|
1. I would rule that the character can pass through an incorporeal creature, but if he does, he immediately is subjected to the creature's primary attack. And this attack is not considered an attack of opportunit, thus the incorporeal creature gets two attacks. Of course, the creature has to roll for the attack, but the character is considered flat-footed, since he willingly attempted to pass through the creature.
2. They don't. Unless you shoot at someone with a ghost touch weapon.
Just my 2c
Dearest Masters of Lore,
I have a few questions regarding incorporeal creatures and interactiong with them. I had a quick look at the archives but could not find a thread that was dealing with my questions. If these questions have already been asked I apologize.
My group is at the moment a round or two away from a TPK. The only way to escape for some of us would be to somehow make it through a crowd of incorporeal undead and evil outsiders to rally around the character which can teleport away.
My questions:
1. Are there any special rules for moving through incorporeal creatures?
2. Are there any special rules if incorporeal creatures grant cover differently from corporeal creatures.
I know that there is nothing in the incorporeal description and that I am grasping at straws but hey, any port in a storm. :-)
Thanks in advance
Simkiria
Why is there a possible TPK? What is going on within the game?
my guess is the session got called several rounds into combat and will resume same bat time same bat channel next session.
1. Are there any special rules for moving through incorporeal creatures?
Not really. Generally speaking, you cannot move through an opponent occupied square without tumbling. There are exceptions if one of the parties is significantly larger or smaller than the other, with the idea that an elephant won't block a mouse moving through the square and vice verse.
I'd treat the incorporeal creatures in a similar way. That is, their presence doesn't create a physical barrier to movement, unless that person has cast Mage Armor or Shield, or is wearing Ghost Touch armor, etc. Moving through that square would provoke an attack of opportunity, just like the other cases.
2. Are there any special rules if incorporeal creatures grant cover differently from corporeal creatures.
Hmmm. Since incorporeal creatures take 50% damage from corporeal sources, I might be inclined to give a 50% chance of an incorporeal granting cover for any given attack. That might get to be a bit much on the bookkeeping front though. Might be easier to just grant half of the normal cover bonus and be done with it.
2. Are there any special rules if incorporeal creatures grant cover differently from corporeal creatures.Hmmm. Since incorporeal creatures take 50% damage from corporeal sources, I might be inclined to give a 50% chance of an incorporeal granting cover for any given attack. That might get to be a bit much on the bookkeeping front though. Might be easier to just grant half of the normal cover bonus and be done with it.
Unless you're using nonmagical weapons, which cannot affect incorporeal creatures.
Unless you're using nonmagical weapons, which cannot affect incorporeal creatures.
True, but I view taking no damage from nonmagic weapons as a separate issue from a 50% miss chance. That is, a weapon will still impact the target or miss with the same frequency, but it will do no damage if it isn't magical.
If the weapon impacts the target and does no damage, anyone behind that target would be receiving cover.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here.
If this is from an AP I might know where they are. I suggest running away and coming back later. Take the AoO and hope for the best on your way out.
Hi, Simkin
Bestiary, p. 301:
"An incorporeal creature can pass through solid objects..."
"An incorporeal creaure's attacks pass through (IGNORE) natural armor, armor, and shields..."
"Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions."
Core Rulebook
p. 160 Holy Water
"A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour
the holy water out onto the target."
p. 193 Obstacles
"Flying and incorporeal creatures are able to avoid most obstacles."
p. 250 Blink
"An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures."
p. 306 Mage Armor
"Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can’t bypass it the way they do normal armor." [as mentioned in the above reply]
p. 463-464 Ghost Touch
"Incorporeal creatures gain the armor’s or shield’s enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects."
p. 567 Incorporeal Creatures
"Creatures with the incorporeal condition do not have a physical body."
As such, I'd say incorporeal creatures can't grant cover nor count they as being an obstacle to be avoided with a successful Acrobatics check.
Hope that'll help us all! :)
Unless you're using nonmagical weapons, which cannot affect incorporeal creatures.True, but I view taking no damage from nonmagic weapons as a separate issue from a 50% miss chance. That is, a weapon will still impact the target or miss with the same frequency, but it will do no damage if it isn't magical.
If the weapon impacts the target and does no damage, anyone behind that target would be receiving cover.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here.
Note that the rules for damaging ghosts and what not have changed in PF. There is no longer a 50% miss chance. Magic weapons do 50% damage, but will hit per the normal rules.
|
As such, I'd say incorporeal creatures can't grant cover nor count they as being an obstacle to be avoided with a successful Acrobatics check.
Hope that'll help us all! :)
In this case, I would not view the acrobatics check as needed to pass through the square, but to avoid the AoO. Failure means that you still move through the space, but you eat an attack.
Can a character get any benefits to AC by declairing full retreat?
Unless someone can curse the Gms dice, it's likely the adventure path is ruined.
Are the undead ghosts? Maybe one of them can possess a character and go to the teleporting character to escape. Do you want to play it Silent Hill and have the now dead characters go find new PCs to haunt and get them to finish the mission?
The last straw for me and Living Keoland was Veins of Trust. Only one shape changing character was able to grow wings and get out. The other PCs including my Sorc. were unreclaimable.
Can you run for your life as an immediate action?
Signature
Warning, my spelling is very bad and I like puns.
I don't believe anyone else suggested this, but you could attempt to overrun your way to the teleportician. Incorporeal undead don't typically have great CMDs and even if you don't have the appropriate feat, the best they will get is an AoO.
It does seem that the party has gotten themselves into a sticky situation though. It might be best for the teleportician to consider the party a lost cause, teleport to a safe haven, and hire more adventurers.
A party member can pass through an incorporeal, but it would provoke an AoO as soon as them move further than a 5-foot-step. (excluding movement feats like Spring Attack)
However... Movement rules say you cannot occupy the same space as an opponent (would have to look it up for exact wording) and most of the incorporeal rules above say "pass/move through". It's a very good question.
My advice to avoid TPK:
As the GM in this game, I have decided to allow the character to pass through the incorporeal creatures' spaces, and they can try to use Acrobatics to avoid an attack of opportunity, if they are lightly encumbered at most. I don't think, however, I will allow them to end their movement in a square occupied by one of the creatures.
Unfortunately, some of the incorporeal opponents have a special ability that allows them to "materialize" their claws and grapple as if they were corporeal creatures. They also have the grab ability, and I think it is allowed for them to make use of this ability when making an attack of opportunity. Is that right?
In the spirit of full disclosure:
The adventure is Into the Maw from Savage Tide, and the incorporeal creatures are
As written, creatures with the Grab ability will indeed get to use that ability on an attack of opportunity.
In regards to Daniel Moyer's statements about Spring Attack tactics:
For example, shadows have an intelligence of 6. This level of intelligence denotes more than just a feral/instinctive understanding of their own capabilities. Shadows should be dastardly enemies using pockets of darkness and the very walls, ceilings, and floorspace as locations to hide and launch attacks. In fact, every incorporeal creature I could find had at least an intelligence of 5 (from the Bestiary or Bestiary 2).
Now, if Daniel's problem lies in the DM switching the monster's feats around to include Spring Attack I can begin to understand the issue. However, even without the feat, the tactic is still extremely useful because it denies enemies some attacks against them. In my opinion (thus the realm of DM fiat), as long as the enemies fit the flavor or the story and skill level of the players, the DM should not pull punches.
As written, creatures with the Grab ability will indeed get to use that ability on an attack of opportunity.
In regards to Daniel Moyer's statements about Spring Attack tactics: ** spoiler omitted **
Maybe you can blame the adventure path and start over with someone else GMing.
Firstly, incorporeal creatures do not, I repeat DO NOT have any kind of miss chance. They are immune to normal weapon damage and they take half damage from magic weapons and spells. Spells that don't do damage have a 50% chance of working. Since weapons can still hit them, even if they do half or no damage, they grant cover.
Incorporeal creatures are still creatures. They command their own square just like normal creatures. By RAW they cannot move through your square and you cannot move through their square without tumble checks or some other exception to the normal rule. That said, house rules to the contrary shouldn't unbalance most encounters.
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. If an incorporeal creature is being smart and attacking from inside walls, you can just ready an action to hit it when it comes out.