...I think I've got my spreadsheet fully working now. Pick a level OgeXam, and I'll do a damage comparison of Shield Master vs traditional TWF (both with and without DR).
Could you email me said spreadsheet? thecheesegrinder@gmail.com
I agree on this DPR observation OgeXam. It's a tool to compare things, and very useful, but is not all.
this is one of the reasons I think fighters are considered far better than they objectively are. they defenses suck and if fight smart monsters targeting will and other threats they are stuck and useless quite easily.
Compare to an human superstition barbarian :D
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Results Are Up at this link!
Executive Summary: Shielded Fighter can do more damage given the feats that are easy to plug into a spreadsheet, but the Two-Kukri Fighter has about 30% more unused feats that give him a lot more options (and survivability). Damage Reduction overcome for MOST of the game (lvl 1-20) is about the same for both builds.
The bad news for OgeXam: The only time the DR overcome by Shield Master really gives a boost to shield fighters (or even matters) is about level 11-12. Unfortunately level 11 is the one he cares about the most.
The bad news for shield fighters: The two-kukri fighter will be overcoming some DR around level 8 or 9 that the shield fighter won't be able to.
Could you email me said spreadsheet? thecheesegrinder@gmail.com
Hmmm, not sure if I want one of my primary grinder weapons in the hands of the opposition. Just kidding OgeXam. Its in a shape right now that works fine but is only legible to me. (That's what happens when you keep going "oh, I need to add a column for specialization. Oh, I might be using different main and off-hand weapons. Oh, the crit multiplier might be something other than x2.") I'm going to try to get it better organized this week and I'll see about getting it to you then.
Impressive analysis though I would say that you may want to use a different creature for your 15th level analysis. Using only dr 5/magic is low for what 15th level PCs will come up against. You are more likely to see DR 15/adamantine (Iron Golem CR 13), DR 10/good (Nalfeshnee CR 14) as the normal run of the mill DRs the PCs will be dealing with. Not just 5/magic. At both 10th and 15th level you can pretty much ignore DR #/magic, it is the other types that will really start throwing PCs for a loop.
Can you rerun the numbers vs Iron Golem? Or say DR 10/type you do not have. Where you would have to rely on high enhancement +4 or +5 to bypass DR.
Hmmm, not sure if I want one of my primary grinder weapons in the hands of the opposition. Just kidding OgeXam.
Hahahaha. I like that, your "primary grinder weapon". It makes me happy knowing the players are devising weapons to use against TCG.
I will leak a little insider info on our room design, we almost never think what class types or builds will be in the room, we just build by thinking "doh that is a nasty combo" or "hahaha that's funny" or "Oh I like that song, I can come up with a Cheese Grinder room for that"
hahaha
Just to throw more fuel on the DPR isn't everything camp. Kukri's will crit more often. This allows for more critical mastery abilities to be used. Shield allows for free bull rush, which while useful, is less likely to be successful...
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The feat has actually received official errata. The original version said "shield's shield bonus", while the current version says "shield's enhancement bonus".
Since it would make no sense to make that particular change if Paizo actually wanted it to only add the base shield bonus, I take it to mean that they discussed this, and ended up wanting to have magical enhancements work with the feat after all.
Also, I'm pretty sure I remember one of the other threads discussing this feat features a Dev comment (made after the quoted comment) that says you get the magical enhancement bonus added with this feat.
Are is correct.
JASON!!!!!! (tries to holler loud enough to be heard)
Can you please give us your input on this. Since you are looking at an errata you may want to include something about DR.
There is no need to go to the devs to get a comfort letter on every single issue attached to this game, especially in this case, as Are has so adroitly demonstrated via the use of logic and proper reading of the RAW.
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Results Are Up at this link!
Executive Summary: Shielded Fighter can do more damage given the feats that are easy to plug into a spreadsheet, but the Two-Kukri Fighter has about 30% more unused feats that give him a lot more options (and survivability). Damage Reduction overcome for MOST of the game (lvl 1-20) is about the same for both builds.
i'm curious as to why the scimitar was used instead of a kukri? kukri could be finessed and thus Dex could be bumped up, and instead of power attack one could then use Piranha Strike from the Sargava companion.
Piranha Strike [Combat]
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing
accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove
exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose
to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat
maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage
rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are
making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary
natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4,
and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by
–1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must
choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects
last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply
to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power
Attack feat.
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I'm thinking about a halfling fighter build with main hand staff sling (one handed via ammo drop and juggle load) and offhand shield. Could one use this projectile weapon built fighter in conjunction with Shield Master? (i.e. main hand BAB 11/6/1 at 11th level, plus offhand shield bash via shield master at BAB 11)
Basically, I want a halfling tank with fullplate +5 / light shield +5 specialized in staff sling (so a ranged guy) with shield master on top to take care of people that come within melee range.
I'm hesitating in regards to whether it is possible to have a ranged projectile guy + offhand melee guy (there's a weird feeling at the back of my head that it's only allowable if you go ranged thrown and not ranged projectile...)
Edit: please note that I am aware that you can use the staff sling in melee as club... so the club/light shield part works just as normal... what I'm not sure about is if you can do a offhand attack after a series of projectile attacks (i.e. could a bow guy shoot arrows AND then hit someone within reach with armor spikes, for instance)
Cheers!
@Purple Dragon Knight
Which book is this feat in?
Can you give me a link?
...and the halfling stuff is here
Thank you.
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i'm curious as to why the scimitar was used instead of a kukri? kukri could be finessed and thus Dex could be bumped up, and instead of power attack one could then use Piranha Strike from the Sargava companion.Piranha Strike [Combat]
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing
accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove
exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose
to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat
maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage
rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are
making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary
natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4,
and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by
–1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must
choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects
last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply
to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power
Attack feat.
Several reasons for Scimitar instead of Kukri for the shield fighter
1) More Damage (not much, I know, but 1 per attack matters)1.5) TWF penalties rely on the off-hand weapon, so since I have a light shield, I can use any weapon in my main hand at -2 (before archetype bonuses).
2) Adding Dex doesn't help armor class if I use the TWF archetype, they lose armor training.
2.5) Dex is already at 17 starting, at most I could boost it by 3.
3) Most importantly - Count the Feats! You could swap Power Attack for Pirahna Strike, but I would have to put Weapon Finesse in there somewhere, and I don't want to drop any of the other feats taken.
OgeXam, I'll send you the spreadsheet later tonight or tomorrow, you can plug in enemies to your heart's content. Note that both my level 15 builds have +5 weapons.
I HIGHLY recommend anyone who really thinks deeply about things like DPR try to build your own spreadsheet. Then add things to it. Then add more things. Then take requests. You will really learn a lot about what gives you big advantages.
Oh, and I found an error while working on my spreadsheet. I was slightly overcalculating crits with Bashing Finish, so the actual DPR for the level 15 shield fighter is 236, not 241. (Kukri fighter is still 199.)
EDIT: and I just found a huge mistake while re-reading this post. Power Attack was giving full benefit to off-hand attacks instead of half... more to come.
EDIT: and I just found a huge mistake while re-reading this post. Power Attack was giving full benefit to off-hand attacks instead of half... more to come.
Why did i thought that if you have double slice you add the normal amount of damage from power attack?
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Several reasons for Scimitar instead of Kukri for the shield fighter
1) More Damage (not much, I know, but 1 per attack matters)
1.5) TWF penalties rely on the off-hand weapon, so since I have a light shield, I can use any weapon in my main hand at -2 (before archetype bonuses).
2) Adding Dex doesn't help armor class if I use the TWF archetype, they lose armor training.
2.5) Dex is already at 17 starting, at most I could boost it by 3.
3) Most importantly - Count the Feats! You could swap Power Attack for Pirahna Strike, but I would have to put Weapon Finesse in there somewhere, and I don't want to drop any of the other feats taken.
hmmm... i'd still be curious to see the kukri/piranha strike version... yes you need weapon finesse, but weapon finesse applies to both kukri and the light shield, and the kukri is a crit on 15-20 if you keen it, which makes Bashing Finish awesome-usable 25% of the time... in terms of max dex from armor... just pick another armor. Dex AC trumps Armor AC if you ask me.
PS: was power attack a prereq of other feats in your build? if not, don't see the point of scimitar over kukri... sorry
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I'm still answering questions, I just moved them over to the other thread <found here>. This thread is really supposed to be about "Does Shield Master overcome DR?"
New DPR numbers are up there too.
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Any Devs want to offer their input on this?
It overcoming DR just goes way beyond good right smack in the middle of cheesy and pushing broken.
Let's all FAQ it so we can get some dev input into this subject. I have seen many threads that deal with Shield Master and we can use some developer input.
So after all my spreadsheeting and analysis and in depth answering of questions, I've come to the conclusion that overcoming DR is NOT broken (or even particularly cheesy). Depending on character wealth, there are indeed some levels where a DR-overcoming shield can provide a significant DPR boost while also giving an AC boost. However there are MORE levels (especially before 11) where the non-shield wielder has huge advantages in DPR. Also, the shield wielder is giving up any feats not directly related to shield combat.
Overall, I would just say it's a viable and possible play style. (Just like the choice between two weapons and a big two-hander.)