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Very true... if you take the Perception rules too strickly, then (for example) it's impossible to see the moon... ever...
The problem with the written perception rules is the "... depending on how noticeable the detail is" comment about DCs. Taken in combination with its application to "noticeability of the detail", it seems to suggest size matters... a great deal.
Yet, all visible creatures are put in one category in the very next table, seemingly in contradiction of what they just wrote. (see page 102)It would seem logical that the inverse of the size modifiers (per the stealth modifiers on page 106) should apply. It is most definitely NOT as easy to see a fine creature as a colossal creature at ANY given range.
Is anyone aware of any rulings on this? Am I missing something elsewhere in the rules? Does Paizo usually issue corrections to obvious oversights like this? If so, where would it be?
To address the quote above, the moon is 11,400,262 feet wide. Every five feet in width (beyond the first five) should decrease the perception DC by four. So the base DC to notice the moon at point blank range would be -9,120,205.
At its average distance of 1,256,640 feet (+125,664 to perception DC due to a +1 DC per ten feet), that should be a DC of -8,994,541 to notice the moon.
So yes, you should see the moon... you can't miss it in fact.
Your maths is horribly wrong
Moon is 1.2 billion feet so...1,256,640,000 feet away.....so +125,664,000
to DC
and is 11,404,800 feet wide....so -9,120,205 to DC
so 'somewhat tricky to see'
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Your maths is horribly wrong
Moon is 1.2 million feet away BUT isnt 11 million feet wide!!!!!
Actually diameter math was good:
Diameter of moon is 2,159 miles x 5,280 feet per mile for 11,399,520 feet in width.
http://www.universetoday.com/19677/diameter-of-the-moon/
Distance math (both yours and mine) was off:
Distance to the moon is 238,857 miles x 5280 feet per mile for 1,261,164,960 feet. Yes, that is 1.2 billion, not million.
http://www.universetoday.com/103206/what-is-the-distance-to-the-moon/
The increase to the perception DC is one tenth of that, so +126,116,496. Minus 9,119,612 for size (decrease in DC equal to four fifths of its size in feet beyond the first five feet)...
So the corrected DC to see the moon would be 116,996,884.
Oh what a difference decimal places make! XD
So actually it would be impossible to see the moon, even with size adjustments to perception DCs.
In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 40 feet, although the specifics of your map might restrict line of sight. Cover and concealment are not uncommon, so a good place of refuge is often nearby, if not right at hand.
Detail Perception DC
Notice a visible creature 0
Perception Modifiers DC Modifier
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
Consider the concept "Line of Sight" often used. Certain lighting conditions reduce the maximum distance something can be seen.
The DC to notice a visible creature is the DC for visibility. Many seem to think this means at point blank distance. If instead it is at the limit to Line of Sight, then it is the DC at the maximum encounter distance. For plains, that would be 6d6*40'.
With this RAI, the sniper 500' away, would be within the average 840' encounter. Therefore, the DC would still be 0, unless the 6d6 rolled low.
According to Wikipedia(Sniper Rifle), range is:
The most popular military sniper rifles (in terms of numbers in service) are chambered for 7.62 mm (0.30 inch) caliber ammunition, such as 7.62×51mm and 7.62×54mm R. Since sniper rifles of this class must compete with several other types of military weapons with similar range, snipers invariably must employ skilled fieldcraft to conceal their position.
The associated table shows those ammo to be 800 meters (~2625').
Since this distance needs camouflage (i.e. Stealth) to work, Line of Sight in real life is very far.
If you rule the maximum encounter distance as the point of DC 0, then any closer distance is also DC 0, but father gets the -1/10'.
I think this makes much better sense for RAI for Perception(Sight).
Thoughts?
/cevah
I only apply such ridiculous range penalties on Perception checks made during combat, where everyone's attention is divided and things are easily missed. Exceptions abound of course.
That's actually a reasonable rule. I might suggest that the Perception check penalties apply primarily to *noticing* things at such a range. Viewing/tracking/observing something that is visible/already noticed should probably be less.
Edit: As a houserule I should say.
I'll be honest, I can't remember half the post I read and the OP one. My answer will be on the situation only (a sniper at 500ft from his targets, in an ideal firing position).
In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 40 feet, although the specifics of your map might restrict line of sight. Cover and concealment are not uncommon, so a good place of refuge is often nearby, if not right at hand.
Detail Perception DC
Notice a visible creature 0
Perception Modifiers DC Modifier
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
As mentionned just before, here is how it worksby RAW. But I'm not sure if it implies anything in 6d6 * 40 ft = DD 0 to spot (it seems odd to me), or you need to make a DD 50 (Seems odd to, but less).
But here's some other informations:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present.
I think in this situation, the "sniper" still need a move action to spot his targets. He can even take his time and make 20. Then as long as his targets don't break his line of sight, he can do his job without problem. I think this is where the trick is: You can spot someone at great range thank to the "I take 20" system. And when everyone got his cover, it probably become a "take 10" or "take 20" on perception checks contest.
Anyway: Remember the modifiers are a generic yet simple way to emulate distance penalty. If you want to houserule, I think you can reasonably lower the DC (by 25-33% maybe) and let your players "take 20" by move actions. This way, you probably can play a little game of deadly "hide-and-seek".
Here's the deal about encounters like this one:
1. If you're a DM and want to rule an encounter like that, be sure to find something to entertain your players. This "sniper" can just be a way to restrict an area or a way for players, but they can find a shelter or, even better, an underground way to deal with this "sneaky bastard". But NEVER "challenge" your players in a way they can't fight back at all. They'll hate you and probably murder you in your sleep if you kill their beloved characters that way.
2. It's a player and want to do that. Fine. Maybe he'll succeed in his first attempt. Then it will probably draw attention, people will develop ways to avoid being killed (just find another path ?) and someone will definitly try to deal with this guy. I'm sure there is a LOT of way to overcome his ideal position. Use your imagination, and never hesitate to hit a PC in his weak spot from time to time, especially in a situation like that.
On the "Sniping goggles" side:
The "no range limit" part isn't a problem. Really. I suppose that most of the time, you can't see your targets a way he can't fight back/run away when you got it.
When you're a DM, you know what they got, and probably what they intend to do. Occasionally, let them accomplish what they want, you need to satisfy them from time to time. But the other times, don't go easy on them either.
According to me, this item is more or less the only reason rogues are still potent ranged PC. And I still prefer Zen archer or Ranger.
Lets make a scope item that allows you to see further!
Like this one ? xD
Spyglass: Objects viewed through a spyglass are magnified to twice their size. Characters using a spyglass take a –1 penalty on Perception skill checks per 20 feet of distance to the target, if the target is visible.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Underdark_Exploration_(4e_Variant_Rule)#Seeing _Distant_Light
It seems to be a houserule for 4th Edition, so... Maybe a bit misplaced in a Pathfinder Rule Questions forum ;)
But I concur on he fact that even a distant light in the darkness can be spotted easily, but pinpoint the exact location/distance from where you are can be not that easy.
I'm curious about DC & stuff, I'm a little lazy to find out.