I have a 3rd level Sorcerer with the Arcane bloodline. Even though I know what they can do, I’ve never really used Metamagic feats as I never liked the drawbacks they impose (full round casting, increased levels). The main reason I took the Arcane Sorcerer was some of the other abilities it has and I also like the bonus spell selection.
However, as the abilities of the Arcane bloodline is geared towards using metamagic feats, I figured I would give them a shot and ask others what your opinions are which one(s) I should take.
I am thinking of Still Spell, as it can be taken as a bonus feat from my bloodline. I am actually a bit surprised the bloodline only has one metamagic feat as an bonus feat option, considering it is aimed at metamagic feats.
What are others suggestions? Suggestions are also appreciated in maybe some feat(s)/spell(s) combos.
Thanks.
A few details on your playstyle/spell selection would be useful.
Extend is usually a save bet. Quicken is also very useful but that has to wait until higher levels. Bouncing and persistent are great for save-or-sucks. Dazing and selective are good for area damage spells. Reach can be useful to deliver touch attacks, especially if you have decent Dex to hit with rays.
Other than that, it's hard to recommend anything without more details.
My spell selection so far of course has been limited in being a Sorcerer. I only have 1st level spells. Magic Missle, Mage Armor, Color Spray and my bonus bloodline spell of Identify.
My play style in the past with Sorcerer’s has been pretty simple in I have tried to pick more damaging spells in general and be a ‘nuker’. Although I am going down a different route this time and also plan on being a crafter (for magic items) as well. So trying to balance my job as a Sorcerer in combat and also crafting magic items. I just picked up Craft Wonderous Item as we hit 3rd level in our last session.
The crafting also suits the type of campaign we are in as buying anything in general is going to be tough due to we are monsters (Hobgoblins). Besides things we find in treasure hoards, we are going to have to craft most of our items. At least for awhile yet until we might be able to build up some good relations with neighboring cities, if we are able to do so. We’ve already made ‘friends’ with a 10th level paladin by helping him and his party out earlier on with some much needed healing. Now he tolerates us. :)
Thanks for everyones suggestions so far.
Jeremiziah, any recommendation on the ‘best spells in the game’ Bouncing and Persistent will apply to?
Metamagic feats are like a few other things in the game (UMD skill)- worth very little at lower levels, essential at higher levels.
If you don't have much experience playing from 8-15th level, it may be hard to see how they work.
1) More spells known. How many times have you wanted to have 'that' spell? How difficult is it to choose spells when you level? Metamagic helps with that.
Ex) At 4th level, if you can cast a reach shocking grasp as a 2nd level spell (ranged touch/4d6 damage), you don't need scorching ray (ranged touch/4d6 damage). This allows you to take, say, levitate.
This is a huge increase in versatility, levitate solves problems that other spells do not, and levitate + magic is tough for opponents without ranged weapons (e.g. bears)
2) More control over resources Now, you don't have to worry about much in terms of resources, all of your good spells come from your 1st level spell slots. That won't always be true.
Ex) I want to blast that giant crab, but I need to keep my last 1st level spell for true strike, in case I get grabbed. Cast a still magic missile. Not any more damage, but uses a 2nd level slot, of which you have a few left.
This is an especially good trick if you are a sorceror with spells that could be cast on the party. You may go for weeks without needing resist energy, but all of a sudden, the entire party wants it before entering the cave of fire.
I have played 8th-15th level before with a Sorcerer, just not using Metamagic feats.
You bring up several good points, rkraus. Using Metamagic feats does give flexibility, but as you said at first it will be limiting. Not only limiting in the feats I can take (as I don’t have many spell levels to add), but that in the beginning I can only do away with the added casting time once a day. It really is frustrating in playing a Sorcerer and casting spells that takes a full round. It is one of the things that really turned me off using metamagic feats in 3.5.
Now to clarify, when I would use a metamagic feat, is it cast as a full round or a full round action? Meaning, does it cause me to cast it as the Sleep spell, or may I take a 5’ step and cast the spell and have it resolve the same round? I believe it’s the second option, but I wanted to make sure.
Thanks for the info rkraus, it is very useful and will keep it in mind.
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Thanks for everyones suggestions so far.
Jeremiziah, any recommendation on the ‘best spells in the game’ Bouncing and Persistent will apply to?
For instance (and as an example that you'll soon be able to make use of), Bouncing is great with Hideous Laughter or Daze Monster, or even Cause Fear. Pretty much any "Save or Suck"-style spell that targets a single creature is really good with Bouncing.
The same logic is really true with Persistent, although the thinking there is a little different. Think this way:
Bouncing = I just want the spell to land somewhere and effect something. Once thing is pretty much as good as another.
Persistent = I really need the spell to effect the creature I cast it on. (BBEG fights, for example)
Yes, metamagic rods are nice. However, the problem with crafting rods is I believe they are a spell trigger or completion item and you can only put in spells that you know. Which really, isn’t worth it for a Sorcerer.
Thanks for everyones suggestions so far.
Jeremiziah, any recommendation on the ‘best spells in the game’ Bouncing and Persistent will apply to?
For instance (and as an example that you'll soon be able to make use of), Bouncing is great with Hideous Laughter or Daze Monster, or even Cause Fear. Pretty much any "Save or Suck"-style spell that targets a single creature is really good with Bouncing.
The same logic is really true with Persistent, although the thinking there is a little different. Think this way:
Bouncing = I just want the spell to land somewhere and effect something. Once thing is pretty much as good as another.
Persistent = I really need the spell to effect the creature I cast it on. (BBEG fights, for example)
Ok, thanks for the suggestions. I can see my spell selections are a bit different than yours, I usually go with more damaging spells. But will have to look into your spell choices.
Persistent is nice, what I see that most useful for is an area effect spell. Not so much against the BBEG, unless his save is only around 50/50 (or maybe a hair better) where he still could have a decent chance of failing. Using it against a creature that has high saves (for the spell you are chucking) is not that worthwhile.
Now I do like Dazing a lot. That can really cripple a creature if he blows that Will save as he put out of combat for several rounds.
Metamagic rods are neither spell completion nor spell trigger; you might be thinking of wands?
No, I just thought rods were grouped with wands and staves where they are also a spell trigger or completion item. That’s great to hear that they are not. I will have to look again in the book to see my options on rods, if I want to take that creation feat.
No, I just thought rods were grouped with wands and staves where they are also a spell trigger or completion item. That’s great to hear that they are not. I will have to look again in the book to see my options on rods, if I want to take that creation feat.
Metamagic rods are neither spell completion nor spell trigger; you might be thinking of wands?
While most rods are not spell completion or trigger, they do require that a crafter possess the feat they want to put into the metamagic rod if they are crafting them. That said, if/when you get some decent relations setup with cities, definately buy some of them when you can afford them, they are far too useful to ignore for a caster.
Also, make sure to make good friends with that Paladin as well. Even if you cannot go into a good city, I bet they can and if he/she is a friend and knows you as decent folk I bet he/she would have no reservations buying stuff FOR you in good cities till you can get your reputations solidified in them yourselves.
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Yes, metamagic rods are nice. However, the problem with crafting rods is I believe they are a spell trigger or completion item and you can only put in spells that you know. Which really, isn’t worth it for a Sorcerer.
One thing, though they are not spell completion, I think you've misunderstood how spell completion works. You can use any spell on the sorcerer/wizard list, not your personal list of spells known. It's any spell you could know, not any you do know. A 1st level sorcerer with naught but a magic missile can use a wand of lightning bolt with no trouble at all, or haste, or fly, or a staff with Wish, should his GM be foolish enough to give him one.
Also, metamagicked spells take a full round action to cast. They go off in the same round you start casting them, not like sleep or summon [x].
While most rods are not spell completion or trigger, they do require that a crafter possess the feat they want to put into the metamagic rod if they are crafting them. That said, if/when you get some decent relations setup with cities, definately buy some of them when you can afford them, they are far too useful to ignore for a caster.
Are there rods that are spell completion or trigger items, as you indicated most are not? Yes, I am aware I would need the item creation feat for it, as I said, I will have to take a look at the rod list to see if there is enough worthwhile rods to take the feat. I was originally going to take Forge Ring, but I am thinking not now as even though there are some great rings I would love (Ring of regen, Wizardry I-IV, Elemental Command, Protection, etc.), I don’t know if there are enough where I would want to burn a feat for it. I am going to have to peruse the rods and make the same judgement for that feat, as well.
Also, make sure to make good friends with that Paladin as well. Even if you cannot go into a good city, I bet they can and if he/she is a friend and knows you as decent folk I bet he/she would have no reservations buying stuff FOR you in good cities till you can get your reputations solidified in them yourselves.
We haven’t seen much of the Paladin lately, unfortunately. Where we did save one of his party members by healing him (the Paladin was exhausted of spells/Lay Hands), it’s not like we can call on him to just buy things for us, especially at his level. It’s more he is just not going to kill us on sight right now. :)
He stays up at the next major city north of us and it is pretty much KOS for us. Also, that city is in the process of being sieged by a large orc invasion (led by a powerful orc warlord) and I am sure the Paladin is busy with that. Same orc warlord, btw, that wiped out not only our tribe, but others as well, way up north. That is how our campaign started, we were a break off from our original tribe and have made home further south with our own tribe/community. Now the orc warlord, or I should say his forces right now, is getting their paws further down south. So we have some payback to do to him eventually.
Oh, one final thing, our little ‘community’ is a bit unique as we are all neutral based characters. We are not ‘evil’, even though being monsters known to be evil.
Now to clarify, when I would use a metamagic feat, is it cast as a full round or a full round action? Meaning, does it cause me to cast it as the Sleep spell, or may I take a 5’ step and cast the spell and have it resolve the same round? I believe it’s the second option, but I wanted to make sure.
"If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell."
The metamagic versions of standard action spells take effect in the round you cast them.
Are there rods that are spell completion or trigger items, as you indicated most are not?
I am away from my books right now so I phrased that as a catch all. None come to mind IMMEDIATELY but with magic items it seems there is always some exeption. I would not worry about it too much though. The fact that I cannot think of one off the top of my head is a good indicator that it will probably be a non issue.
We haven’t seen much of the Paladin lately, unfortunately. Where we did save one of his party members by healing him (the Paladin was exhausted of spells/Lay Hands), it’s not like we can call on him to just buy things for us, especially at his level. It’s more he is just not going to kill us on sight right now. :)
He stays up at the next major city north of us and it is pretty much KOS for us. Also, that city is in the process of being sieged by a large orc invasion (led by a powerful orc warlord) and I am sure the Paladin is busy with that. Same orc warlord, btw, that wiped out not only our tribe, but others as well, way up north. That is how our campaign started, we were a...
Well if your going to be hitting the same foe as him try and see if you can get word back to him that your willing to help and even if he is busy, he may have allies that you could work for. As your ARE non evil 'monsters' you have infiltration opportunities that his human/standard race allies may never have.
One thing, though they are not spell completion, I think you've misunderstood how spell completion works. You can use any spell on the sorcerer/wizard list, not your personal list of spells known. It's any spell you could know, not any you do know. A 1st level sorcerer with naught but a magic missile can use a wand of lightning bolt with no trouble at all, or haste, or fly, or a staff with Wish, should his GM be foolish enough to give him one.
Yes, I am aware of that. But I was referring to crafting in particular. Where, as you said, a Sorcerer could cast any spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, for spell completion/trigger items I can only craft those items with spells that I ‘know’, not any on my list.
Also, metamagicked spells take a full round action to cast. They go off in the same round you start casting them, not like sleep or summon [x].
Ok, thank you on the clarification for that.
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This is not correct. Spontaneous spellcasters no longer take the penalty of a longer casting time for metamagic spells. That with one of the nicer changes from last edition to this. It simply doesn't make sense, logically, or balance wise to have it function this way any more.
Also, metamagicked spells take a full round action to cast. They go off in the same round you start casting them, not like sleep or summon [x].
The Rules are on my side here, sorry.
Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a fullround action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat. For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
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Yes, I am aware of that. But I was referring to crafting in particular. Where, as you said, a Sorcerer could cast any spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, for spell completion/trigger items I can only craft those items with spells that I ‘know’, not any on my list.
My mistake. Misunderstood the issue. You can, however, increase the DC for crafting if you do not meet the prerequisites listed for an item. The only prerequisite you absolutely cannot overcome this way is possession of the crafting feat.
You therefore don't need to have a spell if your spellcraft mojo is good enough... not saying you should take craft staff or wand, just that they're not as awful for a sorc as they might otherwise be.
This is not correct. Spontaneous spellcasters no longer take the penalty of a longer casting time for metamagic spells. That with one of the nicer changes from last edition to this. It simply doesn't make sense, logically, or balance wise to have it function this way any more.
Also, metamagicked spells take a full round action to cast. They go off in the same round you start casting them, not like sleep or summon [x].
Actually, they still do take the penalty. The only instance they do not take a penalty is with the Quicken metamagic feat or if they choose the Arcane bloodline, and there is an ability that allows you to not increase the casting time ‘x’ times a day, depending on your level. At 20th level, the arcane bloodline gets the ability Arcane Apothesis, which allows the Sorcerer to do as you said, and attach any metamagic feat to a spell, unlimited times, without increasing the casting time.
My mistake. Misunderstood the issue. You can, however, increase the DC for crafting if you do not meet the prerequisites listed for an item. The only prerequisite you absolutely cannot overcome this way is possession of the crafting feat.You therefore don't need to have a spell if your spellcraft mojo is good enough... not saying you should take craft staff or wand, just that they're not as awful for a sorc as they might otherwise be.
Again, we are talking about spell completion/trigger items, which you cannot take a +5 DC modifier if you don’t know the spell. You just can’t make that item.
Like for example, a Wand of Magic Missles. If I do not have Magic Missile, I could not take a +5 DC to make the wand, as it is a spell completion item. Same with scribing scrolls or making staves.
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Again, we are talking about spell completion/trigger items, which you cannot take a +5 DC modifier if you don’t know the spell. You just can’t make that item.
Like for example, a Wand of Magic Missles. If I do not have Magic Missile, I could not take a +5 DC to make the wand, as it is a spell completion item. Same with scribing scrolls or making staves.
Actually you could. RAW you can ignore anything but the creation feat as a prerequisite, including knowing the spell, unless I misread. I've been known to do that
Actually you could. RAW you can ignore anything but the creation feat as a prerequisite, including knowing the spell, unless I misread. I've been known to do that
Actually, you can’t. Believe me, I wish you could, then I would take Craft Wand. No, this has been well established through the threads discussing magic item creation. The rules are vague and need work, but this is one most agree on. Here is the passage:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Note emphasis mine. Since it follows the mandatory statement of needing the item creation feat and indicating “In addition”, I would read it as you absolutely need to know the spell to make spell completion/trigger items.
Edit: Heh, beat me to it. :)
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Ok, thanks for the suggestions. I can see my spell selections are a bit different than yours, I usually go with more damaging spells. But will have to look into your spell choices.
Yeah, damage spells really aren't the best way to go. If you're looking for "best", that is, as opposed to "most thematic for your character". Both, of course, are totally valid playstyles.
Persistent is nice, what I see that most useful for is an area effect spell. Not so much against the BBEG, unless his save is only around 50/50 (or maybe a hair better) where he still could have a decent chance of failing. Using it against a creature that has high saves (for the spell you are chucking) is not that worthwhile.
Well, you don't cast against their good saves, that's sort of caster 101. That's why you have all those Knowledge skills, to know all about monsters (among other things)!
Well if your going to be hitting the same foe as him try and see if you can get word back to him that your willing to help and even if he is busy, he may have allies that you could work for. As your ARE non evil 'monsters' you have infiltration opportunities that his human/standard race allies may never have.
Yes, we plan to eventually. But right now we are pretty weak (low level) and not to the point to coordinate anything worthwhile with the Paladin and the forces directly opposing the orc warlord.
We have hit him in our own way in other instances. Just wiped out an orc raiding/ambush party that was going to attack a group of humans being led back towards the larger city up north.
We also stole some relatively powerful items (for our level) out from under his nose that he was looking for. He doesn't know we took them, but we do know already he (or I should say his lieutenants) have put the word out to find the items and to bring in the 'thieves'.
To be honest, myself and the rest of the part is guessing that these items either lead to a more power item or can be combined somehow to make something more powerful. Just for the fact we don't see a reason why this powerful orc warlord would want them. Where they are nice for us, they are pitiful for him.
Ok, thanks for the suggestions. I can see my spell selections are a bit different than yours, I usually go with more damaging spells. But will have to look into your spell choices.Yeah, damage spells really aren't the best way to go. If you're looking for "best", that is, as opposed to "most thematic for your character". Both, of course, are totally valid playstyles.
Persistent is nice, what I see that most useful for is an area effect spell. Not so much against the BBEG, unless his save is only around 50/50 (or maybe a hair better) where he still could have a decent chance of failing. Using it against a creature that has high saves (for the spell you are chucking) is not that worthwhile.Well, you don't cast against their good saves, that's sort of caster 101. That's why you have all those Knowledge skills, to know all about monsters (among other things)!
Yes, I am aware of that.
But what I was getting at is if I am going to pick a spell that the BBEG has a low save against, I am not going to bother to attach Persistent, anyways.
And just to let you know, it is Wizards that have all those knowledges, not Sorcerers. :) I only have Knowledge Arcana and Knowledge of the Planes. And I only have KotP because I chose it because I could choose a bonus knowledge due to my bloodline.
Note that a persistant save or die usually has a MUCH higher chance of succeeding than a two levels higher save or die (though the effect is usually slightly milder; stunning for five turns instead of dying, for example, though that's more or less the same thing).
For example, having 20 charisma using a 3rd level persistent Hold Person (in a 5th level slot) against a save of +10 has a 58% chance of failure. Using a Dominate Person (5th level spell) against the same save has a 45% chance of success.
Of course, dominating an enemy is more powerful than Holding him. On the other hand, Dominate is mind-affecting.
Yes, we plan to eventually. But right now we are pretty weak (low level) and not to the point to coordinate anything worthwhile with the Paladin and the forces directly opposing the orc warlord.
Can you hire a Bard? Really what you guys need is good PR. Hire a few bards to tell the tales of your exploits. Course that does mean that you will draw those who want to shut you down but a good PR campaign could go a long way to getting you into the cities you want.
Plus as all rock stars know, it is good to be famous! :-)
If you're doing a lot of intrigue-based stuff, or working in a situation where you're likely to be grappled, then Still Spell (and Silent Spell) can be very helpful.
For example, having 20 charisma using a 3rd level persistent Hold Person (in a 5th level slot) against a save of +10 has a 58% chance of failure. Using a Dominate Person (5th level spell) against the same save has a 45% chance of success.
The bolded portions here have confused me.
For example, having 20 charisma using a 3rd level persistent Hold Person (in a 5th level slot) against a save of +10 has a 58% chance of failure. Using a Dominate Person (5th level spell) against the same save has a 45% chance of success.
The bolded portions here have confused me.
Oh, sorry. It should be 58% chance of success vs 45% chance of failure.
To save against HP it's +10 vs. DC 18 twice; 0.45*0.45=0.4225. 42% chance of failing saves, thus 58% chance of success.To save against DP it's +10 vs DC 20; 0.55. 45% chance of success with the spell.
For me my money is always on Quicken. Not being able to cast more than one spell per player turn is a keystone of the rule set, and this feat allows you to break it, and at a pretty fair cost as well. It is certainly for high level play, as it should be, but is IMHO the best of the bunch.
Just because i didn't see it mentioned, for sorcerers Still Spell is pretty nice situationally; they already have eschew materials, making grappled/entangled casts trivial (and very frustrating for the DM). Obviously if you have spells like dimension door to escape that can help (but perhaps you'd like silent spell to guarantee your exit, in that case?)
Also, I second Heighten. Most under-rated sorcerer feat ever: it allows most every spell you select to provide its effects at the power level desired--flavor wise, it can mean your bread-and-butter spell remains fearsome at all levels.
Spontaneous casters really do well with almost anything metamagic--because they don't have to prereserve the higher slot, they can customize spells as needed.
Yes, metamagic rods are nice. However, the problem with crafting rods is I believe they are a spell trigger or completion item and you can only put in spells that you know. Which really, isn’t worth it for a Sorcerer.Knowing spells is not the issue. You DO need to have the metamagic feats themselves though. Sorcerers will always be at an extreme disadvantage compared to wizards when it comes to crafting.
Can't you skip that by taking +5 DC? Still at a disadvantage though, since Spellcraft will be lower and you've got less IC feats.
~ 58% of affecting the target. Not sure where your 0.45 * 0.45 is coming from, but you somehow come up with the right answer. :D
AGAIN, I'm writing like a retard. It should be .65*.65, not .45. This really isn't my night.
I blame society.
Yes, we plan to eventually. But right now we are pretty weak (low level) and not to the point to coordinate anything worthwhile with the Paladin and the forces directly opposing the orc warlord.Can you hire a Bard? Really what you guys need is good PR. Hire a few bards to tell the tales of your exploits. Course that does mean that you will draw those who want to shut you down but a good PR campaign could go a long way to getting you into the cities you want.
Plus as all rock stars know, it is good to be famous! :-)
Well yes, we could hire a bard. One of the humans we helped in our recent session actually was a bard. But as you said, that will draw more attention. And more attention than we really want or need. We are also pretty self sufficient already, at least for what we need at the moment.
Our 'settlement' is actually in a good spot (hard to find) and we don't want to draw any unwanted attention. Where the PR campaign would help, it would be for a short benefit as the drawback of it would be much greater.
Besides the fact that we really don't have money to spend to buy anything worthwhile at the moment, so getting access to the larger city would be for naught.
We do have access to a small village where we can buy very basic supplies as we have helped them out several times and have earned their trust. At least to the extent of buying our supplies and leaving.
Question on using the metamagic rods, for each description on how they work, with most of them, it ends with: ...as though using the ______ feat.
Isn't part of using that feat (associated with the rod) adding on the caster levels?
So wouldn't you need to add those levels when using the rods, as well?
Yes, I meant spell levels. :)
And thank you!
No the rods specifically take care of the level bit. Sorcerers using those rods however are still doing full round casts since that's how they use metamagic feats. (with the exception of Quicken of course)
Yes, I understand that now, thanks.
Although I assume you would be able to use the abilities of the Arcane bloodline to alleviate that longer casting time when using the rods? At least to the extent the ability allows (only once a day at first).