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If your going for battle cleric. Oracle mystery battle is better.
If your going for battle cleric / oracle of battle. Drop the casting stat down and incress your Str. Keaping your str maxed out. Divine casters only get a few good attack spells most are 5 level plus. So going melee is a good option with most of your spells focusing on buffing and healing.
As a primary divine caster. You will live off comand, spitural weapon, and searing light. Untill you get to level 9. So geting to level 9 as a primary divine caster is a pain. Worth it but a pain.
My primary divine caster suggestion
Feets: Intensified Spell (Metamagic), Extend Spell (Metamagic), Empower Spell (Metamagic), Persistent Spell (Metamagic)
Cleric: Extra Channel, Selective Channeling,
My Melee suggestion
Oracle of Battle
Str 19
Dex 15
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 16
Revelation: Skill at Arms ( Bardiche: brace,reach or exotic Fauchard: reach,trip)
Feets: Exta Revelation is never a bad one for Oracle. Any thing a melee class uses is good.
The advantage of being in the fight. And being out of the range of AoO most of the time. With out moving from behind the melee in front of you. Just make sure you carry a back up weapon if some one gets to close.
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oh, and for feats I chose combat casting and eschew materials.
The Battle Oracle is a good choice, but a combat Cleric can be awesome too, so go with what you prefer.
Eschew Materials is really, definitively, not worth it. Maybe grab Heavy Armor Proficiency or Selective Channeling instead.
Other than that, if I were you I might rearrange things so I had Str 17 (raised to 18 at 4th level) and Wisdoem 18, but the way you've got it is good, too.
Pathfinder clerics are basically terrible at everything forever. Oracles make better clerics than an actual cleric does, and they get extra bonuses on top to make the comparison even more one sided.
On top of that, Battle mystery is probably the strongest of the lot, so if you want to play a melee cleric you'll be flying high as a Battle Oracle.
The Exta Revelation feat, as mentioned, is often worthwhile (especially if your DM allows for retraining). The battle revelations are usually stronger than a corresponding melee feat.
Protip: Take a two handed weapon and use power attack. 1 handed weapons are a trap for people unfamiliar with the rules, and the pathfinder -1 attack +3 damage ratio means power attack is the optimal choice 99% of the tmie.
Pathfinder clerics are basically terrible at everything forever.
What makes you say that? They've gotten a few nerfs in the melee department so they don't melee better than a fighter anymore (as was the case in 3.5) but what other issues would there be?
Clerics have always had a weak spell list (compared to a wizard/sorcerer), the reason they were effective is that they could bolster their spells with divine metamagic, and buff themselves to contribute in combat in melee.
Not having divine metamagic in pathfinder seriously hampers what effectiveness they had in the pure spellcasting department. All the buff spells were nerfed so melee effectiveness is greatly reduced, and these nerfed buffs are hit again by the lack of persistant spell.
As additional minor points, clerics now need to multiclass or spend a feat to get their armour proficiency, and the cleric domain powers took a beating: No more free feats or swift action freedom of movements.
The only thing pathfinder clerics gained over 3.5 clerics is the ability to use turn undead as an out-of-combat cure light wounds wand in exchange for actually turning undead.
Pathfinder clerics are basically druids that can't shapechange or summon an animal companion.
Clerics have always had a weak spell list (compared to a wizard/sorcerer), the reason they were effective is that they could bolster their spells with divine metamagic, and buff themselves to contribute in combat in melee.
Not having divine metamagic in pathfinder seriously hampers what effectiveness they had in the pure spellcasting department. All the buff spells were nerfed so melee effectiveness is greatly reduced, and these nerfed buffs are hit again by the lack of persistant spell.
As additional minor points, clerics now need to multiclass or spend a feat to get their armour proficiency, and the cleric domain powers took a beating: No more free feats or swift action freedom of movements.
The only thing pathfinder clerics gained over 3.5 clerics is the ability to use turn undead as an out-of-combat cure light wounds wand in exchange for actually turning undead.
Pathfinder clerics are basically druids that can't shapechange or summon an animal companion.
The cleric's fighting stuff was reduced so the fighter would not feel useless. That does not make them suck though. They are still decent combatants, and they no longer have to waste spells on curing hit point damage so now they have more spells to buff and remove status affects.
Clerics were insane in 3.5. Just because they're not world-destroyers any longer, doesn't mean they're not useless. However, they are a support class. From my experience, even a Battle Oracle is going to be dishearteningly less accurate and powerful than your full BAB classes.
If I were to build one, I would do it primarily as a buffer and support caster, with decent damage potential, survivability and healing to back you up.
As a battle cleric, I would chose other domains, travel for example.
Your healing ability is good enough already, so I don't think you need the healing domain.
Another option not yet mentioned is the inquisitor; he is really good at combat, lots of skills and would be able to cure some too, just maybe not enough to do all the healing for the whole group.
As a battle cleric you definitely need a high strength score, I play one and although my strength is decent (16+2 belt) it still seems too low, but that's maybe because he fights with a one-handed weapon (cleric of Kelemvor, Bastard Sword and Board).
(Clerics) no longer have to waste spells on curing hit point damage so now they have more spells to buff and remove status affects.
Healing was never something clerics should have done in combat with the exception of the Heal spell, or possibly a rare emergency cure critical. Healing should be done out of combat with CLW wands, regardless of party makeup. (15g heals 5.5hp damage)
Casting buffs once combat has started is bad unless they are quickened, or effect the entire party. Pathfinder clerics can't realistically do either of these things (excepting divine favour at level 9+).
Removing status effects is something you might do once day, and could be done just as well by the druid who is ripping it up in melee in bear form with his pet lion.
A pathfinder cleric is just an embarrassingly underpowered druid.
From my experience, even a Battle Oracle is going to be dishearteningly less accurate and powerful than your full BAB classes.
When I played one (level 8-15) it was outputting similar damage as the party rogue (on average. TWF sneak attack means you spend longer positioning) and only slightly less than the switch-hitting ranger (even with favored enemy). From my experience, battle oracle is getting close to a 3.5 cleric who doesn't abuse nightsticks.
(Clerics) no longer have to waste spells on curing hit point damage so now they have more spells to buff and remove status affects.Healing was never something clerics should have done in combat with the exception of the Heal spell, or possibly a rare emergency cure critical. Healing should be done out of combat with CLW wands, regardless of party makeup. (15g heals 5.5hp damage)
Casting buffs once combat has started is bad unless they are quickened, or effect the entire party. Pathfinder clerics can't realistically do either of these things (excepting divine favour at level 9+).
Removing status effects is something you might do once day, and could be done just as well by the druid who is ripping it up in melee in bear form with his pet lion.
A pathfinder cleric is just an embarrassingly underpowered druid.
From my experience, even a Battle Oracle is going to be dishearteningly less accurate and powerful than your full BAB classes.When I played one (level 8-15) it was outputting similar damage as the party rogue (on average. TWF sneak attack means you spend longer positioning) and only slightly less than the switch-hitting ranger (even with favored enemy). From my experience, battle oracle is getting close to a 3.5 cleric who doesn't abuse nightsticks.
I never said healing in combat was a good idea, but the point was that now the cleric does not have to waste spells on it, in or out of combat.
Your cast buffs idea is nice in theory, but you might want to expand on it to convince peopleDruids don't get resurrection, restoration, break enchantment, remove curse, and probably a few other spells I can't remember off the top of my head, and if you only think status affects are a 1/day threat then your DM is being too nice. The druid is not the healer(and I don't mean hp) that the cleric is.
If all you see a cleric as is a secondary combatant then I see why you think that way, but parading it as a universal truth does not make it true.
edit:I am sure the battle oracle is is not keeping up with a ranger using favored enemy or the guide variant which uses the same bonuses as favored enemy.
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A pathfinder cleric is just an embarrassingly underpowered druid.
Uh huh. Because Druids absolutely get Bless, Shield of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon. Or Enlarge Person, or Protection From Evil, or a lot of the other good enhancement spells. Plus Channel Energy which trumps wands of CLW for out of combat healing (and occasional in combat healing) on so many levels it's not even funny. Plus Domains, many of which are deeply badass on a variety of levels.
I like Oracles as much as the next guy (and more than most), but they lag a level behind Clerics on casting progression, and only get a tiny subset of the possible spells. I love 'em, and their Mysteries do make up for a lot, but they don't walk all over Clerics any more than the reverse.
And as for Druids, well, they're cool and powerful, but an equally optimized Cleric is every bit as effective. In fact, since you seem to care about this, make a thread, and post a Druid Build in it. The one you think will just win vs. Clerics. I'll bet someone will be able to casually match it in a straight fight (or a DPR competition, or whatever) with a Cleric of the same level and monetary resources.
It's true enough that the druid does miss a few of the nice cleric utility spells, but the ones you've listed are often those you get cured of at the temple back at town. Regardless, the druid note was an aside.
The Oracle on the other hand completely dominates the cleric. The cleric spell list is extremely limited, and a lot of the time you're preparing spells 'just in case' that you wont use most of the time. The oracle losses nothing by restricting the spell list, and gain effective spells per day because spell slots aren't wasted on 'just in cases' anymore. If the only thing oracle had going for it over cleric was spontaneous casting it would already be a mechanically superior class.
On top of this, clerics get basically zero class features while oracle mysteries are extremely strong, even for a class which didn't get full spellcasting. As mentioned, battle domain turns the watered down pf cleric back into a psuedo-codzilla and other mysteries make your oracle a full cleric that also puts blaster wizards to shame.
Alternatively you can just take a cleric-style mystery and embarrass the support caster cleric back home to retire and become a farmer.
A pathfinder cleric is just an embarrassingly underpowered druid.Uh huh. Because Druids absolutely get Bless, Shield of Faith, and Spiritual Weapon. Or Enlarge Person, or Protection From Evil, or a lot of the other good enhancement spells. Plus Channel Energy which trumps wands of CLW for out of combat healing (and occasional in combat healing) on so many levels it's not even funny. Plus Domains, many of which are deeply badass on a variety of levels.
I like Oracles as much as the next guy (and more than most), but they lag a level behind Clerics on casting progression, and only get a tiny subset of the possible spells. I love 'em, and their Mysteries do make up for a lot, but they don't walk all over Clerics any more than the reverse.
And as for Druids, well, they're cool and powerful, but an equally optimized Cleric is every bit as effective. In fact, since you seem to care about this, make a thread, and post a Druid Build in it. The one you think will just win vs. Clerics. I'll bet someone will be able to casually match it in a straight fight (or a DPR competition, or whatever) with a Cleric of the same level and monetary resources.
I propose level 10. I still want to see him match a ranger.
A Man In Black (RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32), Mon, Dec 21, 2009, 01:16 AM
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You know, in a lot of these discussions I see "[Class] does a lot of damage" or "[Class] does the most damage" or "[Class] doesn't do enough damage." And most people are speaking from personal experience, which is heavily influenced by books available, player skill, random chance, GM whimsy, dice rolls, and the winds of fate. In order to have a common ground to discuss, let's establish a simple baseline for how much each class is expected to do with a full attack in one round.
To start, we'll need a standardized baseline for all the characters:
Level 10, since pretty much all classes are expected to have come into their own by then, plus it's a good round number. If you don't think this is a good level to use, feel free to redo the math for some other level; I know level 10 is arbitrary and any other level from about 4 on would work just as well.
Elite array. While I know most people play with more forgiving point-buys or rolling schemes, this is a baseline. The CR system was originally based around players using elite array or a comparable point buy.
Standard wealth by level in magic items, but no magic items limited on a per-day or consumable basis.
Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability. Most classes will have a +3 weapon (or 2 +2 weapons or a +2 amulet of mighty fists), a +4 stat booster to their damage-increasing stat, and miscellaneous other items. Most classes will also have boring magical weapons, favoring plain bonuses over fiery or holy or whatnot; this is because it's almost always better DPR and it makes my life easier. Everyone will also have a Heward's Handy Haversack because, seriously, they are level 10 characters.
The most optimal build of each class. If multiple optimal builds are possible (e.g. archery and another style), then each style will be a separate entry. If a build is genuinely more optimal by sacrificing DPR for some other benefit, then the sacrifice will be made. For example, rogues will use Crippling Strike and not Bleeding Strike. With that in mind, feel free to nit-pick the build of any entrant. The idea is that each example is as optimal as possible.
We'll also need a standard for the competition. This standard is meant to best simulate typical combat circumstances, when damage is most on the line.
Target AC of 24. This is the standard for AC at CR 10, according to the Bestiary monster building guidelines.
A single full attack. Classes with significant limited abilities, be they situational ones (favored enemy, sneak attack) or limited on a per-day basis (smite, Quickened Divine Favor), will have their damage figured out both with and without those limited abilities.
No class will be allowed any in-combat rounds to set up. Buffs are part of your baseline if you can apply them yourself, and they either have a duration of 10 min/level or longer or can be applied as a swift/immediate/free action.
The value in DPR of a +1 to hit, a +1 damage, and an additional full-BAB attack will be figured out for each class. Some classes benefit more from one type of buff over another.
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
There is even a spreadsheet here that does the math for you.
Level 10 oracle damage vs. switch hit ranger w/ instant enemy? I said "slightly less", but I'll dig up the character sheets when I get home.
It's true enough that the druid does miss a few of the nice cleric utility spells, but the ones you've listed are often those you get cured of at the temple back at town. Regardless, the druid note was an aside.
The Oracle on the other hand completely dominates the cleric. The cleric spell list is extremely limited, and a lot of the time you're preparing spells 'just in case' that you wont use most of the time. The oracle losses nothing by restricting the spell list, and gain effective spells per day because spell slots aren't wasted on 'just in cases' anymore. If the only thing oracle had going for it over cleric was spontaneous casting it would already be a mechanically superior class.
On top of this, clerics get basically zero class features while oracle mysteries are extremely strong, even for a class which didn't get full spellcasting. As mentioned, battle domain turns the watered down pf cleric back into a psuedo-codzilla and other mysteries make your oracle a full cleric that also puts blaster wizards to shame.
Alternatively you can just take a cleric-style mystery and embarrass the support caster cleric back home to retire and become a farmer.
You are assuming the party can survive the fight without party members being cured(status affect removed) right then and there. If the status affects are don't matter then why do the spells even exist.
PS:Don't just say X can be done, explain how it can be done. Give examples in a real game, at least a theoretical battle.
Most people consider spontaneous casting to be weaker than prepared casting, but that is another thread, and not an accepted truth.
edit:Those utility spells were just off the top of my head. If I had went digging around I am sure the list would get bigger.
"Don't just say X can be done, explain how it can be done." I'm willing, I'm just not sure what you're referring too?
Spontaneous casting is definitely weaker when it comes to the wizard spell list. It's even arguably weaker with the cleric spell list in 3.5 due to the plethora of splat books and massive spell list. In pathfinder the divine spell list is much smaller however, and out of that small list there are exceedingly few must-have spells. In the specific case of pathfinder divine casters, spontaneous casting is superior for this reason as well as the fact that many of these must have spells are ones you wont regularly cast, and instead just take up slots.
In my opinion, the reason for long duration status effects that can't be removed with dispel magic or lesser restoration is simply to make the party weaker for the duration of that particular combat and then use party resources to cure afterwards.
A fight that couldn't be won unless the party had a break enchantment or full restoration prepared and on ready to go isn't something I've encountered before.
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"Don't just say X can be done, explain how it can be done." I'm willing, I'm just not sure what you're referring too?
Your Oracle equalling Ranger DPR. The Druid being superior to every Cleric, ever. Those were the big ones.
As for "party resources to cure afterwards" have you not ever played in a game where the nearest place to get, say, 4th level spells cast was more than a few hours away? Because that situation comes up. Like a lot.
I mean, I'm gearing up to run an AP right now and for 4 out of the 6 parts the PCs have basically no access to 4th level plus spells outside the party itself (in fairness, the reason for that in one of them is that they're 1st-5th level, but still).
On top of this, clerics get basically zero class features while oracle mysteries are extremely strong, even for a class which didn't get full spellcasting.
Uh... Clerics get 2 Domains witch are very strong (on par with Mysteries and generally much stronger than in 3.5). The negative for cleric here is that there is no extra Domain feat. Also Clerics get Channel Energy (witch is not that great i think) and a free weapon proficiency (witch is good as it can save a feat from battle oriented cleric, if chosen well).
Well but most importantly Clerics saves just rock compared to Oracles and Clerics get higher level spells earlier.
With my cleric of Sarenrae I chose to grab Sun and Healing domains. She doesn't melee anymore because the fighter and paladin kill things too well. She mostly casts shield other, protection from evil, magic weapon and bless while the others hack down the bad guys. I've never casted defensively, I usually take a 5' step and then cast which eliminates the need to spend a feat on Combat Casting. Most of the cleric spells don't need materials to cast so taking Eschew Materials is worthless to me. I choose to grab Extra Channel and Selective Channel instead.
I like shield other because when you and your ally take damage, it is split between you and then when you Channel Positive Energy you BOTH get Xd6 for healing. Effectively: half the damage and twice the healing.
Since you want to wade into combat, consider Heavy Armor Profiency.
I mostly jack up my AC and provide Flank bonuses for my allies. If I want to do damage I just cast flame blade as a cleric of Sarenrae (Gods and Magic) and go for touch attacks.
Darvon: I believe the OP asked for cleric strategies and help, not how much clerics suck. I feel your comments are unwarranted and unhelpful for this topic.
On top of this, clerics get basically zero class features while oracle mysteries are extremely strong, even for a class which didn't get full spellcasting.Uh... Clerics get 2 Domains witch are very strong (on par with Mysteries and generally much stronger than in 3.5). The negative for cleric here is that there is no extra Domain feat. Also Clerics get Channel Energy (witch is not that great i think) and a free weapon proficiency (witch is good as it can save a feat from battle oriented cleric, if chosen well).
Well but most importantly Clerics saves just rock compared to Oracles and Clerics get higher level spells earlier.
You also forgot the part where clerics automatically "know" their entire spell list.
The only thing that an oracle has going for it over the cleric is more skills. Which it also has over sorcerers. It's something I'm a bit disgruntled about.
The number's that Darvon is claiming to get likely stems from the fact that the Oracle paths and list force an Oracle to specialize. Yes, I said forced. Once you have entered a path you essentially have to do what makes that path work. An oracle built for combat will be a combat monkey forever, morning, noon and night. He'll never go to bed, wake up and resurrect, the rogue (again) make water, cure all the fighters Wis damage(wraiths are rough) and have enough juice left to turn the sorcerer back to their side so they can untie him. Then he'll run down to the shop and buy himself a sackful of onyx because he heard theres chuul's in the sewers and he wants himself a Chull fast zombie which he hsa Desecrate, Remove PAralysis and Animate Dead prepared for.:)
There's so much more but I'm not here to do a full on comparison.
Darvon: I believe the OP asked for cleric strategies and help, not how much clerics suck. I feel your comments are unwarranted and unhelpful for this topic.
And yet, no chastisement of the posters that question, prod, or poke Darvon about his/her initial attempt at advice - thus encouraging, if not creating, the unhelpful and unwarranted comments (as determined by you)?
How kind of you to give the majority a pass...
Darvon: I believe the OP asked for cleric strategies and help, not how much clerics suck. I feel your comments are unwarranted and unhelpful for this topic.And yet, no chastisement of the posters that question, prod, or poke Darvon about his/her initial attempt at advice - thus encouraging, if not creating, the unhelpful and unwarranted comments (as determined by you)?
How kind of you to give the majority a pass...
Acknowledged.
If you have access to the splat books from 3.5 Divine Metamagic is a really good feat. Powering your metamagic with channel positive/negative energy instead of increase in spell level.
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Cleric
Pros.
1. Full spell list
2. Domain Powers
3. Channel Positive Energy
Con.
1. Lower # of castings per day
2. Limited Spell slots per day
3. No Domains to help any thing out side of casting.
Oracle
Pros.
1. # of castings per day
2. Revelations that help melee, or casting
Con.
1. Limited spell list ( Not realy becous there are only a few spell. That are must have for divine casters.)
So for a melee base the Orcale is better. For casting base there about equale. The domains give alot of options for clerics that are pure casters. How ever there are no domains that are equal to the battle domain for combat.
After playing a divine caster with a reach weapon. I can say that is what all my battle clerics and oracle of battle will use reach weapons from now on. The ability to strike in to melee and cast with out AoO. And being right next to the people you will need to heal. Out weigh the little exata damage you get by wealding a none reach weapon. Just as long as the full BAB that is in front of you. Understands that you are a team and should not go any where with out his pikeman. And you as the pikeman need a back up weapon for when you can't use the pike.
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I see people are talking about how the clerics are lacking in PF but I see the opposite because of the cool stuff they get through domains and channelling
Sarenrae is a good choice
But since healing spells are already given to the clerics and you can already channel healing I wouldn't suggest gettings Healing as a domain. Instead I'd suggest the good domain, I know you can't give you self the "touch of good" and use it that same turn but that is only because there hasn't been a release of a feat or magical item to allow you to apply "touch of good" to yourself and use it that same turn, HINT HINT Paizo. Moving on...
Having the good domain allows you to make your scimitar , yes you are prfeciant in that now, holy at 8th level. That right up there next to the paladin.
For you cleric I'd suggest point blank shot to give that fire bolt an bit more of a punch. This way at 3rd level when you get produce flame you can get rapid shot and throw out 2 flames per round. Produce flames last 3 shots or 3 minutes at 3rd level and that's along time in battle terms. So you don't have to blast all of them after casting, you have options.
5th level, fire ball (OH, THE POWER)
Your build looks like it could be fun and once Faiths of Purity (april), Ultimate magic (may) , Faiths of Balance (june) are released I'm sure you'll have alot more for your character.
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I see people are talking about how the clerics are lacking in PF but I see the opposite because of the cool stuff they get through domains and channelling
Sarenrae is a good choice
But since healing spells are already given to the clerics and you can already channel healing I wouldn't suggest gettings Healing as a domain. Instead I'd suggest the good domain, I know you can't give you self the "touch of good" and use it that same turn but that is only because there hasn't been a release of a feat or magical item to allow you to apply "touch of good" to yourself and use it that same turn, HINT HINT Paizo. Moving on...
Having the good domain allows you to make your scimitar , yes you are prfeciant in that now, holy at 8th level. That right up there next to the paladin.
For you cleric I'd suggest point blank shot to give that fire bolt an bit more of a punch. This way at 3rd level when you get produce flame you can get rapid shot and throw out 2 flames per round. Produce flames last 3 shots or 3 minutes at 3rd level and that's along time in battle terms. So you don't have to blast all of them after casting, you have options.
5th level, fire ball (OH, THE POWER)
Your build looks like it could be fun and once Faiths of Purity (april), Ultimate magic (may) , Faiths of Balance (june) are released I'm sure you'll have alot more for your character.
It's not that at all. As a caster cleric is a little better. As a melee divine caster They are not. Oracle of Battle is far better then any cleric. The difrence in how well a Oracle of Battle functions compared to a Battle Cleric is huge.
Battle Cleric needs: Str,Dex,Con,Wis,Cha Domains: None realy help a melee focused build. Channel Positive Energy: effect depends on how your doing stats. With point buy this is not used much on a melee focused build. feets: posibly weapon proficency, armor proficency, and all the combat feets. Lack of castings per day hurt them in melee.
Oracle of Battle needs: Str,Dex,Con,Cha Revelations: skill at arms, war sight, weapon mastery and there are meny more that make them better at melee. Feets: Power Attack and exta revelation then the normal combat feets. Exta castings realy help with melee.
Casting Cleric Needs: Con,Wis,Cha Domains: almost all of them are good some better then others. Channel Positive Energy: Very usefull out of combat healing. This lets you use your limited spells in combat. Feets: as per any caster metamagic feets plus channel energy feets
Oracle (any of the Casting mysterys.) Con,Cha Reveliations: very focused on the mystery type. Feets: same as cleric
The only real down side. The oracle is realy focused on the mystery for casting effects. The Cleric can cover alot of ground if they know what they need. The cleric domains help them cover a little more ground. The real problem is there are no domains that can help them with melee.
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This is pure speculation ....
If a feat allowed a cleric to use "touch of good" on him self just with touch of good and his base attack bonus he could have an attack bonus before str & feats that is very close to a fighter. Allowing the cleric to come out of the support shell. Something like this should be added since I do see alot of Pathfinder cover art showing the cleric running out on the front of the party with sword in hand stepping up to the front line.
Even "Battle Rage" or "touch of law" would help the cleric perform better if he could use it on himself like how the paladin can use lay on hands on himself.
It's not that at all. As a caster cleric is a little better. As a melee divine caster They are not. Oracle of Battle is far better then any cleric. The difrence in how well a Oracle of Battle functions compared to a Battle Cleric is huge.
Battle Cleric needs: Str,Dex,Con,Wis,Cha Domains: None realy help a melee focused build. Channel Positive Energy: effect depends on how your doing stats. With point buy this is not used much on a melee focused build. feets: posibly weapon proficency, armor proficency, and all the combat feets. Lack of castings per day hurt them in melee.Oracle of Battle needs: Str,Dex,Con,Cha Revelations: skill at arms, war sight, weapon mastery and there are meny more that make them better at melee. Feets: Power Attack and exta revelation then the normal combat feets. Exta castings realy help with melee.
Casting Cleric Needs: Con,Wis,Cha Domains: almost all of them are good some better then others. Channel Positive Energy: Very usefull out of combat healing. This lets you use your limited spells in combat. Feets: as per any caster metamagic feets plus channel energy feets
Oracle (any of the Casting mysterys.) Con,Cha Reveliations: very focused on the mystery type. Feets: same as cleric
The only real down side. The oracle is realy focused on the mystery for casting effects. The Cleric can cover alot of ground if they know what they need. The cleric domains help them cover a little more ground. The real problem is there are no domains that can help them with melee.
My issue with this is you're building a subpar cleric for melee. Why on earth do you even care about having more channel energy's? Why are you the party's main healer and there tank? Stop that. Tell the fighter to quit whining it's only a spear in his spleen the freaking baby.
Why aren't you actually reading your domain powers? None that help melee? I can name like 5 right now: Growth, Destruction, Demon, Ferocity, and Travel. Bam. And there's more where that came from.
"Don't just say X can be done, explain how it can be done." I'm willing, I'm just not sure what you're referring too?
Spontaneous casting is definitely weaker when it comes to the wizard spell list. It's even arguably weaker with the cleric spell list in 3.5 due to the plethora of splat books and massive spell list. In pathfinder the divine spell list is much smaller however, and out of that small list there are exceedingly few must-have spells. In the specific case of pathfinder divine casters, spontaneous casting is superior for this reason as well as the fact that many of these must have spells are ones you wont regularly cast, and instead just take up slots.
In my opinion, the reason for long duration status effects that can't be removed with dispel magic or lesser restoration is simply to make the party weaker for the duration of that particular combat and then use party resources to cure afterwards.
A fight that couldn't be won unless the party had a break enchantment or full restoration prepared and on ready to go isn't something I've encountered before.
An example is a dominated fighter in what is already a boss level fight. Now you have not only lost an ally, but you have gained an enemy. If you don't get that fighter back he will take down a party member, and it will be 2 against the boss + your former friend.
A party member being cursed so he is out of the fight(not affective enough to really matter). I am sure you can think of other situations.
Darvon: I believe the OP asked for cleric strategies and help, not how much clerics suck. I feel your comments are unwarranted and unhelpful for this topic.And yet, no chastisement of the posters that question, prod, or poke Darvon about his/her initial attempt at advice - thus encouraging, if not creating, the unhelpful and unwarranted comments (as determined by you)?
How kind of you to give the majority a pass...
I agree. We should move this derail to another thread if it is that important.
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I am a cleric if Sarenrae with Fire and Healing as my domains.
With the Domains you'll find that some have great powers, whilst others have so-so powers, but great spells.
Fire has so-so domain powers (flinging Fire Bolts is nice and all - who doesn't like ranged touch attacks? - but the damage scales very poorly compared with actual spell damage) but a nice spell selection from traditionally 'arcane only' spells.
Healing is a little weird in that it's really good or really pointless depending on how the rest of your party get along. If they tend to get themselves beat up a lot then Healing rocks - extra healing for anyone who actually drops via Rebuke Death, plus the excellent Healer's Blessing for Empowered Cure spells at level 6. On the other hand most of your Domain Spells are the Cure spells you can cast spontaneously anyway, and you can already channel positive energy for group healing... how much healing does your party need?
Clerics of Sarenrae can also choose from Glory, Good, and Sun (from the Core book), as well as Agathion, Day, Heroism, Light, Restoration, and Resurection (from the APG). It's worth checking them all out, seeing what powers and spells they give (note in particular any spells you'd not usually have access to, since that can be important).
Style: I would like to be a bit of a battle cleric. I like the idea of being in the thick of things. I will melee for sure but only when I get a free round with no one to save/buff/heal.
You're missing some of the prime 'combat' Domains with Sarenrae (such as the Animal Domain with the Boon Companion Feat, or the War Domain for access to nearly all the Combat Feats), but Good grants nice bonuses, as does its sub-domian Agathion, and Heroism is a nice choice too (you get the Heroism spell at level 3 for starters...).
I have decided that since I get spontaneous casting, I won't memorize ANY heal spells (other than domain slots). That way I can maximize my utility and damage spells and simply swap them out for heals when the need arises.
Good call on not memorizing Cure spells. With Rebuke Death and Channel Positive Energy you should be able to save on casting a lot of Cure spells. A lot of the time you'll be better off putting Fire Domain spells into your Domain slots (since that's the main draw of that Domain), but again it'll depend on how battered your friends tend to get themselves.
I'd suggest going one better and leaving a spell slot or two 'open' when you prepare spells as well. Check out the stuff on page 220 of the Core book under 'Spell Selection and Preparation'. Essentially it boils down to you having the ability to fill an 'open' spell slot in a mere 15 minutes. You have access to your entire spell list as a Cleric - the ability to take a quarter of an hour to swipe the exact spell you happen to require is awesome! Don't bother preparing those 'you never know if you'll need them' spells at the start of the day - just leave a slot open, and fill it as the situation dictates. Having Lesser Restoration or Remove Curse prepared... then the party suffering no Ability Score damage or Curses... sucks. Having the option to pop one of those into an open slot in 15 minutes can be a game-saver! I'd advise laughing at the poor Oracle as you pull this trick off... ;)
Just found this thread.
I think clerics are much better than oracles for several reasons.
First Charisma is a dump stat wisdom gives you saving throws.
Second Oracles have slower spell progression.
Third Oracles and the mysteries are week. Example 10 mysteries Vs around 30 domains and 60 subdomains.
Fourth Orcales are cursed.
I can't see an oracle of battle even coming close to a cleric of battle, there is absolutely nothing that gives them an edge. Cleric with fury of the abyss power 20th level simply owns a oracle of battle.
I want to see an Oracle with Fireball/Flamestrike and Channel Energy. To my knowledge this isn't Society legal.
Nope. But then I wouldn't be using those spells as a cleric either.
I can't see an oracle of battle even coming close to a cleric of battle, there is absolutely nothing that gives them an edge. Cleric with fury of the abyss power 20th level simply owns a oracle of battle.
I think the key thing to remember is that the oracle is nto limited by his alignment or god in what mysteries he takes. In order to get the Demon domain you typically have to be a CE or CN cleric. An oracle of battle can be battle pathed all day every day regardless of alignment.
Now personally, I prefr to get all Erastil with Growth adn Feather domains.
I get a super awesome perception check, and the equivalent of a 5th level spell from level 1. Later on I get my choice of druid animal companions that I can take a feat to be equivalent to amnd lastly I can be spiky.
Longbow proficiency is just the cherry on top.
You can also make an effective battle cleric with the Tactics and Heroism domains. Allowing you to grant initiative rerolls to anybody while having an aura of heroism and a touch ability that lets you boost charisma checks. Lastly it effectively gives you the ability to have any combat feat you could ever want so long as you qualify.
Now if you want raw unhindered power Gorum demands you take Ferocity and Destruction. Basically letting you hit so hard coke will shoot out of your GM's nose.
Personal preference, I suppose. But I like having Fireball as a domain spell at low levels.
I admit I do rather like the domain when it comes to NPC's. I had a 6th level half dragon cleric absolutely terrorize my group of 7th level characters by flying around and unleashing his repertoire of burnination. Heck he never even had to land and make use of his ridiculous strength score.