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The Warlock is a cookie cutter class that uses a simple generic mechanic.... Character can do xD6 damage times level at will.
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It is just a generic damage machine with a few flowery titles and names thrown on it. It is a cardboard character class with no depth. Just like the Warlock. Thats pandering to the Munchkin. give them the damage machine they want just so you can sell books.
First point, the damage actually isn't xd6 per level because at the upper end, the progression slows to every three levels instead of two. It's not that impressive for a damage machine.
Second, that's your own view of it. The class had plenty of flavor provided, and Eldritch Blast was not the only mechanic to it. I had more trouble with the at will Baleful Polymorph and Black Tentacles than anything else.
There's a strong group of D&D player-base who consider any non-traditional fantasy influences (be it video games, anime/manga or steampunk) as an anathema.
All of which only amounts to me saying, D&D already breaks from a lot of tradition about fantastic events, creatures, and people, so doing a little more doesn't hurt anything; and what does it matter if video games and D&D influence each other?
I agree with that ..partialy.
Having alternative campaign styles in special one shot adventures or a setting made to sell to a specific crowd (Ravenloft or Darksun for example) is great. When you try to squeeze it into the core game, then you make a grave error.
D&D was always the best RPG for Sword & Sorcery style, hands down.
Traveller was the best Sci-Fi for a long while. Gamma World was the best (and only) post apocalypse game for a decade.
WotC made an error when it tried to import elements from these games into the core D&D rules. They did things like add robots (aka Warforged), Spacecraft (Spelljammer) and a lot of Gamma World monsters to the monster manuals.
It was sort of like Kentucky Fried Chicken trying to out "Hamburger" Burger King. It would be a folly.
Pathfinder has (so far) remained true to the Sword & Sorcery roots, which may explain why many folks gravitated to it rather than to D&D 4e.
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Maybe some are of the opinion that the warlock might seems a bit too "videogamey" to them due to that "all-day-at-will-no-downtime" arcane blast. Personally, I don't agree with such a viewpoint but it does seem to exist.Some video games have a positive impact on PnP gaming (The Elder Scrolls series and Dragon age games), while others like (Diablo and World of Warcraft) have IMHO have damaged it.
Meh, I'd trade bog-standard Always Chaotic Evil orcs for WoW's in a heartbeat. (in fact I did, before Warcraft 3 ever came out)
WotC made an error when it tried to import elements from these games into the core D&D rules. They did things like add robots (aka Warforged), Spacecraft (Spelljammer) and a lot of Gamma World monsters to the monster manuals.
It was sort of like Kentucky Fried Chicken trying to out "Hamburger" Burger King. It would be a folly.Pathfinder has (so far) remained true to the Sword & Sorcery roots, which may explain why many folks gravitated to it rather than to D&D 4e.
Numeria and Alkenstar
And one man's "staying true to the roots of Sword and Sorcery" is another man's "limiting possibilities arbitrarily out of a misguided sense of tradition". Different people like different things.
WotC made an error when it tried to import elements from these games into the core D&D rules. They did things like add robots (aka Warforged), Spacecraft (Spelljammer) and a lot of Gamma World monsters to the monster manuals.
It was sort of like Kentucky Fried Chicken trying to out "Hamburger" Burger King. It would be a folly.
You do realize that spelljammer was pre-3rd edition right? And Gamma World had crossovers with D&D since advanced? IN FACT the advanced DMG had a section in it to specifically help with Gamma world/D&D cross overs.
And I'm aware of robots in D&D long before warforged where in it.
While it is true that any class can be abused, the reason that the Warlock was Munchkin centric is that at the time it was produced, it was at the time that WotC was dumping out content just to sell books.
I still don't think this word means what you think it means. "Munchkin" typically refers to someone who wants to "win" at D&D. Which means they want OVERPOWERED options, regardless of complexity. In fact, many of them want the most complex options possible, so that the DM will be less likely to catch on to their shenanigans.
You seem annoyed at people who play D&D as if it were a blast-'em video game, and while I can sort of understand that (given that D&D is a lousy venue for that sort of game), it's not being a "munchkin" in any way, shape, or form.
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WotC made an error when it tried to import elements from these games into the core D&D rules. They did things like add robots (aka Warforged), Spacecraft (Spelljammer) and a lot of Gamma World monsters to the monster manuals.
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Pathfinder has (so far) remained true to the Sword & Sorcery roots, which may explain why many folks gravitated to it rather than to D&D 4e.
As has been alluded to, the Pathfinder Chronicles setting has a crashed starship in there (Numeria) and the rpg has a class called the Gunslinger.
If you're going to have a go at WotC at least hold Paizo up to the same standards! :(
the reason i liked the warlock is because the class was step away from the vancian system. especially when there were few molds used for 'casters' i liked the book of 9 swords, the expanded psionics handbook, tome of magic, and magic of incarnum because they all stepped away from the vancian mold. the interesting part of the shugenja was that your choice of element and order played a big role in your spell selection. unlike cleric domains.
You do realize that spelljammer was pre-3rd edition right? And Gamma World had crossovers with D&D since advanced? IN FACT the advanced DMG had a section in it to specifically help with Gamma world/D&D cross overs.
And I'm aware of robots in D&D long before warforged where in it.
Yes, A lot of this started in 2nd edition but carried over to 3.5ed
Robots from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks don't count.
They were not made into the Droidesque character race for the default setting either.
There was a six-shootin' cowboy god in Greyhawk too.
Just ONE Cowboy!
Gygax never put a whole culture of Cowboys (or character class) in the Greyhawk world...you had to find a game crossover gate to the BOOT HILL game for that.
While it is true that any class can be abused, the reason that the Warlock was Munchkin centric is that at the time it was produced, it was at the time that WotC was dumping out content just to sell books.I still don't think this word means what you think it means. "Munchkin" typically refers to someone who wants to "win" at D&D. Which means they want OVERPOWERED options, regardless of complexity. In fact, many of them want the most complex options possible, so that the DM will be less likely to catch on to their shenanigans.
You seem annoyed at people who play D&D as if it were a blast-'em video game, and while I can sort of understand that (given that D&D is a lousy venue for that sort of game), it's not being a "munchkin" in any way, shape, or form.
Hmmm..Fair enough.
Point taken.
WotC made an error when it tried to import elements from these games into the core D&D rules. They did things like add robots (aka Warforged), Spacecraft (Spelljammer) and a lot of Gamma World monsters to the monster manuals.
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Pathfinder has (so far) remained true to the Sword & Sorcery roots, which may explain why many folks gravitated to it rather than to D&D 4e.As has been alluded to, the Pathfinder Chronicles setting has a crashed starship in there (Numeria) and the rpg has a class called the Gunslinger.
If you're going to have a go at WotC at least hold Paizo up to the same standards! :(
I don't have a problem with a one shot adventures with a sci-fi theme (ie. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks). I would have a problem if blasters and light sabers were to be added to the CORE equipment lists, even if they thinly disguised them as something like a "Starman's Wand" or some other hype.
As far as the Gunslinger class goes, I get the feeling that it will be optional and some (but not all) adventures specifically for a gunslinger centric campaign or AP will cater to it.
I would not like if all new APs were required to add stuff for gunslingers (ie: Part of the bad guys treasure is a +2 Flaming flintlock).
the reason i liked the warlock is because the class was step away from the vancian system. especially when there were few molds used for 'casters' i liked the book of 9 swords, the expanded psionics handbook, tome of magic, and magic of incarnum because they all stepped away from the vancian mold. the interesting part of the shugenja was that your choice of element and order played a big role in your spell selection. unlike cleric domains.
There seems to be a significant opposition to the Vancian model of magic. I can live with it, but would not mind trying a system that had magic in a Fletcher Pratt / L. Sprauge D'camp (sp?) style.
Having a system where even the lowly 1st level apprentice could ATTEMPT a 9th level spell (usually with some horrible side effect if he failed) would be fun. Any spell would be possible, but the chance to cast it sucessfully would depend on caster level. Add in some side effects for critical failure and it would feel much more like magic and less like the war gamming mechanic that it originated from.
You do realize that spelljammer was pre-3rd edition right? And Gamma World had crossovers with D&D since advanced? IN FACT the advanced DMG had a section in it to specifically help with Gamma world/D&D cross overs.
And I'm aware of robots in D&D long before warforged where in it.
Yes, A lot of this started in 2nd edition but carried over to 3.5ed
Robots from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks don't count.
They were not made into the Droidesque character race for the default setting either.
To be fair Warforged were not for the default setting in 3.5 -- they were for a specific setting that was optional for everyone. Ebberon still isn't technically a "default" either -- forgotten realms is.
As such they are as optional for the default as gunslingers are for pathfinder (or rather will be).
You do realize that spelljammer was pre-3rd edition right? And Gamma World had crossovers with D&D since advanced? IN FACT the advanced DMG had a section in it to specifically help with Gamma world/D&D cross overs.
And I'm aware of robots in D&D long before warforged where in it.
Yes, A lot of this started in 2nd edition but carried over to 3.5ed
Robots from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks don't count.
They were not made into the Droidesque character race for the default setting either.To be fair Warforged were not for the default setting in 3.5 -- they were for a specific setting that was optional for everyone. Ebberon still isn't technically a "default" either -- forgotten realms is.
As such they are as optional for the default as gunslingers are for pathfinder (or rather will be).
I think that WotC ditched Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk for Ebberon when 3.5 came out.
I think that WotC ditched Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk for Ebberon when 3.5 came out.
No... Ebberon came out at the end of the 3.5 life cycle.
In fact the "standard" gods for the "default" from the 3.5 books were Greyhawk gods iirc. Forgotten realms started taking over more when the transition from 3.0 to 3.5 happened, mainly due to the popularity of R. Salvator and his books (Drizzt's and the like) having a good time about then, as well as several video games that were fairly popular at the time being in forgotten realms.
Any class can be ran
It is just a generic damage machine with a few flowery titles and names thrown on it. It is a cardboard character class with no depth. Just like the Warlock. Thats pandering to the Munchkin. give them the damage machine they want just so you can sell books.Damage machine, really? It does crap damage. Either we have a different definition of the word munchkin, or you are not explaining yourself well. Any real munchkin never chooses this class without resorting to a CO type build, but we already agreed that a CO type build can make any class useful so as far as the class itself I don't see a reason to pick it if I ever choose to embrace my inner munchkin.
PS:Are you trolling? I am serious.
D&D was always the best RPG for Sword & Sorcery style, hands down.
Traveller was the best Sci-Fi for a long while. Gamma World was the best (and only) post apocalypse game for a decade.WotC made an error when it tried to import elements from these games into the core D&D rules. They did things like add robots (aka Warforged), Spacecraft (Spelljammer) and a lot of Gamma World monsters to the monster manuals.
It was sort of like Kentucky Fried Chicken trying to out "Hamburger" Burger King. It would be a folly.
I have a problem with this quote mainly because it showcases one of the main problems I had with the perspective of many gamers during v3.5. If you didn't like the flavor of the class (mechanics aside, I don't think they're overpowered at all) why didn't you bother to change them? Not one place in the 'rules' of v3.5 did it say "This is how the class plays and the theme of the class shall be so. Deviation from this style or 'fluff' will not be tolerated!". Nothing states you can't change the entire class's focus from the hellish-born powers to something completly different (I like the idea of a Eldritch Soul myself) or even change the class name. So it won't be called Warlock, big whoop! So it's not geared towards a person with powers gained from dark entities. If anything the existance of the Dragonfire Adept shows that the same style of mechanics can be applied to a different theme altogether.
Fluff has never been the problem of v3.5's multitude of classes, mechanics sure, but saying "this class isn't even close to the classic feel of fantasy" is just down right unimaginative. Just make it so, sheesh.
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I don't have a problem with a one shot adventures with a sci-fi theme (ie. Expedition to the Barrier Peaks). I would have a problem if blasters and light sabers were to be added to the CORE equipment lists, even if they thinly disguised them as something like a "Starman's Wand" or some other hype.
How do you feel about Golarion's Numeria nation? It can't be written off as a one shot, it is an integral part of the setting.
But as has already been said, Warforged weren't in the core rules in 3.5, and only made it into the core rules for 4e as a Monster race (in MM) - the full PC rules for Warforged are in the Eberron Players Guide.
I am not familiar with Spelljammer but again I don't remember seeing starships in the core rules of 3.5 or 4e.
As far as the Gunslinger class goes, I get the feeling that it will be optional and some (but not all) adventures specifically for a gunslinger centric campaign or AP will cater to it.
They are legal for play in Pathfinder Society games and people have already expressed a concern over how it changes the feel of the game when a player with a gunslinger turns up to play at your table. Unfortunately with organised play a GM cannot disallow gunslingers.
As I say, I don't mind the fact that you dislike certain aspects of WotC's D&D but just realise that Paizo is equally "guilty" of including such stuff in their core rules and core setting.
How do you feel about Golarion's Numeria nation? It can't be written off as a one shot, it is an integral part of the setting.
Numeria is just one area. I'm sure there will be adventures made for those who want to play there. It would be a mistake to blend in too much of Numeria into the Core rules (rather than being an add on for those who want it)
Think of it like selling a pizza creation kit.
It's better to sell a basic cheese pizza with different types of toppings in a package to allow you to add them yourself than to sell a pizza with EVERYTHING on it and expect the buyer to pick off the toppings that they don't want.
As far as the Gunslinger class goes, I get the feeling that it will be optional and some (but not all) adventures specifically for a gunslinger centric campaign or AP will cater to it.They are legal for play in Pathfinder Society games and people have already expressed a concern over how it changes the feel of the game when a player with a gunslinger turns up to play at your table. Unfortunately with organised play a GM cannot disallow gunslingers.
As I say, I don't mind the fact that you dislike certain aspects of WotC's D&D but just realise that Paizo is equally "guilty" of including such stuff in their core rules and core setting.
I like Pathfinder and hope they don't go the "Pizza with everything" route. The gunslinger may be a topping that some people want but not everyone. I'm still deciding if it will fit in my campaign.
I prefer a pure sword & sorcery campaign to one which looks more like a game of RIFTS.|
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Think of it like selling a pizza creation kit.
It's better to sell a basic cheese pizza with different types of toppings in a package to allow you to add them yourself than to sell a pizza with EVERYTHING on it and expect the buyer to pick off the toppings that they don't want.
I can agree with this, I just don't see how this isn't what WotC are doing if Paizo isn't.
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Think of it like selling a pizza creation kit.
It's better to sell a basic cheese pizza with different types of toppings in a package to allow you to add them yourself than to sell a pizza with EVERYTHING on it and expect the buyer to pick off the toppings that they don't want.
Great! Thanks! Now I need to go get myself a pizza.
I really enjoyed the chances I had to play a Warlock. I opted for the "fey pact" style of fluff over the infernal pact BS for flavor. The build I had the most fun with was pairing Warlock with Scout, either in gestalt or multiclassing. I was sorely disappointed to see no Pathfinder love for the Warlock. I only recently got the Tome of Secrets, so I've not yet had opportunity to try out the PF-compatible version now available.
Wonder who I can bribe into running a game for me...just so's I can play a Warlock...
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I remember the only Warlock I have ever played quite fondly. She got her abilities after taking a trip to Arboria.. unfortunately, the final stop on this trip was right next to a Rift to the Plane of Shadow.
After she got back she found out she could create blasts of color and even had some slight Synesthesia. Ever one of her invocations had some sort of colorful visual effect, and she was loved by all the members of the adventuring party.