CMD and shaken


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Does the shaken condition somehow apply to CMD?
The RAW says CMD is from BAB, so not from -2 for attack rolls.
But what about the -2 on abilitz checks, since there are STR and DEX involved?


Hayato Ken wrote:

Does the shaken condition somehow apply to CMD?

The RAW says CMD is from BAB, so not from -2 for attack rolls.
But what about the -2 on abilitz checks, since there are STR and DEX involved?

CMD is not check and thus should be unaffected by shaken condition.


no.
you might notice that everything it does list is a ROLL (a check).
the defender against a maneuver no longer rolls anything in PRPG, they just have a non-variable CMD number akin to AC.
attack bonuses and penalties may apply to CMB checks, but they don´t apply to CMD.
AC bonuses* and penalties apply to CMD but not to CMB rolls.

* Except Armor, Shield, Natural Armor, and Untyped Bonuses which don´t apply.
Untyped Bonuses not being listed are probably Errata (and should apply to CMD), and ALL AC Penalties apply to CMD,
again probably an Errata since Armor, Shield, Natural Armor Penalties really SHOULDN´T affect CMD.
(Touch AC, strangely defined under the sub-head ´Touch Attacks´ in the AC section of the Combat Chapter,
also doesn´t exclude those penalties, even though it excludes them as BONUSES.)

CMD is just another AC variant like Touch AC is, it just happens to also use BAB and STR.
For some reason Paizo felt it was better to conceal this fact, whether in their presentation of CMD (not directly deriving from Touch AC) or in their character sheets which don´t list CMD with other AC scores even though most situational AC mods should apply equally to CMD as to Touch AC, etc.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

A character who is shaken takes a penalty on CMB rolls (since they are attack rolls), but not CMD (since it's more akin to a DC that uses BAB as a base).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So, how can the CMD be reduced then?
Only by reducing ability scores?


Quandary wrote:

AC bonuses* and penalties apply to CMD but not to CMB rolls.

* Except Armor, Shield, Natural Armor, and Untyped Bonuses which don´t apply.
Untyped Bonuses not being listed are probably Errata (and should apply to CMD), and ALL AC Penalties apply to CMD,
again probably an Errata since Armor, Shield, Natural Armor Penalties really SHOULDN´T affect CMD.

+Any attack bonuses (like Flanking) opponents get vs you have the same effect as penalties to AC/CMD.

Shadow Lodge

Fatigued or Exhausted would also do it, as they directly penalize ability scores. Certain poisons, too. Also anything that reduces defense. Charging or using Lunge would impact CMD.

Liberty's Edge

There's also Feint - if the target is flat-footed, they lose thier dex to CMD, just like AC.

I've run the numbers, and a Dex-based, low strength Rogue with Combat Maneuver feats is extremely effective. Monks are better at grapple, but the rogue excels at just about everything else.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BobChuck wrote:

There's also Feint - if the target is flat-footed, they lose thier dex to CMD, just like AC.

I've run the numbers, and a Dex-based, low strength Rogue with Combat Maneuver feats is extremely effective. Monks are better at grapple, but the rogue excels at just about everything else.

Thats what i want to go into^^ I´m thinking about playing a halfling ninja with a whip. Taking the line:

Combat expertise - improved trip - fury´s fall - fury´s snare
weapon finesse - serpent lash

Seems like i have to add improved feint perhaps. I´m thinking about TWF too. Nice AoO if you drag them to you with a sword of subtlety.
Anyway, how do you get oponents fatuiged or exhausted as a non-spellcaster?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Anyway, what is the medium of oponents CMD´s at level 10?
OR what can high CMD´s and medium CMD´s around that level or the typical CR you face be?


Check the Bestiary for appropriate CR critters for a party of Level 10 PCs.
The actual opponents characters face are certainly more relevant that generic abstract numbers.
Opponents will have a wide range of CMDs, just as CMDs vary from Halfling Wizard to Half-Orc Barbarian/Dragon Disciple.
On the whole, Maneuvers get harder to accomplish as you rise in levels and opponents rise in CR.
But all the same tricks to find attack bonuses help Maneuvers just like regular attacks.

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