So the other night we were playing our serpents skull group.
Witch/Druid 4/4
Magus 8
Gunslinger 8
Ranger 8 (was a rage prophet, long story on that one)
Ronin 8
Because of the lack of some other things going on in the AP, I let some other things take effect that caused the following scenario:
In this AP, (or version thereof) The PCs are on a mission to clear a ziggurat that has been taken over and over grown by a sentient living corrupt plant and it's "in habitants"
In order to kill the plant, which we were all referring to as "the tree"
the PC's had to 'invade' the tree. which moved and attacked on his own (similar to but slower than a Harry Potter womping Willow)
The Pc's being assaulting the tree and fighting vegepygmies on the lower level, pretty easy kills, except for their leader which wasnt, and escaped.
Some PC's found movement extremely difficult (heavy armor and shields trying to climb a moving tree)
Some of the tree's limbs worked like escalators (moving up, moving down) others working like lifts (up, down, sideways) and others attacked (used stats for assassin vines)
The mid levels of the tree I filled with "tree boggards" (basically tree frog versions of boggards)
Some hard fights there as a few of the leaders had character levels, rivaling the PCs.
Judicious use of a cure disease and several lightening bolts basically killed the tree and everything that lived in it, at the lower to mid level. Leaving only the top levels, the boss and the heart of the tree to kill.
Low on healing, and all major combat spells used, the PC's lowered them selves out of the tree and camped, to attack on the final assault upon first light.
Which gave the Hag that lived in and controlled the tree, time to plan.
The final fight consisted of 8 assassin vines, 30 veggiepygmies , a veggie boss, a vrylokakas, a Hag with levels of sorceror, and a hezrou.
The Hag opens up by charming the ranger, and the (vampire) charms the wolf companion. The Hezrou isn't there yet. The PC's dispatch veggie pgymies and a few vines with lightening bolt. Animal companions, familiars and ranged attacks abound.
The Gunslinger moves around with a 22 acrobatics by jumping alot.
Basically the encounter goes for about 5 rounds, when the PCs managed to dispatch all the pygmies ,except the boss ,and the vrk-what-ever vampire.
Enter Hezrou.
The demon teleports onto the limb with the gunslinger.
The ronin has basically not moved the entire fight and there for hasn't done anything but shoot mundane arrows, and it can almost be counted like she's not there.
The witch is plumb out of useful spells (took alot of healing spells) the dwarf is anchored, and the dino-campion is fatigued, weakened, and sickened, not to mention down to 2 hit points)
the wolf hasn't done anything the whole encounter either.
The magus works his way over to the Hag to finish her off, the witch and magus have been working on the hag for quite some time who tried to escaped via invisibility, but the witch has 12 doses of dust of appearance.
Gunslinger get's hit three times by the demon, but manages somehow not to get grabbed.
Pops him three times at point blank range managing to get through 50 damage (the demon has dr10/good)
the gunslinger might have done better to fall out of the tree on purpose and take falling damage.
the witch sends her familiar to heal the gunslinger.
Next turn the demon connects does tons of damage and grabs the gunslinger. How because he's grabbed is now nauseated (failed save).
The gunslinger is now pinned (cant move) and nauseated (which means he cannot do anything but move) so the gunslinger can't DO anything.
The Ranger, Witch and Magus end up dropping the Hag finally and the Magus, and Ronin (finally, after the other PC's screamed at her 'why don't you do something besides shoot that bow!") and Dwarf Ranger close to do nasty hand to hand with the Demon.
Demon Goes first, and kills the gunslinger outright.
That's basically it, Yea the Demon could have been a total party kill if it wanted to spend that much resources on the party, but it's write up says it isn't willing to, a few rounds later the PC's drive the demon off.
But the Gunslinger got one round of shots off and then it was basically dead.
Touch AC or not, there are obviously high level monsters that can teleport in on him and kill him quite quickly.
Yes, he had difficult terrain to deal with too, but point still stands, against certain things, they are quite deadly, but they cant kill everything.
On another Note, the PCs brought his body back to get reincarnated (the only spell they had access to) and he has been risen as a dwarf.
The spell says to take his human bonuses to physical stats away and apply the new race (dwarf) as a human he used his +2 on wisdom.
A dwarf gets +2 wis, +2 con -2 chr.
so would I A) subtract nothing and add dwarf adjustments on top, since the spell says nothing about adjusting his mental stats. OR
B) take all human adjustments off (including mental) and add dwarf template?
The way I see it, dropping +2 human wis then adding +2 dwarf wis is moot. So would stay the same any how. Would he get -2 char tho? if he would get -2 chr, would he get to keep the +2 human wis and get +2 dwarf wis on top of it?
The spell says keep mental stats same.
Except if that's the case and the human bonus went to a mental stat, then he loses nothing and gains +2 con, right?
Effectively giving him +2 base wisdom and +2 base con while losing nothing?
(well except he moves slower, because he's a dwarf)
you ever notice there isnt a single base race that loses dex?
I really think the dwarf should lose dex instead of char (they are boxy and cumbersome).
So the other night we were playing our serpents skull group.
Witch/Druid 4/4
Magus 8
Gunslinger 8
Ranger 8 (was a rage prophet, long story on that one)
Ronin 8Because of the lack of some other things going on in the AP, I let some other things take effect that caused the following scenario:
In this AP, (or version thereof) The PCs are on a mission to clear a ziggurat that has been taken over and over grown by a sentient living corrupt plant and it's "in habitants"
In order to kill the plant, which we were all referring to as "the tree"
the PC's had to 'invade' the tree. which moved and attacked on his own (similar to but slower than a Harry Potter womping Willow)The Pc's being assaulting the tree and fighting vegepygmies on the lower level, pretty easy kills, except for their leader which wasnt, and escaped.
Some PC's found movement extremely difficult (heavy armor and shields trying to climb a moving tree)
Some of the tree's limbs worked like escalators (moving up, moving down) others working like lifts (up, down, sideways) and others attacked (used stats for assassin vines)The mid levels of the tree I filled with "tree boggards" (basically tree frog versions of boggards)
Some hard fights there as a few of the leaders had character levels, rivaling the PCs.Judicious use of a cure disease and several lightening bolts basically killed the tree and everything that lived in it, at the lower to mid level. Leaving only the top levels, the boss and the heart of the tree to kill.
Low on healing, and all major combat spells used, the PC's lowered them selves out of the tree and camped, to attack on the final assault upon first light.Which gave the Hag that lived in and controlled the tree, time to plan.
The final fight consisted of 8 assassin vines, 30 veggiepygmies , a veggie boss, a vrylokakas, a Hag with levels of sorceror, and a hezrou.
The Hag opens up by charming the ranger, and the (vampire) charms the wolf companion. The Hezrou isn't there yet. The PC's dispatch veggie...
Good job on the playtest I thought it was very informative.
You apply no mental adjustments from Reincarnate. So you'd just apply a +2 Con.
And I, too enjoyed the story. It's enlightening. I was worried about using gunslingers in my game, but I think I'll allow them because of this. If it turns out they're overpowered...I'm curious to see how they handle a tarasque. :P
As a side question Pendagast, with regard to your party Druid4/Witch4, do you run that straight up as a 4th level caster on both sides, or do you have some kind of house rule that makes it more effective?
Also as a side question (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic or mean here - just trying to get a feel as my next character was going to be a gunslinger), but are you aware that just a quick preliminary total of xp for this encounter, not including things like environmental hazards, etc, is easily cresting the CR13 point, which is "TPK is almost guaranteed" range for a party of 8th level PCs?
I am also wondering if you realize that you teleported a monster that all by itself is a CR 11 encounter (an "epic challenge" for the entire party) into base contact with a ranged character who had no viable escape route besides "fall and take damage"? A level 8 "tank" style character would likely be reeling or unconscious from 3 rounds of a hezrou with no healing. I mean, yes, the writeup says it leaves after a bit, but if it just focus fires anyone in that group for 2 or 3 rounds... they're dead.
It really kinda sounds like you wanted the gunslinger dead on this one. That and you've kinda ruined me on this adventure path a little bit. If this is truly how this encounter is written, where a (Party Level+3)CR monster shows up "for a few rounds just to throw a monkey wrench into things", I don't know if I even really want to proceed with it. Can anyone confirm/deny this is the actual encounter for me?
As a side question Pendagast, with regard to your party Druid4/Witch4, do you run that straight up as a 4th level caster on both sides, or do you have some kind of house rule that makes it more effective?
The witch/druid has magical knack as a trait which gives her +2 caster levels on witch. I think she has a feat somewhere or is going to get a feat that gives her more witch caster levels too. So not necessarily house rule, there is stuff in the rules for it.
Also as a side question (and I'm not trying to be sarcastic or mean here - just trying to get a feel as my next character was going to be a gunslinger), but are you aware that just a quick preliminary total of xp for this encounter, not including things like environmental hazards, etc, is easily cresting the CR13 point, which is "TPK is almost guaranteed" range for a party of 8th level PCs?
I am also wondering if you realize that you teleported a monster that all by itself is a CR 11 encounter (an "epic challenge" for the entire party) into base contact with a ranged character who had no viable escape route besides "fall and take damage"? A level 8 "tank" style character would likely be reeling or unconscious from 3 rounds of a hezrou with no healing. I mean, yes, the writeup says it leaves after a bit, but if it just focus fires anyone in that group for 2 or 3 rounds... they're dead.
It really kinda sounds like you wanted the gunslinger dead on this one. That and you've kinda ruined me on this adventure path a little bit. If this is truly how this encounter is written, where a (Party Level+3)CR monster shows up "for a few rounds just to throw a monkey wrench into things", I don't know if I even really want to proceed with it. Can anyone confirm/deny this is the actual encounter for me?
The Demon IS in the AP, But the initial encounter (or even ever meeting it) is different. It's more or less 'optional' if the PCs even get to it/find it. The is some write up on how it behaves, which is what I used.
Typically, when we play, we do no go by WBL and CR style stuff. This means the players can have huge win falls, or get ganked on treasure, they can wade through kobold guts or run down the road screaming "the dragons are comming the dragons are comming"
We call this style of play 'Tolkien-ism' as in bilbo vs, the trolls or smaug. Or considering non of the dwarves would have been prepared for the battle of five armies.
In this case A) the party was really bored with the AP as written.
B) The gunslinger was wasting alot of challenges.
C) The Demon had already been let out by NPC's and technically had nothing to do with THIS encounter, other than I had preplanned for it to "jump in on the PCs" when they were in a fight already.
D) who the Demon ported in on was actually a random roll of the dice.
Also take into account that the gunslinger could have jumped away onto another branch or some other action of escape but was getting cocky and decided to give the demon all barrels a blazing.
Also note that the Gunslinger did give the demon the most damage out of the group, and had he not gotten grappled, the gunslinger would have had a decent chance of killing it.
Also note: this encounter is NOT in the AP. This end of the city was rewritten and the events leading up to it tweaked because the party was bored, and prefers more "hands waving in the air on a frantic retreat" style of playing.
Sure they won, but it was long, drug out and hard.
They almost got geeked on another exploit wandering into the guarded tomb of savith (also not in the AP) when they came up against 4 alchemical golems.
But they used terrain and maneuvering to their advantage to divide and conquer, but did almost lose half the party, not to mention it took them half a real time day to manage to even get into the tomb and were pretty badly damaged getting into the tomb to begin with before going into the first room and encounter (designed that way)
As a side question Pendagast, with regard to your party Druid4/Witch4, do you run that straight up as a 4th level caster on both sides, or do you have some kind of house rule that makes it more effective?The witch/druid has magical knack as a trait which gives her +2 caster levels on witch. I think she has a feat somewhere or is going to get a feat that gives her more witch caster levels too. So not necessarily house rule, there is stuff in the rules for it.
Was just wondering, because normally I'd always expect such a character to jump into Mystic Theurge at 7th level. As an alternative my GM put in place multi-class feats that let levels from two classes stack in some regard with others to determine class features. For dual spellcasters he let 1/2 of their levels in one stack for the purpose of determine spellcasting access of the other, while stacking fully in in regards to caster level.
E.g. a Druid4/Witch4 would cast spells as a 6th level Druid and 6th level Witch, with a caster level of 8 in each, rather than as a 4th level in each, with a caster level of 4. Worked out pretty well so far (13th level party).
As others have said, any character would get tooled in that situation. If the hezrou had ported in front of the ronin, dead; the magus, dead; witchdruid, dead. I'm not sure what this playtest reveals about the gunslinger.
Though I do love the visual of a writhing tree that has moving platforms. I might want to steal that combat arena.
As a side question Pendagast, with regard to your party Druid4/Witch4, do you run that straight up as a 4th level caster on both sides, or do you have some kind of house rule that makes it more effective?The witch/druid has magical knack as a trait which gives her +2 caster levels on witch. I think she has a feat somewhere or is going to get a feat that gives her more witch caster levels too. So not necessarily house rule, there is stuff in the rules for it.Was just wondering, because normally I'd always expect such a character to jump into Mystic Theurge at 7th level. As an alternative my GM put in place multi-class feats that let levels from two classes stack in some regard with others to determine class features. For dual spellcasters he let 1/2 of their levels in one stack for the purpose of determine spellcasting access of the other, while stacking fully in in regards to caster level.
E.g. a Druid4/Witch4 would cast spells as a 6th level Druid and 6th level Witch, with a caster level of 8 in each, rather than as a 4th level in each, with a caster level of 4. Worked out pretty well so far (13th level party).
witch/druid cant go into MT until it is 5/5. requirement is 3rd level spells which both classes do not get until 5th level.
Wizard/ cleric could do it at 7th.
As others have said, any character would get tooled in that situation. If the hezrou had ported in front of the ronin, dead; the magus, dead; witchdruid, dead. I'm not sure what this playtest reveals about the gunslinger.
Though I do love the visual of a writhing tree that has moving platforms. I might want to steal that combat arena.
Ronin and Ranger have way more HPs than the gunslinger does, and better CMBs (wisdom doesnt make for a good cmb) The Magus has more tricks up his sleeve. And in most cases the other classes (with the exception of the ronin) would have boogied out of there, Gunslinger gives you a bit of "I can take him" ism.
The ranger, witch and magus were busy with the hag.
Had the Hezrou jumped in on that fight, and not tangled up the gunslinger? I'd wager they would have had one dead Hezrou. It's not like the gunslinger died first round, took three to kill him.
The real killer was being grappled/pinned AND nauseated. The pin keeps you from moving, and the nauseated allows only moving, so therefor you can do nothing. IF he was just pinned, the gunslinger still could have shot the demon.
Which brings up a good point, if the demon had pinned the gunslinger, but the slinger used targeting and successfully tripped the demon using targeting leg, what would have happened in that case?
What if he targeted head and confused him?
Or the hand and disarmed him?
Could he have used that ability in some way to end the grapple??
Tripping doesn't end a grapple, but it certainly helps as it gives a grappler a -4 penalty from being prone
Confusion would have helped, either via getting anything other than act normally on the roll, or immediately attacking him triggering the "attacks the attacker" clause (would release the grapple and begin attacking)
Uh...the Mystic Theurge requirement is 2nd level spells. A Witch/Druid can get it the same level as any other prepared Caster (7th).
witch/druid cant go into MT until it is 5/5. requirement is 3rd level spells which both classes do not get until 5th level.
Wizard/ cleric could do it at 7th.
LOL so it is! wonder why we had it stuck in our head as third.... what PrC has a 3rd level spell requirement? Trickster? EK? maybe thats what we were thinking of.
LOL so it is! wonder why we had it stuck in our head as third.... what PrC has a 3rd level spell requirement? Trickster? EK? maybe thats what we were thinking of.Uh...the Mystic Theurge requirement is 2nd level spells. A Witch/Druid can get it the same level as any other prepared Caster (7th).
witch/druid cant go into MT until it is 5/5. requirement is 3rd level spells which both classes do not get until 5th level.
Wizard/ cleric could do it at 7th.
I just talked to her, she went to fourth level witch because she wanted the hex. She went to 4th level druid because she wanted wild shape. I guess i was just thinking she was going 5/5/10 witch/druid/MT
The PC's dispatch veggie pgymies and a few vines with lightening bolt.How does this happen? Aren't vines immune?
-James
i was using vines as a base stat instead of making up my own "diseased tree limbs"