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A disarming rogue would love this!
Dual weild arrow and Nunchaku.
First attack disarm then stab stab stab all with sneak attack since they are flat footed.
1. Exactly how did I become denied my DEX? Did you feint in combat with a high Bluff, and I failed my Sense Motive?
2. Your sneaky rogue's CMB is what again? (I'll bet it's pretty sucky unless he's a high-STR barbarian melee rogue who'd rather be Power Attacking anyway.) Meanwhile, your typical melee tank's CMD is through the roof; and he'd love nothing more than for you to finish your turn in an easy 5ft step for him to beat you into bloody paste with a two-hander full-attack.
Disarm is a real bear to get off in Pathfinder as opposed to 3.5 (and that's a good thing, too; because it was broke in 3.5 -- it's like everyone had butterfingers and would drop all their junk in advance at the first sight of a bard with a whip).
This feat is a "munchkin trap" -- something that seems uber on the surface, but winds up getting you killed due to a combination of delaying other, more useful feats, and by prompting you into suboptimal situations because you now think you're prepared -- such as archer builds staying in melee. A smart archer/rogue/wizard type would tumble away, and run and hide (leaving the enemy floundering around blowing Perception checks to rediscover him on their turn), then sneak-attack from range.
Exactly how did I become denied my DEX? Did you feint in combat with a high Bluff, and I failed my Sense Motive?
Unarmed opponents are rendered flat-footed against a character possessing the feat Catch Off-Guard attacking them with an improvised weapon. It was part of the original post that started the thread.
A disarming rogue would love this!
Dual weild arrow and Nunchaku.
First attack disarm then stab stab stab all with sneak attack since they are flat footed.
1. Exactly how did I become denied my DEX? Did you feint in combat with a high Bluff, and I failed my Sense Motive?
2. Your sneaky rogue's CMB is what again? (I'll bet it's pretty sucky unless he's a high-STR barbarian melee rogue who'd rather be Power Attacking anyway.) Meanwhile, your typical melee tank's CMD is through the roof; and he'd love nothing more than for you to finish your turn in an easy 5ft step for him to beat you into bloody paste with a two-hander full-attack.
Disarm is a real bear to get off in Pathfinder as opposed to 3.5 (and that's a good thing, too; because it was broke in 3.5 -- it's like everyone had butterfingers and would drop all their junk in advance at the first sight of a bard with a whip).
This feat is a "munchkin trap" -- something that seems uber on the surface, but winds up getting you killed due to a combination of delaying other, more useful feats, and by prompting you into suboptimal situations because you now think you're prepared -- such as archer builds staying in melee. A smart archer/rogue/wizard type would tumble away, and run and hide (leaving the enemy floundering around blowing Perception checks to rediscover him on their turn), then sneak-attack from range.
Catch off gaurd feat. It could work better if you had a sorcerer or wizard cast grease on the melee fighter and then you moved in to attack with catch off guard. The other option is you could build a rouge that is designed to twf with arrows just because you want to. Disarm would work best with someone else doing it. OR a verdant bloodline sorcerer disarming from the distance. Note you can still flank with improvised weapons.
Disarming my armor-spikes -- that's a neat trick I want to see on film.
The "munchkin" trick of following up Catch Off-Guard with sneak-attack cheese is thwarted by a measly 50gp accoutrement.
And how many NPCs run around with spiked armor anyway? Sneak attacking with that arrow ONCE is a nice trick... after all who would expect it?
For those who continue to assert that you can draw and wield an arrow as a free action, please show me where in the rules it says you can do this? I pointed out several comments ago that the "free action" part of using ammunition is written as part of using a bow. There is nothing I've seen that indicates you can draw and wield ammunition as a weapon as a free action, and in fact I believe the rules clearly state that doing so would follow the same rules as using a wand or other item as a weapon.
I have looked for it and it seems to think this is not something you are intended to do.
One weird argument for it is how do you ready an attack with a bow I do not think you stand their with the arrow not drawn and then fire it I have always imagined it of you pull the bow string back and ready to release the shot shot when they get into something that triggers it.
Kinder, that is because all special material items must be of masterwork quality. The benefit to adamantine is that you could sunder with the arrows better. Or if someone tried to sunder the arrow, it would have more hitpoints. It still would break when used for an attack.
What was your point?
It breaks so its 60gp for attacks. Anyway weapon blanch is cheaper to get the specail materials with catch off gaurd. 10gp per arrow and it ignores hardness and dr adamantine and you get 10 of them. Anyway you could just buy a masterwork arrow for 7 gold peices as well. You could always greater magic weapon the arrows and then attack with them because you enchant 50. Cold iron arrows are one silver piece used this way so do not buy cold iron blanch. It is cheaper this way but requires prep time.
Kinder, that is because all special material items must be of masterwork quality. The benefit to adamantine is that you could sunder with the arrows better. Or if someone tried to sunder the arrow, it would have more hitpoints. It still would break when used for an attack.
What was your point?
Actually cold iron does not so cold iron arrows are incredibly cheap only double the normal cost of the item.
The shaft would probably snap as that is made of wood. It also does by RAW. It says that in the ammunition chapter and in additon it is masterwork and masterwork ammunition breaks when used.
Now who said the shaft is made of wood?
What does that chapter say about an adamatine arrow?
Yes an admantine arrow is masterwork but not all masterwork arrows are adamantine....
The rules are very clear on using arrows or other ammunition. They ALWAYS break or are otherwise "rendered unusable" when they hit and have a 50% chance of breaking or becoming rendered unusable on a miss. There are some arrows that are durable and do not break, but it clearly states that all magical properties are used up on a hit, and 50% chance of being used up on a miss.
There is no way under the rules to get around this ammunition limitation. And I am quite certain the game designers put these rules in to stop this sort of power gaming abuse.
For those who continue to assert that you can draw and wield an arrow as a free action, please show me where in the rules it says you can do this?
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Yes you can argue since you were not going to use it with a ranged weapon it is not possible to draw the arrow with empty hands that fast.
If my hands are empty I can draw an arrow from a quiver just as quickly if not faster then when I am holding my 5' tall long bow in the other hand.
Here is am example how you can draw an arrow with RAW and not have a bow in your hand when you are finished drawing. A creature next to you readies an action to "when you go to pull and arrow out to disarm your bow". You move for your arrow the creature grabs your bow adn you finish pulling out the arrow as a free action.
Therefore you can draw the arrow as a free action.
For those who continue to assert that you can draw and wield an arrow as a free action, please show me where in the rules it says you can do this?Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.Yes you can argue since you were not going to use it with a ranged weapon it is not possible to draw the arrow with empty hands that fast.
If my hands are empty I can draw an arrow from a quiver just as quickly if not faster then when I am holding my 5' tall long bow in the other hand.
Here is am example how you can draw an arrow with RAW and not have a bow in your hand when you are finished drawing. A creature next to you readies an action to "when you go to pull and arrow out to disarm your bow". You move for your arrow the creature grabs your bow adn you finish pulling out the arrow as a free action.
Therefore you can draw the arrow as a free action.
I am not saying that the rules are intuitive or make sense. I'm saying what the rules are. According to the rules there is no indication that drawing an arrow to use as a weapon is a free action. According to the rules it is only a free action if you are going to use the arrow as part of the shooting of a bow. That's pretty clear to me.
I could make the reasonable argument that grabbing an arrow by the nock and placing it on the bowstring where the bowstring and arrow rest of the bow hold it in place is a reasonable free action, whereas grabbing an arrow and gripping it firmly for use like a dagger is more complicated and involved than loading a bow.
But I don't really care. The rules exist as they are so that bows can be used for multiple attacks to keep them balanced with melee weapons which can be swung multiple times in a fight. That's all. Everything else is just argument for the sake of argument.
As a DM I might or might not allow a character to draw and wield an arrow as a weapon as a free action. If I did so I would make it clear it was a house rule. I would still follow the rules for expending magical effects and arrow breakage or rendered unusable if I felt that was needed to keep someone from using an unreasonable exploit to gain an in-game advantage.
That's all.
an adamantine arrow costs 60 gold
It better work better than the durable arrow!
plus by the OP we are not firing the arrow it is for melee only ...
You're using an exception to the general rule as the basis of your argument. Sorry, that simply doesn't fly; exceptions trump the general rules, sure, but only in that specific instance.
Normal ammunition, and even most forms of magical ammunition, is subject to breakage on use as described in the general rules, regardless of what it may be made of. Additionally, the argument that such ammunition is being used as part of melee attack in this case noes not matter. The rules for ammunition breakage do not differentiate between ranged or melee attacks.
A durable arrow is an exception to these rules. if you want an adamantine arrow that doesn't break on use, then buy some adamantine durable arrows.
[But I don't really care. The rules exist as they are so that bows can be used for multiple attacks to keep them balanced with melee weapons which can be swung multiple times in a fight. That's all. Everything else is just argument for the sake of argument.
Bingo. Just about very time a rule has logical inconsistencies it is because it is there primarily for game balance.
The rules for drawing ammo as a free action make sense only in the context my metallic simian friend mentions above. When you change that context to use the arrow as an improvised weapon, they cease to make sense at all, and should sintead be trated as any other drawn weapon.
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And how many NPCs run around with spiked armor anyway?
All of them, once word gets out.
(That's how I'd run a home-game; modules you could get away with it forever. Of course there's still the problem of your archer finishing his turn next to some Power Attack monster which may or may not have spell-like abilities, but that's another matter.)
How do masterwork durable arrows work? Do I get it for 8 gold pieces basicaly a masterwork dagger if I have catch off guard. masterwork is not magical. The not breaking when used is an exception. Who says you are an archer character not just someone that is insane and stabs people with durable arrows.