Well that's pretty interesting stuff there. Mr. Reynolds seems to think that there is in fact no action for retrieving a component and its action is subsumed into casting a spell.While it could be a free action, I believe you are correct. With the exception of unusual components (such as maybe a potion), I think the readying of normal spell components is part of the action of casting. Treating it any other way would have a very negative interaction with the oracle's haunted curse.
Since you technically do not retrieve the components as a seperate action by RAW, you can bypass the effects of the haunted curse.Haunted: Malevolent spirits follow you wherever you go,
causing minor mishaps and strange occurrences (such as unexpected breezes, small objects moving on their own, and faint noises). Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction.
This is the best rationale I've heard to include the preparation of spell components as subsumed in the casting of a spell, as otherwise the effects would be unjustly deleterious to the Haunted Oracle.
I do still maintain that the mock-preparation of spell components should be a free action (Example: pursuant to a bards' bluff check to make someone think that one has cast a spell - to be sure, the bluff itself would need to take a standard action, but surely if one was incapable of retrieving the component materials as other than a move action such a bluff would easily fail, as the observers could tell that the bluffer had taken too long with the material components), and that therefore, the preparation of spell components is a free action regardless of the context (with a specific exception for actually casting a spell wherein the prep is subsumed in the casting).
Continuing the aside, I'd say that there's no limitation on putting a potion into a spell component pouch, merely that the pouch doesn't come with such a potion included when you buy it.
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.
That's a very good point. However, a spell component pouch is not defined as a container. It is only what the description states it is, a pouch holding a caster's minor spell casting components. The rules don't give the option to add anything to it; per the game's rules, it's a package deal.
And moving 10 ft doesn't take the same amount of time as moving 20 (assuming we're talking about the same character)Of course it doesn't - but it still takes the same amount of game actions, even though one takes demonstrably more "real world time" than the other.
The point is that the cost of an action in the context of Actions in the Round is derived from and based on the real world abilities of people. Thus, when deciding what kind of game action (Standard, move, swift, free, etc.) a particular action in life would take, the comparison to other live actions is what should be considered, not a comparison to "what slot of game actions does this best fit into?" Similarly, when I think about what my character looks like executing his actions for the round, if I've moved 10' and thrown a vial of acid, I'm going to be imagining walking and a throw, whereas if I moved 30' and threw the acid, I'd imagine a brisk hustle and a throw, maybe with a smidgeon of balance recovery at the end after the throw.
Which is the same reason moving 35 feet does not as you state, take twice as long,Except, of course, that it does - it takes 2 move actions, instead of 1.
Taking two move actions rather than taking one move action does not necessarily automatically equate to "taking twice as long", just to "taking enough time that there is no time left to do anything else substantial" (where substantial means another move or a standard action). Of course, yes, it has taken 2x move actions. But consider the following diagram:
|-----------|-----------| -- This is representative of two move actions: the vertical lines are action-measures.
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| -- This is representative of 5' distances: the vertical lines mark off 5'.
Joe (speed 30) moves 3'. This takes two move actions, and he travels 35'
|-----------| -- one move action
|-|-|-|-|-|-| -- 30'
Joe (speed 30) moves 35'. This takes two move actions, and he travels 35'
|-----------|-----------| -- two move actions
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| -- 35'
Note that 2x moves =/= 2x30. The same dichotomy can apply to time, where 2x actions =/= 2x time.
That's a very good point. However, a spell component pouch is not defined as a container. It is only what the description states it is, a pouch holding a caster's minor spell casting components. The rules don't give the option to add anything to it; per the game's rules, it's a package deal.Continuing the aside, I'd say that there's no limitation on putting a potion into a spell component pouch, merely that the pouch doesn't come with such a potion included when you buy it.
A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch.
I like it when my point is made in a totally different fashion by the person with whom I am disagreeing.
There is no fundamental difference between Patryn's recognition of well-defined item (spell component pouch), not defined as a container, as an object having the property of containers, in that things can be put into it, and my recognition of a well-defined state of item-carrying (secured close at hand), not defined as anything other than storage, as having the property of making whatever item is so-carried available via a free action.
Exactly - especially since the alchemist can hand it to someone else.(It doesn't do anything for the other person, but they can certainly hold on to it for him.)
Unless it's infused.
Either way, An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action.
Taking two move actions rather than taking one move action does not necessarily automatically equate to "taking twice as long", just to "taking enough time that there is no time left to do anything else substantial" (where substantial means another move or a standard action).Excellent!
Retrieving your cell phone doesn't equate to "taking all of a move action," just to "taking enough time that there is less time left to do anything else substantial" (where substantial means another move or a standard action, and now you can do only one or the other).
I disagree, and so would you if you had seen my phone-jutsu...
I can imagine that a Hero or Adventurer could certainly (1) get his netbook out of his briefcase, (2) get a flash drive out of another briefcase, and (3) take his phone out and have it in-hand within 6 seconds.
(1) and (2) are move actions, both of which provoke AoOs. I stipulate this. But since our guy can do all three things in six seconds, clearly (3) is a swift action at best.
Seriously, to me, this is something that an Adventurer *ought* to be able to do.
EDIT:
Also, if retrieving my cell phone doesn't equate to "taking all of a move action," isn't that enough to justify reducing it to some less-significant action measure such as Swift or Free?
Exactly - especially since the alchemist can hand it to someone else.(It doesn't do anything for the other person, but they can certainly hold on to it for him.)
Unless it's infused.
Either way, An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action.
I knew there were more examples to be had. (Granted, this is not "draw as a free action and drink as a standard action, but it lends some support to my general thesis that small items can be arranged so as to be drawn as a free action.)
Thanks for the link to the explicit rule.
I like it when my point is made in a totally different fashion by the person with whom I am disagreeing.
Don't be so quick to claim vctory. Elvenshae wasn't recognizing well-defined objects, I was. I'm making a point to stay well clear of your particular disagreement. I think it's silly.
I like it when my point is made in a totally different fashion by the person with whom I am disagreeing.Don't be so quick to claim vctory. Elvenshae wasn't recognizing well-defined objects, I was. I'm making a point to stay well clear of your particular disagreement. I think it's silly.
Oh, no, please, I took your comment as an exposé of Elvenshae's commission of the very affront I stand accused of - making a common-sense ruling that is unsupported by the rules exactly as they are written.
To be clear, I agree that a potion could be placed into a spell component pouch, inasmuch as a spell component pouch is a pouch (common-sensically a container) that is sold already containing spell components. Presumably, since it is not magical, nothing would prevent after-market modification, such as the insertion of a potion, provided that the pouch was large enough to hold it.
EDIT:
I think it's of great importance to recognize that the rules are at least a second-order logical construct, being comprised of collections of ordered language. (Language being at least a first-order logical construct that defines the relation between words and concepts.) As such, the rules are the inheritors of general concepts that apply to the construct of which they are formed, and barring explicit definition, words and phrases mean what they mean in language and context as a whole. Thus, a pouch is a container even though the Pathfinder rules never make that connection. Similarly, while the descriptor "stored" may be abstractly applied to my hip-mounted iPhone, in the context of how much trouble it is to bring to hand as discussed in the Actions in Combat table, my iPhone is not stored.
Also, if retrieving my cell phone doesn't equate to "taking all of a move action," isn't that enough to justify reducing it to some less-significant action measure such as Swift or Free?Sure - if you expend the character resources (in this case, gold) to buy a "masterwork cell phone holder," an item which says, "You can store a single cell phone in this holder as a move action that provokes an AoO; retrieving it can be performed as a free action once per round that does not provoke an AoO."
Elsewise, no, you can't, and it's a move action.
I mean, how long does it take to get a bow off your shoulder and ready to shoot - a second? two? Or draw a knife?
And yet, those are move actions, too.
Sure, combat trained people get to do them as free actions as part of a move, but that's a special exception that doesn't apply to things that are close to sorta being weaponlike (like wands).
Excellent. I'll make a masterwork cell phone holder using materials I gather. My Craft (relevant) modifier is +5, how long does it take, at no cost to me other than time?
And moving 10 ft doesn't take the same amount of time as moving 20 (assuming we're talking about the same character)Of course it doesn't - but it still takes the same amount of game actions, even though one takes demonstrably more "real world time" than the other.
Which is the same reason moving 35 feet does not as you state, take twice as long,Except, of course, that it does - it takes 2 move actions, instead of 1.
How does intent make a distinction of action?I don't think I know how to parse that such that it makes sense.
Retreiving a spell component is a separate action from casting the spell that uses it. It's just that, while you're casting the spell, retrieving the spell component is a free action instead of a move action.
Whoa man, it's like you agreed and then you didn't. Moving ten feet takes half as much time as moving twenty. Moving 35 feet takes 1/6th more time than moving 30. Actions types (move, standard) do NOT have a set amount of time, they're much more closely tied to effort required. You can't make the statement that taking two move actions takes twice as long as one. Especially if, at the same time, you're going to say grabbing something ready at hand is still considered a move action, because it's definitely quicker than moving thirty feet.
You still haven't explained how it makes sense that pulling out my bat guano to cast fireball is a free action (separate from the action of casting) yet pulling out guano in exactly the same fashion but not casting fireball, even if I'm pretend casting it, is a move action. EDIT: Other than saying this is what the rules (as you see them) stipulate. And if that's all you got, then all I can say is: Seriously?
Whoa man, it's like you agreed and then you didn't.Reread what started this line of discussion.
Dosk says, "Hey, it takes me not all that long to pull something out of my pocket; since it only takes X seconds, compared to a move action which can take up to Z, shouldn't I be able to do it as less than a move action?"
The answer is, "No - you've already accepted that it costs you a whole move action to move 30' or 5', and when you just move 5' you don't get 'change' that you can apply to something else. That's just the way the game works."
Or, in other words, Dosk is arguing that, if I want to move 35', and I take a move action to move 30', I should be able to take, say, a swift action to move the remaining 5', because moving 5' takes so much less time than moving 30'. I should get a "discount" on the action type to move 5' because the real-world time measurement is so much less.
That isn't the way the game works.
EDIT: Other than saying this is what the rules (as you see them) stipulate. And if that's all you got, then all I can say is: Seriously?You did notice that we're in the Rules forum, right? Not the House Rules discussion area?
If you want to change the rules or add new ones, go ahead. But do it in a different thread.
Oh yeah, the RULES forum. Let me put on my blinders to anything not expressly stated in the rules. You know, things like I can draw the bat guano out of my pouch as a free action. OH WAIT!! That is in the rules! Yet you still say that performing that action under different circumstances (for no reason other than they don't specifically give you permission, hence my "seriously?") actually makes it a different kind of action. Your parallel for this is moving 5 feet. Except that that distinction is spelled out in the RULES. What isn't spelled out in the rules is whether or not storage/in-hand is a binary system, or open ended. THERE ARE NO RULES about this. Your reading has its justifications, but involve looking at the rules with your blinders on. There is NOTHING IN THE RULES that rules out the possibility to draw bat guano as a free action outside of spellcasting. If the action of drawing components wasn't separate (As even Sean R. seems to think) then it would be clear, but it is a separate action, and that's where the confusion lies.
I can draw the bat guano out of my pouch as a free action.
No, you can draw it as part of casting a spell that uses it.
As part of the Standard Action to cast fireball, you draw the material components from your spell component pouch.
The Standard Action to cast Fireball includes drawing the guano, waving your arms, chanting loudly, pointing your finger, aiming the bead, etc. That does not make those things all free actions that can be taken at any time.
--Edit--
And hey, once again I'm wrong.
From Combat: "Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action."
I can draw the bat guano out of my pouch as a free action.No, you can draw it as part of casting a spell that uses it.
As part of the Standard Action to cast fireball, you draw the material components from your spell component pouch.
The Standard Action to cast Fireball includes drawing the guano, waving your arms, chanting loudly, pointing your finger, aiming the bead, etc. That does not make those things all free actions that can be taken at any time.
--Edit--
And hey, once again I'm wrong.From Combat: "Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action."
Yeah, that's what my sticking point has been all along, I'd be agreeing with Patryn were this the case. There's evidence that the action should be part of casting and not separate from it, but it just plain isn't according to the book.
I guess it does say "preparing" rather than "retrieving" so you could possibly say that "you have to have the proper materials" and they are already prepared in the pouch. So as part of casting you can touch the pouch to make sure the guano is still in there, then it's "annihilated by the spell energies" without actually being drawn.
So, you can "prepare" the materials as a free action (like touching your pocket to make sure you have your keys) but to actually retrieve the item would be a move action.
I guess it does say "preparing" rather than "retrieving" so you could possibly say that "you have to have the proper materials" and they are already prepared in the pouch. So as part of casting you can touch the pouch to make sure the guano is still in there, then it's "annihilated by the spell energies" without actually being drawn.
So, you can "prepare" the materials as a free action (like touching your pocket to make sure you have your keys) but to actually retrieve the item would be a move action.
Interesting thoughts there. The FAQ answer you quoted earlier does say that the components must be retrieved for casting, but it also says it's part of casting.