I was discussing some monster design with my DM the other day, relating to some foes the party has fought in the last month, and I asserted that most people would probably CR the last couple foes higher than he did. We aren't arguing by any means (don't feel like you are jumping in the middle of the DM/Player dispute) but we're curious as to what others think.
Anyway, where would you place the CR of these two monsters?
Advanced elite devourer
NE Large Undead
Init +11; Senses Darkvision, Perception +23
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
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AC 40 (+4 armor, +7 Dex, +1 dodge, +15 natural, +4 shield*, -1 size) touch 17, flat-footed 32, combat 37
hp 203 (14d8 + 140); DR 10/good
Immune undead
Defense spell deflection; SR 25
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +15
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Speed 30 ft.; fly 20 ft. (perfect)
Melee 2 claws +22 (1d4 + 12 and energy drain)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +10; Combat +23
Special Actions devour soul, energy drain (1 level, DC 26)
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Spell-like Abilities (Caster level 20th, Concentration +33) 50 points
9th – energy drain
8th – mass inflict critical wounds (DC 27)
7th – control undead (DC 26)
6th – true seeing
4th – animate dead, bestow curse (DC 23), confusion (DC 23), enervation, inflict critical wounds (DC 23) lesser planar ally
3rd – suggestion (DC 22), vampiric touch
2nd – death knell (DC 21), ghoul touch (DC 21), spectral hand
1st – mage armor, ray of enfeeblement (DC 20), shield
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Abilities Str 34, Dex 24, Con -, Int 23, Wis 22, Cha 29
SQ contingency
Feats Ability Focus (devour soul), Combat Casting, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-like Ability, Toughness, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Fly +13, Intimidate +26, Knowledge (arcana) +23, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +23, Knowledge (history) +23, Knowledge (planes) +23, Perception +23, Sense Motive +23, Spellcraft +23
Possessions Robe of greater disguise, expedition pavilion; Chest – cloak of comfort (x2), jungle cloak of comfort, jungle boots (x3), Pathfinder pouch, armillary amulet, dream journal of the pallid seer, Preklikin's Book of Cults, Scarab of Kheppri, grave candles (x4), salt lamp (x2), wayfinder (mossy disk – History inside)
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Devour Soul (Su) By making a touch attack as a standard action, Rakis-Ka can deal 12d6+20 points of damage as if using a slay living spell. A DC 28 Fortitude save reduces this damage to 3d6+20. The soul of a creature slain by this attack becomes trapped within the devourer's chest. The creature cannot be brought back to life until the devourer's destruction (or a spell deflection—see below) releases its soul. A devourer can hold only one soul at a time. The trapped essence provides a devourer with 5 essence points for each Hit Die possessed by the soul. A devourer must expend essence points when it uses a spell-like ability equal to the spell's level (for sake of ease, spell levels for its spell-like abilities are included in its stats in superscript). At the start of an encounter, a devourer generally has 11 essence points available. The trapped essence gains one permanent negative level for every 5 points of essence drained—these negative levels remain if the creature is brought back to life (but they do not stack with any negative levels imparted by being brought back to life). A soul that is completely consumed may only be restored to life by a miracle or wish. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Spell Deflection (Su) If any of the following spells are cast at the devourer and overcome its spell resistance, they instead affect a devoured soul: banishment, chaos hammer, confusion, crushing despair, detect thoughts, dispel evil, dominate person, fear, geas/quest, holy word, hypnotism, imprisonment, magic jar, maze, suggestion, trap the soul, or any form of charm or compulsion. While none of these effects harms the soul, the caster makes a DC 28 caster level check when a spell is deflected—success indicates that the trapped soul is released from its prison and the creature whose body it belonged to can now be restored to life as normal.
Contingency When Rakis-Ka is reduced to 100 hp, a harm spell activates on his person, and his DR changes to 15/good and adamantine as he takes his true form.
Advanced giant brain collector sorcerer 4
CE Huge Aberration (Incorporeal)
Init +11; Senses Blindsight 50 ft., Perception +28
Languages Neh-thalggu; telepathy 100 ft.
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AC 35, touch 26, flat footed 35, combat 58
(+6 deflection, +7 Dex, +5 insight, +9 natural, -2 size)
hp 266 (16d8 + 4d6 + 180); DR 10/greater magic
Immune disease, poison; SR 26
Defense fortification 50%, uncanny dodge
Fort +15, Ref +13, Will +21
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Speed 40 ft., fly 40 ft. (perfect)
Melee Bite +26 (3d6 + 14 and poison) and
4 tentacles +17 touch (1d6 plus 1 Str, Dex and Con drain)
Ranged Acidic ray +19 (1d6 + 6 acid)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. tentacles)
Base Atk +14; Combat +30
Special Actions extract, multistrike
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Psionics (Manifester level 10th, PP 113, Concentration +20)
5th – adapt body
4th – mindwipe (DC 20) 3 neg levels
3rd – energy burst (DC 21) 10d6+10 cold
2nd – feat leech (DC 21) 5 feats
1st - know direction and location, mind thrust (DC 21) 10d10 dmg
Sorcerer Spells Known (Caster level 12th, Concentration +22)
6th (5/day) - flesh to stone (DC 22), geas (DC 22)
5th (7/day) – dominate person (DC 21), feeblemind (DC 21), nightmare (DC 21), telekinesis (DC 21)
4th (7/day) – animate dead, black tentacles, fear (DC 20), greater invisibility, mass reduce person (DC 20)
3rd (7/day) – gentle repose, slow (DC 19), tongues, vampiric touch
2nd (8/day) – arcane lock, detect thoughts (DC 18), hypnotic pattern (DC 18), see invisibility, spider climb, summon swarm
1st (8/day) – alarm, chill touch (DC 18), enlarge person, obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement (DC 18), ventriloquism
0 (At will) – acid splash, bleed, dancing lights, daze, detect poison, ghost sound, mage hand, message, prestidigitation
Spell-like Abilities (Caster level 18th, Concentration +28)
At will – detect magic, detect psionics, dispel magic, greater teleport
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Abilities Str 39, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 22
Feats Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Empower Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Innate Magic, Iron Will, Multiattack, Quicken Spell, Quicken Spell-like Ability
Skills Athletics +38, Fly +11, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (psionics) +29, Perception +28, Psicraft +29, Stealth +22
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Extract Brain (Su): Will DC 26, full round action every 1d4 rounds. A creature must be within reach of the brain collector's tentacles for this to function. Success deals 1d6 damage and stunned for 1 round. Failure deals 10 Constitution damage and 10 Intelligence damage. A creature slain by this attack has their brain drawn into the neh-thalggu's brain sacs.
A creature who is slain by this attack cannot be raised or resurrected through any means until his brain is recovered from the neh-thalggu.
A neh-thalggu gains a +1 circumstance bonus on Knowledge checks for each rank in the skill a creature had. It can make such Knowledge checks untrained.
Neh-thalggu can augment their powers known list by extracting the brains of psionic and spell-casting creatures. Neh-thalggu can access any power known, spell prepared or spell known from a brain they hold in their sacs. The creature can then manifest them (even spells) with its power points. It can make use of any metamagic or psionics possessed by its brains as well. It is capable of using its power points to fuel metamagic without increasing the spell's level. It pays a number of points equal to what manifesting a power of the metamagic's increase would cost.
Multistrike (Ex) A neh-thalggu can strike every opponent within reach with its tentacles.
Poison (Ex): Injury, Fort DC 29, 1d2 Str and staggered, (6); cure 2 consecutive saves
Incorporeal: A neh-thalggu is treated as incorporeal in all ways, but keeps its Strength score and natural armor (which functions against both incorporeal and touch attacks). Although a physical and solid creature, it remains slightly in sync with multiple dimensions, never fully existing in a single one at a given moment.
Ability Drain Fort DC 26 reduces to damage
CR 14 and 15 respectively.
Also worth noting here that the DM runs Quicken SLA on monsters as letting them quicken whichever SLA they want at a given moment, rather than having to choose a specific one. In the case of the Brain collector it was throwing out dispels every round, in the case of the devourer he threw out a quickened 8th level spell.
Also worth noting here that the DM runs Quicken SLA on monsters as letting them quicken whichever SLA they want at a given moment, rather than having to choose a specific one. In the case of the Brain collector it was throwing out dispels every round, in the case of the devourer he threw out a quickened 8th level spell.
Quickened SLA is nasty enough as it is ... and qualifying to throw an 8th level SLA would require a caster level of about 25th-26th, so that's a major no-no for that feat.
Does the GM let the player characters take Quicken SLA ? ^_^
Also worth noting here that the DM runs Quicken SLA on monsters as letting them quicken whichever SLA they want at a given moment, rather than having to choose a specific one. In the case of the Brain collector it was throwing out dispels every round, in the case of the devourer he threw out a quickened 8th level spell.Quickened SLA is nasty enough as it is ... and qualifying to throw an 8th level SLA would require a caster level of about 25th-26th, so that's a major no-no for that feat.
Does the GM let the player characters take Quicken SLA ? ^_^
No, the players are not allowed to taken Quicken SLA. Also using only Pathfinder Core, APG, and a couple of DM feats.
And in fairness, the issue of it throwing out an 8th level spell was pointed out after the combat, and the DM decided that in the future he would abide by the caster level limitation (mostly). Major issue with it here was it was used to heal a bunch of undead creatures (including a high level vampire) while hurting all the PCs. Literally could not have been a better use of the spell.
Anyway, does the info on quicken change your interpretation of their CR at all?
Anyway, does the info on quicken change your interpretation of their CR at all?
It's hard to attach a CR to nonstandard rule effects, particularly when there's a big disbalance between offense and defense. It becomes too PC-specific to give it an objective balancing (ie, are the PCs equipped to handle the gonzo thing, or does the gonzo thing specifically crush them?)
But if I had to peg a CR, then I'd say "+1" (making it 16 and 15 respectively). It's because you're basically doubling the number of enemies from an offensive perspective, but not from a defensive.
Again, with the above caveats.
Anyway, does the info on quicken change your interpretation of their CR at all?It's hard to attach a CR to nonstandard rule effects, particularly when there's a big disbalance between offense and defense. It becomes too PC-specific to give it an objective balancing (ie, are the PCs equipped to handle the gonzo thing, or does the gonzo thing specifically crush them?)
But if I had to peg a CR, then I'd say "+1" (making it 16 and 15 respectively). It's because you're basically doubling the number of enemies from an offensive perspective, but not from a defensive.
Again, with the above caveats.
+1. I noticed the offense and defense of the monster were not in the same CR range. I would adjust them up or down to be more in line.
Does the GM let the player characters take Quicken SLA ? ^_^
Pete's wrong on this. The DM would absolutely allow PCs to take Quicken SLA, but PCs don't really have a reason to take it....most lack SLAs entirely, those that don't lack effective ones.
As far as using it on an 8th level spell with 20th caster level, that was DM bad in not reading the rules, not DM policy.
The only change to Quicken SLA I made was that it applies to all qualifying spell-likes, 3/day total. So if you have fireball at will and darkness at will, you could use quickened darkness 3/day or quickened fireball 2/day and darkness 1/day, etc. It does add versatility, but I do not feel it adds CR.
Turin, I like your CR evaluation. :)
Those interested in the combat might be interested in knowing that the AC 40 represents full buffs, which did not occur during the encounter. Mage armor was up, shield was not.
Those interested in the player character party that encountered these monsters can see here for stats.
From this thread, you can view the allied NPCs who aided the PCs during the combats. 4 of the snake bodyguards, Boogabar and Malfus Fairwind.
Rakis might deserve a 15 CR. Although I think he would have gone down quicker and less painfully without his minions, between his contingencied extra 150 hp and DR 15, and his normal defenses (which were pretty solid even without shield) he was a resilient opponent. His offense was pretty potent as well. Focus firing his energy drain and using his quickened actions on enervations instead of mass inflict criticals would have resulted in at least one death on our side. Twelve energy drained levels and a pair of enervations would not be good for our 13th level souls (nor CR-even 15th level ones - 6d4 negative levels averaging to 15).
However in general we would be in pretty good shape after both these fights (and would have been in better shape during them) if our cleric hadn't dropped out. Which is an issue, certainly, since permanent ability drain and permanent negative levels suck, but an issue with our party rather than the CR.
I wouldn't put the collector above 15 by itself. Its defenses were superb but its offense did not stack up to the defense. Could have put the casters in some danger with its spells, but not the fighters - I believe everybody except Heinrick suffered as much or more from the enviroment of the fight and from the Tear than from the collector itself. Its brain extracting ability was the only really fearsome offense it had.
OTOH no lower than 15 either. 15 sounds right.
No comment on quickened higher level spells, at least you didn't use it to double dip energy drain.
Does the GM let the player characters take Quicken SLA ? ^_^Pete's wrong on this. The DM would absolutely allow PCs to take Quicken SLA, but PCs don't really have a reason to take it....most lack SLAs entirely, those that don't lack effective ones.
As far as using it on an 8th level spell with 20th caster level, that was DM bad in not reading the rules, not DM policy.
The only change to Quicken SLA I made was that it applies to all qualifying spell-likes, 3/day total. So if you have fireball at will and darkness at will, you could use quickened darkness 3/day or quickened fireball 2/day and darkness 1/day, etc. It does add versatility, but I do not feel it adds CR.
Turin, I like your CR evaluation. :)
Those interested in the combat might be interested in knowing that the AC 40 represents full buffs, which did not occur during the encounter. Mage armor was up, shield was not.
Those interested in the player character party that encountered these monsters can see here for stats.
From this thread, you can view the allied NPCs who aided the PCs during the combats. 4 of the snake bodyguards, Boogabar and Malfus Fairwind.
:) Since you are Pathfinderizing the Savage Tide from the look of things, I'm fairly familiar with the exciting parts of that AP.
Just by the by, be very VERY glad that you do not have cooperative domain pairs of clerics in your group ... there are some VERY sweet 1st level clerical domain abilities in Pathfinder that are just gawdsawful to have to face as the GM ...
I can see where you're getting at with the house-rule on Quicken SLA. My suggestion is to stick to the Bestiary's chart on how high a spell level the feat can affect based on the critter's caster level.
Hope that your group is enjoying the Savage Tide!
I can see where you're getting at with the house-rule on Quicken SLA. My suggestion is to stick to the Bestiary's chart on how high a spell level the feat can affect based on the critter's caster level.
As indicated, I do plan on doing this very thing. I was actually unaware of the limit prior to the end of the combat with Rakis-Ka.
Another point that would be worth noting....due to the short combat lifespan of both of these monsters, the 'change' I made to Q SLA never came into play. The brain collector combat would have been identical with my Q SLA or Q SLA (dispel magic) Rakis-Ka would have been the same with Q SLA (mass inflict critical wounds) as he was with my 'version' of the feat.
Hope that your group is enjoying the Savage Tide!
Me too... Pretty sure Lightless Depths isn't going to end up anyone's favorite chapter though.
Pretty sure Lightless Depths isn't going to end up anyone's favorite chapter though.
Don't despair! There is still room to end the chapter atop a vast mound of kopru heads, separated from their bodies by Thanaclan's Justice ;)