Wow! Its sad how many people complain about the cleric being boring or not getting "enough" flavor powers.
Clerics are one of the most dynamic classes that can be played.
Sure the generic cleric in the Core Rules is bland and does not have any abilities like the rogues sneak attack or the fighters skill with weapons. That is because the cleric is not defined by the class as much as he is defined by his god.
A cleric of the God of the Winter Winds will be very different from a cleric of the Goddess of Love. To expect them to be alike is silly.
If you have a deity in mind and a concept for your cleric, then work it out with your GM. A good GM may let you gain certain abilities over time if they fit with your god.
I think that whats wrong is we have folks who are expecting Paizo to build their character for them instead of using their own imaginations.
Wow! Its sad how many people complain about the cleric being boring or not getting "enough" flavor powers.
Clerics are one of the most dynamic classes that can be played.
Sure the generic cleric in the Core Rules is bland and does not have any abilities like the rogues sneak attack or the fighters skill with weapons. That is because the cleric is not defined by the class as much as he is defined by his god.A cleric of the God of the Winter Winds will be very different from a cleric of the Goddess of Love. To expect them to be alike is silly.
If you have a deity in mind and a concept for your cleric, then work it out with your GM. A good GM may let you gain certain abilities over time if they fit with your god.
I think that whats wrong is we have folks who are expecting Paizo to build their character for them instead of using their own imaginations.
Well the clerics answer to the rogue sneak attack or the fighters skill at arms, is energy channeling. I think it was a sneaky trick to steal that from the and give it to certain oracles. Who also spontaneously cast their spell list.
Kinda dirty pool, like giving away fighter only feats to classes that aren't fighters.I think that's the general beef of the thread is that with oracles, clerics are less attractive.
I'm not so sure, with the exception of a Rage Prophet, I'd say Im more likely to play a cleric than an oracle, personally.
Im noticing thesae arguments more and more:
you dont understand how hard it is; how busy we are
you dont have the right to complain
etcPalladium Books started using these same arguments in 2000. Thats why so many of us die-hard fans told them where to go and happily took our money elsewhere. Now the company has to beg to stay alive. I dont think Paizo wants the same fate.
If theres enough complaints to generate 6 or more pages, there must be a problem.
If you haven't noticed it's not the Paizo crew making the arguements your complaining about, it's fans. As for Palladium, I think quality had as much to do with their near demise as any lack of attention paid to their fans. Paizo doesn't seem to be in any danger of going that route. The quantity of complaints doesn't have much to do with the reality of issues. It may, or may not, have any basis in reality. It does indicate that some people have issue, but short of hard data you can't say what proportion do have an issue with the Cleric or whether there really is an issue. A lot of posts is impressive on the surface, but it can be a matter of a few people posting a lot (and no, I haven't run a head count on how many are complaing vs. defending -- it still wouldn't mean much).
And its not a problem of "power".
In 2E, we used fighters to teach people how to play because it was the simplest, lamest, boringest character, and everyone was happy to provide advice if you didnt know what to do. APG fixed that.
Now, its the Cleric.
Fighters were the simplest. Clerics really aren't that simple. Any class is boring, if the campaign is boring. Characters exist in a world that should be interesting / exciting. Players shouldn't have to count on their stats / abilities for "entertainment". The Cleric seems vanilla, because without the intricacies of his god / church / religion he's devoid of a lot of color.
As for the 2 skill points per level, I don't have an issue with it. You want a skilled Cleric -- make him intelligent. My 2 cp.
stuff
I usually don't answer posts like yours, but I make an exception. I use a spoiler since my answer has nothing to with this thread.
Boring is as boring does. As I think has been noted, some people find clerics very engaging.
They are boring.
Sure you can pick 3 words out of context so you can reply with some cool one liners, but it's not very mature.
As for the argument, " some people find clerics very engaging ", it's been noted, but it's also been noted that some don't.
Using argument like "my father is stronger than your father" is not productive nor mature. I respect people that don't agree with me, but I don't respect jerks.
Trolling won't get you anywhere in this thread or in any thread. Any further post by you will be ignored unless you want to engage in a mature and/or productive debate.
And no, you don't have to agree with me or the OP to be mature and/or productive debate.
If you have any creative advice go ahead.
If you don't have any advice to give, but think the cleric is fine that's OK too. But try to use arguments.
Stuff like "me and my homeboys think" does not count as an argument.
stuffI usually don't answer posts like yours, but I make an exception. I use a spoiler since my answer has nothing to with this thread.
** spoiler omitted **
Zark, you need to relax. Your posts are usually a bit more reasoned than this. You made a value judgement "boring", he replied basically that they are not. It's a "you said this" and "he said that" kind of thing. Opinions. No need to get wound about it unless there's something I've missed further upthread...
Said stuff mostly answered by Beckett
Well some people are always busy and still get stuff done. It's not a matter of recourses. It's a matter of attitude and it's a matter of prioritizing.
Core book came out - no errata, no FAQ. Paizo promised they would fix this. Nothing.
Fans like The Wraith and Kor - Orc Scrollkeepereven created lists and documents presenting page references and everything. Paizo met their fan base with:
- Give us some more time, We are working on it, but keep up the good work we are watching this.
They have been repeating this for almost 2 years. When they finally did publish the errata people got mad because it only address 3% of the issues that needed attention and instead of dealing with conflicted errors they mostly dealt with minor errors like, typos, etc.
James J. had been defending JB and trying to cool down the crowds. When the errata finally came out he wrongfully was almost lynched, since Eric and JB hide. Eventually Eric came crawling and apologized.
Same thing now, with the FAQ: Eric and James J. trying to cool people down. Reading James posts it's obvious he is not pleased how Errata and FAQ has been dealt with, or hasn't been handled. Eric is apologizing from time to time and reassures us they just got one more project do deal with.
One of Paizo's problems (so they claimed anyway) with the FAQ was it would demand much work creating FAQ-documents.
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010, 06:04 PM I gave them the suggestion to create a FAQ like the one they are using now. That's almost 1,5 years ago.
Paizo staff will always be busy, telling fans to keep on waiting as long as they are busy is not smart.
Let's take another example
Which spell levels does cleric players mostly have issues with?
Obviously not all players agree but from what I've read/heard it's 1, 3, 7, 8.
The ones that keeps get mentioned by all (that have an issue with the spell list) are 7th and 8th spell level but it's fair to say most agree that 7th spell level is the most problematic one.
Then there is a general consensus that there simply aren't any good healing spells after spell level 4 with the exception of heal and mass heal. There also is a lack of good buff and protection spells at higher level. (When I mean buff I don't mean self buff).
Let's look at the APG.
So Paizo don't have the time and recourses to create two or three 7th level spells but they can create 30 other spells?
They don't have the time and recourses to create any good healing or protection spells at 7 and 8 spell level but they can create 30 other cleric spells.
As for utility spells that scale with level on spell level 1 and 3, the APG didn't really give the cleric anything fantastic, but the cleric did get 30 other spells.
I bought the APG, it disappointed me. Sure the APG had some nice stuff, I love the ranger archetypes, some of the Barbarian stuff, The Oracle, The Arcane Duelist, etc. But some stuff still needs a fix.
I'm not sure I'll get the next book or any more books from Paizo.
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I bought the APG, it disappointed me. Sure the APG had some nice stuff, I love the ranger archetypes, some of the Barbarian stuff, The Oracle, The Arcane Duelist, etc. But some stuff still needs a fix.
I'm not sure I'll get the next book or any more books from Paizo.
I almost cried there for a second. Almost.
Going with the "I'll cry and I'll stop breathing and I'll stop buying your products because there aren't enough cool level 7 spells for the class that's widely considered as one of the most powerful in the game" routine isn't exactly going to swoon crowds into your favour :)
I almost cried there for a second. Almost.
I can still buy the pdf:s. :-)
Point was, fan base and customers do matter.Whether I buy the next book or not has nothing to do with this thread. It more a question of me not liking HOW thing are handled. I still love JJ, but I'm not so sure about JB. I'm starting to see a splat book trend that takes all their time and leaves no time, recourses and focus on details.
edit: It wasn't meant to "swoon crowds into" my favour.
Enough thread jacking. Back to the cleric.
edit 2: I'm sure someone can link you to an online dictionary since you obviosly do NOT know the meaning of NOT, as in "it's NOT a matter of power" :P
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I almost cried there for a second. Almost.I can still buy the pdf:s. :-)
Point was, fan base and customers do matter.
Whether I buy the next book or not has nothing to do with this thread. It more a question of me not liking HOW thing are handled. I still love JJ, but I'm not so sure about JB. I'm starting to see a splat book trend that takes all their time and leaves no time, recourses and focus on details.Enough thread jacking. Back to the cleric.
I'd wait for Ultimate Magic, it being a caster book and all. I suppose that's a good place to spice up Cleric spell list, we'll see how it works out.
I'd wait for Ultimate Magic, it being a caster book and all. I suppose that's a good place to spice up Cleric spell list, we'll see how it works out.
+1.
We'll see how it works out, but I have my doubts. If they didn't get it right the 2nd time why would they the 3rd time.
Pillar of Life can be useful for small armies, summons, and a good shield bash can send an undead inside.
And seriously, I always, always point out stuff I found OP or UP in the APG, there are few, and I fear will not be fixed.
But I HOPE next book wil be at that level. It's full of stuff, I remember the Complete series from WotC and compared to this the 4 books together pale.
Plus, what Gorbacz said.
stuffI usually don't answer posts like yours, but I make an exception. I use a spoiler since my answer has nothing to with this thread.
** spoiler omitted **
Wow, sensitive much?
You took that in entirely the wrong direction. You can't get upset because someone disagrees with you. As far as Paizo responding to customer complaints, are you saying anytime someone has an issue with the game Pathfinder should hurry to change it?
Some people think the Cleric is boring and that's fine. Personally I think Monks, Druids, and Fighters are boring (Druids have two options, Fighters have lots of feats but everyone chooses between like 3 paths, Monks are pretty close to the same and suck at low levels). They are all just as simply played as the cleric. There's a thread claiming the suckness of every class, SO I doubt they are on the Paizo radar, but regardless these guys keep putting out good material so I'm sure you'll have some options in the future.
bla bla bla
A) You are not Wicht
B) Your English is clearly worse than mine since you haven't noticed I didn't have a problem with Wicht disagreeing with me.
As Zurai pointed out once:
Haste is stronger than bless, prayer, and heroes' feast. Holy aura is a stronger defensive buff, but I'd rather have haste than holy aura in 9 fights out of 10, especially as it doesn't take an 8th level spell slot. Not that there's much else useful at 8th level on the Cleric list; 7th, 8th, and 9th level suck because they're still suffering the effects of the 2nd edition Cleric list stopping at 7th level, so all those 7th level spells had to be spread out over three levels in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder, and frequently without notable improvements.
This is probably one of the reasons why I don't like Clerics at higher levels. 7th level spells had to be spread out over three levels in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder.
But Pathfinder have more stuff do deal with when if comes to games at higher levels, say +9. The lack of buffs in the game is a good example.
At level 7 a bard can give the best buff in the game: Inspire competence +3 + Haste + Good Hope. 7 levels later (at level 14) it's still the best buff in the game.
So high level game are still a problem, be it a Monk, Cleric or Bard.
BTW, I found this little gem in another thrad:
+101.
That's why people are leaving the cleric for Paldin, Witch, Oracle or even Inquisitor.Clerics should not be healers exclusively in any way or form. I would much rather see a cleric of specific beliefs doing stuff that suits his religion, divine patron, or principles the most.
ie.
Cleric of god of thievery should steal, betray and lie for example and use powers that supplement those abilities.Cleric of god of storms should smite enemies with holy lightnings.
Cleric of warrior gods or ethos should use powers that supplement and increase their combat prowess.
The reason people are leaving clerics to other divine classes is because other classes are more fun and more specific and much more suitable for a specific task or divine patronage role play wise.
Clerics are still too generic and boring. They are still powerful, but the gap is closing and people choose to play what they see as most fun.
Imo, Clerics have an awesome potential for versatility and role play but they are still tucked into their generic 'every cleric is the same' roles. Game mechanics are dragging clerics down, new/revised classes are simply much more fun to play and much more rewarding if you want to be a role player, and role playing is what this game is about after all.
My bold.
It's not a matter of power, or skill points per level, or even crapy spell list. They are "still tucked into their generic 'every cleric is the same' roles".
I just dont agree with the cleric being boring.
I do tend to avoid cleric, basically because it's too powerful when built right and doesn't leave much of a challenge.
With bards, druids, inquisitors or witches doing the healing, you are always "scrambling" for the healing and it never feels like you have enough, so gives you the 'edge of your seat' are we gonna make it feel.
a cleric in the party, it's like a steam roll.
although I'll have to say, in carrion crown, I really like my inquisitor, but, I really wish I had played a cleric, I'd be tooling EVERYthing!
I bought the APG, it disappointed me. Sure the APG had some nice stuff, I love the ranger archetypes, some of the Barbarian stuff, The Oracle, The Arcane Duelist, etc. But some stuff still needs a fix.
I'm not sure I'll get the next book or any more books from Paizo.
I almost cried there for a second. Almost.
Going with the "I'll cry and I'll stop breathing and I'll stop buying your products because there aren't enough cool level 7 spells for the class that's widely considered as one of the most powerful in the game" routine isn't exactly going to swoon crowds into your favour :)
Actually, I was truly enjoying the majority of this thread, including Zark's arguments, until this became a "let's hate on Paizo" thread. I don't think that accomplishes anything at all, and is completely unnecessary. Paizo is a great company, and the product they've put out has been pretty top-notch with some occasional exceptions, but no one can be 100% perfect with that.
On to the topic at hand.
I can see the point of where people are going with the lack of any real progressive abilities as they level. A lot has been said about what Paizo should do to fix it (spells, new domain stuff, etc.).
My question is this: based purely on what Paizo does have available, what kinds of things might we be able to do with clerics on our own that may improve the problem of boredom while leveling without breaking the class balance? I'm not necessary saying creating new spells here (always an option), but simply taking existing mechanics and fooling around to help make clerics more appetizing for level progression.
My question is this: based purely on what Paizo does have available, what kinds of things might we be able to do with clerics on our own that may improve the problem of boredom while leveling without breaking the class balance? I'm not necessary saying creating new spells here (always an option), but simply taking existing mechanics and fooling around to help make clerics more appetizing for level progression.
Clerics have channel energy, and feats to modify it. Perhaps at higher levels the channel ability needs to be able to cure (or inflict) status ailments as a built-in alternative to healing or wounding others. Say, at levels 5/10/15/20 expend a use of channel energy to do something/inflict something new. Cure fatigue/exhaustion I could see; sickness, nausea, stunning also come to mind.
Clerics also have domains. If we go this route, maybe they should grow into the ability to spontaneously cast those spells. Start at level 4, every 2 levels thereafter they can pick a domain spell from their domains and they could now spontaneously cast it. That could certainly make clerics seem a bit different even with the same domains.
My question is this: based purely on what Paizo does have available, what kinds of things might we be able to do with clerics on our own that may improve the problem of boredom while leveling without breaking the class balance? I'm not necessary saying creating new spells here (always an option), but simply taking existing mechanics and fooling around to help make clerics more appetizing for level progression.
Clerics have channel energy, and feats to modify it. Perhaps at higher levels the channel ability needs to be able to cure (or inflict) status ailments as a built-in alternative to healing or wounding others. Say, at levels 5/10/15/20 expend a use of channel energy to do something/inflict something new. Cure fatigue/exhaustion I could see; sickness, nausea, stunning also come to mind.
Clerics also have domains. If we go this route, maybe they should grow into the ability to spontaneously cast those spells. Start at level 4, every 2 levels thereafter they can pick a domain spell from their domains and they could now spontaneously cast it. That could certainly make clerics seem a bit different even with the same domains.
I think the domains for clerics and schools for wizards were always a little lackluster...
Clerics have channel energy, and feats to modify it. Perhaps at higher levels the channel ability needs to be able to cure (or inflict) status ailments as a built-in alternative to healing or wounding others. Say, at levels 5/10/15/20 expend a use of channel energy to do something/inflict something new. Cure fatigue/exhaustion I could see; sickness, nausea, stunning also come to mind.
Clerics also have domains. If we go this route, maybe they should grow into the ability to spontaneously cast those spells. Start at level 4, every 2 levels thereafter they can pick a domain spell from their domains and they could now spontaneously cast it. That could certainly make clerics seem a bit different even with the same domains.
This is exactly the best suggestion I have sever seen regarding changing clerics. MAking the turns similar to a paladin's lays or adding domain spells to the spells they can cast spontaneously...Bravo
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I think the domains for clerics and schools for wizards were always a little lackluster...
The biggest problem with them is, once you hit 8th level at the latest, there's no reason to not prestige class out. Few of the domains give anything but more uses of the same ability. The few things that do improve are generally energy resistance. Wizard schools have much the same problem, barring rare examples like the Divination 20th level ability.
Alignment Channel, Channel Smite, Command Undead, Elemental Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Selective Channeling, Turn Undead
I see there are eight channel-specific feats (and possibly more to come with the Ultimate Magic later this month). Perhaps giving clerics a bonus channeling feat every six levels so that they get a couple extra feats to help with their versatility, as well?
The biggest problem with them is, once you hit 8th level at the latest, there's no reason to not prestige class out. Few of the domains give anything but more uses of the same ability. The few things that do improve are generally energy resistance. Wizard schools have much the same problem, barring rare examples like the Divination 20th level ability.
I think the domains for clerics and schools for wizards were always a little lackluster...
What i meant but lackluster, is they really stink...
What i meant but lackluster, is they really stink...The biggest problem with them is, once you hit 8th level at the latest, there's no reason to not prestige class out. Few of the domains give anything but more uses of the same ability. The few things that do improve are generally energy resistance. Wizard schools have much the same problem, barring rare examples like the Divination 20th level ability.
I think the domains for clerics and schools for wizards were always a little lackluster...
I don't necessarily think that's true. One of my players in our current SS campaign is a diviner, and he uses his abilities quite creatively and in ways that they really help turn the tide of combat. His diviner ability to always go on surprise rounds comes in handy as well, especially since his perception score is quite low! Perhaps none of them are incredibly powerful, but they can be incredibly useful.
Sure, they're useful. But once you get them, unless you are constantly running out of them, what incentive do you have to continue on with only more uses per day coming?
This is actually one of the best explanations of where the cleric starts to have problems. The abilities they get from domains and the general class are really cool at first, but generally simply increasing the number of them available, or even improving their effect moderately really doesn't do much. There are some exceptions, but for the most part, their damage (or healing, in the case of channel energy) tends not to scale enough for the scaling to matter more than 5 levels after you get it, and generally they aren't used enough to justify simply increasing the number of them available.
You are right, Sub-creator, in that there are currently channel energy feats out there, but most people don't bother with them as they are just as situational in use as the majority of their spell list and domain abilities. I like your idea of giving the cleric bonus channel feats, though I would probably make it more like every 5, to keep it along the lines of how the wizard is structured. Lathiira also has good ideas. Both work within the bounds of the existing structure, but make channel energy and domains far more useful.
With the clerical domains, I can see your point. After that second domain power is granted, there's very little to influence you beyond love of character concept.
Would it be possible to play with the sub-domains in this case as additions, instead of replacements as levels progress, but tweaked a bit so as to make them more potent for the higher level? Perhaps turn standard actions into swift or immediate actions to make them more likely to be useful, and maybe up the power level of some of the bonuses so they're on par?
As we gain more spells via APG and UM, would it be viable to add an additional spell to the domain spell lists per level, as well? This would give the domain lists more significance, perhaps, and make for more versatility. Just tossing out possible ideas.
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As we gain more spells via APG and UM, would it be viable to add an additional spell to the domain spell lists per level, as well? This would give the domain lists more significance, perhaps, and make for more versatility. Just tossing out possible ideas.
I don't see how that would help, honestly. You would still be stuck with 1 spell per spell level, unless you mean add them to the Cleric spell list? SubDomains only offer 2 or 3 new spells, and most are already Cleric spells.
It might just be me, but there is only one Cleric spell in the APG I would ever even use.
Alignment Channel, Channel Smite, Command Undead, Elemental Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Selective Channeling, Turn Undead
Quantity doesn't count, quality does. And as long as channeling doesn't scale, feats like Alignment Channel, Elemental Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Selective Channeling will suck.
As for Channeling Feats, while so far I am not all that impressed with what we have seen from Ultimate Magic, at least we know there is Quicken Channeling
Cool, can you link to the source?
I will still play the game and still buy the PDF:s, and if I'm not going to spend money on books I don't like or want, that does not make me a Paizo hater. So cut down on the hyperbol.
As for the Cleric. I usually play Paladin, Cleric, Rogue (with some charisma) or Bard. So I don't hate clerics as well.
I just don't think the talk about addressing issues because one is a paying customer has any relevance to this discussion is all. Paizo may or may not do some fixes on their own, but there's a lot of paying customers out there that have a lot of opinions on what should be fixed as far as game mechanics go, but taking that stance means very little on the overall. They do what they can as they can. When the thread hit this particular note, it started going in the wrong direction. That was the point I was trying to make, so sorry if it offended.
You've thrown out a lot of arguments, and a great many are valid in their own way. However, instead of getting on the company to fix it, perhaps we have the tools to do some of that fixing ourselves. The spells will be difficult (though with UM coming, maybe the answers to that are just around the corner), but let's try to throw out ideas as to how the level progression doldrums can be fixed ourselves. I think it's possible to do so as long as we keep our thoughts focused on the issue at hand, and not to that which is out of our control, such as how quickly Paizo may get to it, if ever.
As we gain more spells via APG and UM, would it be viable to add an additional spell to the domain spell lists per level, as well? This would give the domain lists more significance, perhaps, and make for more versatility. Just tossing out possible ideas.I don't see how that would help, honestly. You would still be stuck with 1 spell per spell level, unless you mean add them to the Cleric spell list? SubDomains only offer 2 or 3 new spells, and most are already Cleric spells.
It might just be me, but there is only one Cleric spell in the APG I would ever even use.
I actually like the idea of more domain spells. It would help differentiate clerics of the same fate. I know it more a question of falvor, but yet I like it. And it would add more versatility.
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As for Channeling Feats, while so far I am not all that impressed with what we have seen from Ultimate Magic, at least we know there is Quicken ChannelingCool, can you link to the source?
I just noticed it somewhere in the first Ult Magic Blog. I'll check.
Ultimate Magic Blog Listed as a bonus Feat for the Undead Lord Archtype.
Alignment Channel, Channel Smite, Command Undead, Elemental Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Selective Channeling, Turn UndeadQuantity doesn't count, quality does. And as long as channeling doesn't scale, feats like Alignment Channel, Elemental Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Selective Channeling will suck.
Well, my intention here was to help give clerics bonuses to a main mechanic of theirs so that they could still take other feats at odd levels to make them more versatile on the overall. Again, it was only a thought.
Also, what about tacking on the clerics Wisdom modifier to channeling damage/healing? Perhaps not a huge thing, but I've got a player in my SS campaign that's an alchemist, and that additional Int modifier damage he gets to his bombs can make a difference, especially now that he's up to something like a +8 to it. Or, perhaps give them their Wisdom mod + 1 point per 2 levels of additional healing/damage to help make the channeling more significant.
Agreed, but it lends a bit more potency to the channeling ability, which might help to make some of the other stuff more significant in the long run. I'm getting from a lot of this conversation that channeling becomes useless somewhere around 5th-7th level . . . if it was less useless than perhaps some of the other ideas thrown up here would be less so, as well. ;)
Hey I'm all for the clerics have more spells like the wizard's high level spell list --
Just as soon as they take on arcane spell failure, poor BAB and Hit Dice, carrying a spellbook, and lose a good save throw.
After all if that's 'balanced' for the wizard it should be so for the cleric too.
Hey I'm all for the clerics have more spells like the wizard's high level spell list --
Just as soon as they take on arcane spell failure, poor BAB and Hit Dice, carrying a spellbook, and lose a good save throw.
After all if that's 'balanced' for the wizard it should be so for the cleric too.
I don't think anyone is saying that the cleric needs a lot of wizard type spells at those levels, but 1 or 2 per level isn't going to unbalance the class, and will give some oomph to a spell list that started at 7 levels and had to be stretched to 9, leaving the last 3 spell levels somewhat lean.
I don't think anyone is saying that the cleric needs a lot of wizard type spells at those levels, but 1 or 2 per level isn't going to unbalance the class, and will give some oomph to a spell list that started at 7 levels and had to be stretched to 9, leaving the last 3 spell levels somewhat lean.Hey I'm all for the clerics have more spells like the wizard's high level spell list --
Just as soon as they take on arcane spell failure, poor BAB and Hit Dice, carrying a spellbook, and lose a good save throw.
After all if that's 'balanced' for the wizard it should be so for the cleric too.
So... we have more of the same right? More "You got to have this spell and OMG clerics are boring because they only have these few spells that are worth while!"
Except the power creep pushes them further ahead again.
If you are that concerned about the power creep, maybe the cleric needs to be turned into a partial caster with spells similar to a bard. Right now, the last 3 levels are so stretched out that they have next to nothing anyway, so the few spells that are worth saving at those levels could be easily enough incorporated into the remaining six levels. This, though, would be a major change to do when a new edition is developed. In the meantime, you have a supposedly full caster, but the last 3 levels are really only one level of spells, so they aren't actually a full caster. The challenge is how to make them feel like a full caster at those levels without creating CODzilla, and many here have good suggestions for doing so. Simply yelling "Power Creep" without looking to see what some of these ideas might end up looking like after refinement helps neither the class nor the game as a whole.
I'm yelling power creep at the idea of "throw more spells at it!"
There are several other general points made that I'm not adverse to in this thread -- but throw more spells at it is one that I am adverse too.
Now if the cleric was to go more the way of the bard that wouldn't hurt my feelings any.
I'm yelling power creep at the idea of "throw more spells at it!"
There are several other general points made that I'm not adverse to in this thread -- but throw more spells at it is one that I am adverse too.
Now if the cleric was to go more the way of the bard that wouldn't hurt my feelings any.
Unfortunately, there are enough people here who oppose the expansion of domain powers or channel energy that "throw more spells at it" is the only other short term solution available. I personally think it should be a mix of tweaking the spell list, domain powers, and other abilities all at the same time, but that would take a lot of time and effort. "Throw more spells at it," is quick, it deals with the one truly customizable feature of the class, and at least for the short term, is the one of the few things that can be done within the current framework. I agree that it not the best long term solution, but for the short term, it's just about the only thing available.
The biggest problem with them is, once you hit 8th level at the latest, there's no reason to not prestige class out. Few of the domains give anything but more uses of the same ability. The few things that do improve are generally energy resistance. Wizard schools have much the same problem, barring rare examples like the Divination 20th level ability.
+1 I agree but it's no easy fix for individual domains there are tons more domain combinations then there are bloodlines, paths, and schools. I have an idea on how we can actually give some incentive to take the class past 8th
Alignment Channel, Channel Smite, Command Undead, Elemental Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Selective Channeling, Turn UndeadQuantity doesn't count, quality does. And as long as channeling doesn't scale, feats like Alignment Channel, Elemental Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Selective Channeling will suck.
+1 and a point I made in my guide. Channeling simply sucks after lvl5
So at some point in the future I'm going to write a quick and dirty fix to the cleric that won't add but one or two pieces of new material that should bring them in line to other classes design philosophies. Thus far here are the ideas I've had.
~More domains: Give them access to more domains over time. This actually allows the cleric to represent more fully what his/her god is all about and represent all aspects of that god it also gives them more toys.
~Bonus Feats: NAmely bonus channeling feats. This actually helps make the feats themselves much more viable since you don't have to agonize as much about using a precious feat slot on them. It also goes a long way to helping improve your channeling and gives you incentive to invest a touch in it.
~Capstone: I'm thinking the monk's capstone is a good model to base it off of perhaps becoming a living Saint to your god at 20th.
~Spontaneous Domain Casting: I'm for doing away entirely with Cure/Inflict spontaneity. It's a hold over we can honestly do without. Instead I'd want clerics to be able to spontaneously cast spells from their domains. With the addition of more domains over time this becomes a rather good ability.
~Domain Shenanigans: I'm thinking give the clerics some means of combining their domain abilities maybe allowing them to use multiple touch powers in concert (but not spells) activate more than one ability at once, etc. Give them that unique wrath of the gods feel.
Anyway thoughts are welcome.
How about archetypes making channeling better?
For example
'If you take a channeling archetype, it modifies your channel energy and you cannot take your second domain.
Positive Energy archetype: (Associated domain- Any Healing or related subdomain)
Every time you channel Positive Energy to heal or harm undead, you add your cleric level to the result. EG a 20th level cleric can channel 10d6 +20 to heal living creatures or harm undead.
This ability also works with alignment channel.
Negative Energy archetype: Associated with Death, Evil domain and related subdomains: As above but for negative channel.
Community guide: Cleric must take community domain or a related subdomain.
Effect- Every time you gain a new level of channel energy your channel gains an effect similar to the Paladins mercy class feature, affecting all selected creatures in the radius. A channel may only carry one mercyat a time.
War Cry channel: Associated with the War, Strength, Glory domains and any related subdomains: Any time you channelto heal those effected gain a sacred bonus to damage for their next attack equal to 1/2 your cleric level.
When you channel to hurt those effected subtract 1/2 your level from damage, if they save against the channel the subtracted penalty is halved.
This ability only effects Wpn attacks
Also some better channeling feats
Empower channel- by spending 2 channel energy uses you can spontaneously empower your channel.
Maximised channel- by spending 4uses of channel you may maximise the.channel dice.
Blinding Burst- when you positively channel to harm undead, any creatures affected that fail the save are blinded for 1 round. Those who succeed are only partially effected and treat others as having partial concealment.
This ability also works on creatures subject to alignment channel.
Over Channel- you can do extra harm at expense of your health.
Any offensive channel carries an equal amount of fire damage (if you channel positive energy) or cold damage (if you channel negatively). In order to do this.you must open your soul to the relevant plane and suffer harm equal to the channeling.
~Spontaneous Domain Casting: I'm for doing away entirely with Cure/Inflict spontaneity. It's a hold over we can honestly do without.
I have to disagree here, spontaneous casting heal spells is one big bonus of the cleric, I can't even count the number this rescues one of my team mates.
Nobody likes the idea of expanding channels uses?
Given the associations of
Positive Energy, Healing, Blinding Light, Condition removal, Buffing
and
Negative Energy, Inflicting, Impenetrable Darkenss, Inflicting Conditions, Debuffing
I'm sure there's new directions to take it,(as I outlined earlier)
adding scaleable related powers (at the cost of a domain)
or
Meta-channel feats
could surely add some carrots to stay in?