I wonder how popular the Taldan weapon style of Falcata and Buckler is out there amongst players. Also there is a weapon style archetype called Rondelero in the Inner Sea Primer and I wondered if anyone had created a character with this style.
I think the Falcata is a pretty darn good weapon with the crit range of 19-20/x3, but it takes an Exotic Weapon feat. Also it is the traditional weapon of Taldor according to the old Campaign Setting book, but this does not seem to be mentioned in the newer Inner Sea Primer and the Inner Sea World Guide.
So, Taldor people, how popular is the Falcata out there?
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In my experience the Falcata is a popular choice for lots of players - most of whom are not of the Taldor faction. Between the Half-Elf ability to take an exotic weapon feat at creation, the human's bonus feat, and the heirloom weapon trait, you'd be surprised how many falcata wielding fighters, rogues, bards, clerics, and even wizards I've seen.
It's an immensely popular weapon.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That's because it shouldn't exist.19-20/x3 is the mathmatical equivalent to 20/x5. Ewp is a small price to pay for a game unbalancing weapon.
That said. My taldoran pally rocks it.
Reginald, a character could take a pick without any exotic proficiency, and that weapon does 20/x4. Falcata is better than that, but for a feat, it should be.
The damage with a falcata, ignoring critical hits, is nothing to write home about. A weilder can't use it to perform trips or other maneuvers. It's a nice weapon, but its critical threat is really all it has going for it.
If you want to convince me otherwise, I'll be happy to listen.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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19-20/x3 is the same as a 20/x5. Not x4.
I agreed with that. But the 20/x4 doesn't require a feat.
And the x4 weapons just like their mathmatical counterpart, the 18-20/x2 have lower damage codes, mostly d6.
I agree with you here. The 1-handed pick does 1d6. While there are martial x4 weapons that do 1d8 and 2d4, those are 2-handed.
There are no x5s for a reason. Over time the amount of damage done by a 19-20/x3 is significantly higher than any other weapons.
I disagree. A greatsword averages 7 points of damage on a basic hit, and 10% of its hits are criticals, doing an additional 7 points damage. So it will deliver 7.7 points of damage, plus 1.1 X Str bonus. So, if my math is right, it will out-damage a falcata (4.5 points, plus 10% of the hits will do an additional 9 points damage, which boils down to 5.4 plus 1.2 x Str bonus).
For that matter, a longsword, warhammer or battleaxe are doing 4.95 points plus 1.1 Strength bonus, which are almost as good as a falcata. If a fighter were willing to invest in weapon focus and one other feat, and chose to learn weapon specialization (longsword) instead of exotic weapon proficiency (facata), she'd be doing 7.15 points plus 1.1 Strength bonus, which would be a better deal.
And, of course, if she wants to do serious damage, and she's willing to spend a feat, it makes even more sense for her to get Improved Critical so that her scimitar or military pick are doing 15-20/x2 or 19-20/x4, the equivalent of 20/x7.
Incidentally have you read Sean K Reynolds weighing in on Improved Critical and keen weapons?
I disagree. A greatsword averages 7 points of damage on a basic hit, and 10% of its hits are criticals, doing an additional 7 points damage. So it will deliver 7.7 points of damage, plus 1.1 X Str bonus. So, if my math is right, it will out-damage a falcata (4.5 points, plus 10% of the hits will do an additional 9 points damage, which boils down to 5.4 plus 1.2 x Str bonus).
It's probably more accurate to say 1.1 or 1.2 x "fixed bonuses", not "Str bonus". For greatsword vs. falcata, the base damage differs by 2.5 points, so the falcata pulls in the lead once the fixed bonuses (e.g. Str bonus, Power Attack bonus, enhancement bonus, etc.) are greater than 25 points, roughly speaking.
That said, I don't see it as that broken, just a good exotic. I have more issue with something like the meteor hammer, which is effectively better in almost every way than the spiked chain after the spiked chain was specifically made less ridiculous.
Not to mention that it's better in almost every way to the double flail and the double sword, too.
Personally, I dislike the falcata in the same sense that I'd dislike a 1st level spell that was identical to magic missile except doing 1d6+1 damage per missile -- even if it's not overpowered, what's the point of having two practically identical things where one is strictly better?
A greatsword averages...... it will out-damage a falcata.
Not by far and ONLY if your are NOT using the falcata two handed because if you are it will out dmg everything else. IMO a feat is not enoth to balance that weapon.
If you are using it two handed then you aren't using the buckler though.
As far as "balance" yes it is balanced.
Typically an exotic weapon does one of the following to a martial weapon:
1. Increases damage dice a step.
2. Decreases 'handiness' a step.
3. Increases critical multiplier a step.
4. Increases critical range a step.
5. Creates a double weapon.
6. Grants it two of the following: trip, disarm, sunder resistance/potential, makes it a monk weapon, grants it finesse.
As such the falcata does one of those things -- it grants the longsword a better critical multiplier... or it grants a battle axe a better critical range.
Yes it is an useful weapon for a feat. No that's not a bad thing.
A greatsword averages...... it will out-damage a falcata.
Not by far and ONLY if your are NOT using the falcata two handed because if you are it will out dmg everything else. IMO a feat is not enoth to balance that weapon.
If you are using it two handed then you aren't using the buckler though.
As far as "balance" yes it is balanced.
Typically an exotic weapon does one of the following to a martial weapon:
1. Increases damage dice a step.
2. Decreases 'handiness' a step.
3. Increases critical multiplier a step.
4. Increases critical range a step.
5. Creates a double weapon.
6. Grants it two of the following: trip, disarm, sunder resistance/potential, makes it a monk weapon, grants it finesse.As such the falcata does one of those things -- it grants the longsword a better critical multiplier... or it grants a battle axe a better critical range.
Yes it is an useful weapon for a feat. No that's not a bad thing.
Actually, due to the way crit multipliers interact with threat range, increasing the crit multiplier 1 point for a 19-20 weapon is double the effectiveness of a 1 point increase to a 20 weapon.
That is to say, increasing the longsowrd's multiplier by one is the same as increasing the multiplier of a battle axe by 2 and increasing the range of a batlle axe by one is the same as increasing the range of a longsword by two. At least as far as 19-20/x2 is "equal" to 20/x3.
So the Falcata's one point increase to crit is actually worth two points.
Either way it is still either a one step multiplier for a longsword or a one step range for a battle axe.
19~20/x2 --> 19~20/x3
or
20/x3 --> 19~20/x3
It amounts to the same thing for either weapon.
I still don't mind it in either direction for an exotic weapon -- in fact for my home games I allow just that: The players can take any martial weapon grab one thing from the above list and make it an exotic weapon.
It has not 'unbalance' any of my games to date.
Good to hear all the balance and mathematics answers (and balance is important), but I was really asking from a role-playing perspective. Falcata and buckler is an odd combination unless you choose to endorse the Taldan tradition, and I just wondered if someone had chosen the Rondelero option.
I play a Taldan Rogue with a level in Fighter and he fights with Falcata and buckler. I'd love him be be Rondelero because that would further his Taldan-ness. Overall I think the Taldor background is fairly interesting. I like the Empire in Decline feel to it and having a traditional style of sword-fighting adds flavour to the Golarion world.
I love the buckler/falcata combination a lot for a simple reason:
Versatility -- I can have a shield and hit well, or I can two hand the falcata for powerful hits. With a feat I have two weapons to hit with (shield bash) if I take levels in Rodelero (which I would). Basically I'm all sorts of open for lots of different choices. I don't have to put up anything to draw out a wand, alchemical item or grab a whole of something. In fact I can hold something and never give up my shield bonus (provided I don't actually use the item).
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To answer your question, Deluge, I haven't seen one falcata/buckler combo since the weapon was introduced to the campaign I'm running. I have, however, seen four dual-falcata-wielding rogues and fighters and not one of them was Taldan. The players of those characters chose the weapon for purely mechanical reasons and that kind of saddens me.
It's been too long since I saw a fighter who just uses a trusty longsword or a stout battle axe.
Velcro if it makes you feel any better my wife's last character was a buckler and falcata user -- and this was before the Rondelero archetype was available.
She had the following stats to start with: 14 str 14 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 10 cha (we used a 25 point buy for that campaign) was a human from taldor took the collegiate fighter option from the old campaign setting book and the mobile fighter archetype.
She was a hard hitter all the same. We had a mounted paladin and her full attacks were still keeping up with his damage, and her AC was great.
Course you could spend a feat to be prof with the Dueling sword or butterfly knife.
It's been too long since I saw a fighter who just uses a trusty longsword or a stout battle axe.
Thats cause you ain't been playing in our games. We have a guy who no matter what, is always armed with a longsword. It is pretty much the only weapon he will ever use unless we can convince him otherwise.
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what he wrote
It sounds like she actually put some story-based thought into making her character and that's swell. I'm bored with players telling me their fighter uses weapon X because it does Y+Z points of damage with a crit range of 2-20 and not because it makes sense. I don't want to have to kibosh certain exotic weapons, but it gets to the point I don't see any reason they're exotic.
To me, the perfect exotic weapons are the ones that aren't super effective; they're the ones that are just different enough to add some cosmetic appeal or weirdness to a character. The 3.0 book Sword and Fist has a weapon called a gyrspike. It's just a sword with a long flail hanging from the handle, but it's bizarre and looks like something that takes some intense training to use safely. That's what I'm talking about. It doesn't outclass anything else. You could just use a flail and longsword if you want the same effect, but the gyrspike marks your character as a strange person from a strange land with stranger fighting styles. A falcata just looks like a sword. It isn't a desirable weapon because it's strange, iconic or versatile. It's desirable because it mechanically outclasses so many other weapons. To me, that's boring. But maybe I'm boring for not basing all my gaming decisions on things like DPR.
what he wrote
That's nifty and I would love to play in your game, but I don't live in a magical dream world of chocolate unicorn fountains and candy-coated caramel owlbears. I sure wish I did though.
we often have characters using 'standard' weapons simply because getting too focused in one weapon costs too many feats for them.
Our rogue/fighter/bard/arcane archer uses a morning star if not his rapier -- recently because the rapier was stolen when he dropped it to shoot his bow, and before because the morning star was magical and bludgeoning.
Most our 'martial' types end up with a long sword or axe simply because they have other things to spend their feats on.
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It's been too long since I saw a fighter who just uses a trusty longsword or a stout battle axe.
Just depends on who you game with. For the last decade or so, it's been Simple Weapon users use Morningstar + Shield or Longspear (plus crossbows) and Martial Weapon users use Longsword + Shield or Greatsword (and composite longbows).
Nobody has proven willing to blow a feat on an Exotic Weapon proficiency*, since even the two or three that are *worth* blowing a feat on (3.X spiked chain, for instance), you'll *never* find as treasure, meaning that your spiked-chain-fighter will always have a crappier weapon than the longsword user (who didn't have to spend twice the money, since longswords are not uncommon as treasure).
50% sellback tariffs pretty much guarantee that anyone who isn't specifically fighting the Order of Spiked Chain Fighters for their campaign bad-guy is going to be forever behind the WBL curve.
*One exception. A monk player took Shuriken, under the assumption that he could throw multiple shuriken as part of a standard action. That's no longer the case, apparently, making them worthless, since it's easier to take Quick-Draw, which applies to *all* of your weapons, than EWP: half-strength less-useful daggers.
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The only character I've written up using the Taldan style was the one in this profile, and, frankly, without the custom feat, I don't think the style is all that hot.
The notion was way, way more useful in 3.X using the old Combat Expertise rules, as I had a Freeport fighter/cultist hold off the entire group fairly viciously by whirlwind attack / wounding weapon to cause continuing damage, and then 'turtling' by going full defense / combat expertise +5, for an AC that required anyone to roll a 20 to hit him (combined with good saving throws vs. spells).
Pathfinder Combat Expertise kinda took that option away. (And the wounding weapon property, IIRC, changed from 3.o to 3.5/PF, making it useless for this tactic, as well.)
I wanted a fighter version of 'rope a dope,' where you wait the enemy out, instead of going for the biggest damage possible on round 1, since trading power attacks round after round felt like 'drunken idiot boxing' to me. (Two guys standing in one spot, trading punches to the face until one is down, with no dodging or tactics allowed.)
With the Rondelero you can shield bash however, and the weapon training applies specifically to both the falcata and the buckler -- which is very useful.
With the specialty feat and shield focus, greater shield focus and dodge you can have a rather nice AC off of the buckler (with the shield feats it's +4 shield AC before enhancement bonuses).
Now I'm not saying it's OMG uber powerful !!!!111!!!1 but it certainly isn't crap.
If you want a character that can change up what he is doing each round then it is a nice set up.
Two hand when needed, single weapon and shield when 'turtling' or sword and board when more swings are better (say having a bard in the party with good hope and inspire courage both going).
That's nifty and I would love to play in your game, but I don't live in a magical dream world of chocolate unicorn fountains and candy-coated caramel owlbears. I sure wish I did though.
Well you are in luck.
The owlbears are certainly not candy coated... Nearly died to one myself.. it knocked out most of the party, except for mr. longsword, his wife, and our summoner.
We've yet to see a unicorn, but we saw a giant centipede. Killed 1/3 the party (including me) and Mr. long sword and his wife killed it.
His wife would have been using a longsword, If i hadn't persuaded him to use a rapier and his wife to use an elven curvedblade. (He has an obsession with elves. Currenty is on a quest to find a elfcat or dog.)