what mechanical effect would you give it then?
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Course most people I've seen so far don't seem to have a problem with the rule because they just avoid the issue entirely, or their group is tight knit enough.
I'm pretty sure, that if there was more stuff that completely relied on interpretation like this, like some spell that had iffy wording that would allow it to do way more than it was probably intended to do, your group would be perfectly fine with it, because you've already 2nd edition-ed it. (come up with your own, possibly unspoken, house-rules that everyone just abides by, thus negating any potential problem it may have possessed in the first place.)
It's a house rule to abide by exactly what it says in the book?
It is a valid point that the game mechanics could be more specific about certain things, but the fact that your appearance changes is blatantly clear. Just because some specific details about a rule are vague doesn't mean you toss it out entirely.
How do you treat illusion spells like silent image which don't have any "mechanical effects" at all? Do you just ignore those too?
Course most people I've seen so far don't seem to have a problem with the rule because they just avoid the issue entirely, or their group is tight knit enough.
I'm pretty sure, that if there was more stuff that completely relied on interpretation like this, like some spell that had iffy wording that would allow it to do way more than it was probably intended to do, your group would be perfectly fine with it, because you've already 2nd edition-ed it. (come up with your own, possibly unspoken, house-rules that everyone just abides by, thus negating any potential problem it may have possessed in the first place.)
It's a house rule to abide by exactly what it says in the book?
It is a valid point that the game mechanics could be more specific about certain things, but the fact that your appearance changes is blatantly clear. Just because some specific details about a rule are vague doesn't mean you toss it out entirely.
How do you treat illusion spells like silent image which don't have any "mechanical effects" at all? Do you just ignore those too?
No, i use silent image to create murders for all these straw men you two make.
There are actually specific mechanics that are going on there.
1) it is a spell. It used a spell slot to create it. But mutagen uses a mutate slot, I already hear you cry..
Which brings us to..
2)"Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)"
Right there is a mechanical effect. Actually there is several.
You are concentrating on the spell, and well it doesn't produce a number of sensory effects. But most importantly it has the ability to generate an opposed roll.
Mutated into a form that looks like X doesn't. Well that's not quite true, I guess it does, but you gain no mechanical bonuses to your disguise check, even if its not a disguise. (Neither is using beast shape 1. But you still gain a +20 bonus to disguise for that)
And exactly what it says in the book? If I don't take things that have an obvious visual effect, (feral, draconic, growth) Exactly as it says in the book I can also have absolutely no change in appearance.
what mechanical effect would you give it then?
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What mechanical effect would you give a fighter swinging his sword and rolling a natural 20, then another nat 20 on the confirm?
What mechanical effect would you give a fighter swinging his sword and rolling a natural 20, then another nat 20 on the confirm?
Mechanically the second nat 20 has no further effect other then to confirm, so aside from avoiding my question I don't get your point. (although personally I have a secondary crit system for this sort of happening)
And even with absolutely no change in appearance if you so chose, (other then the changes for looking stronger etc.) you will act completely different (remember completely forced alignment change). I dont honestly know how you as a DM could justify someone figuring out this was once your original character.
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No, i use silent image to create murders for all these straw men you two make.
There are actually specific mechanics that are going on there.
1) it is a spell. It used a spell slot to create it. But mutagen uses a mutate slot, I already hear you cry..
No... I'm not trying to disbelieve it exists, I want to know if it's an ORC. Is that a female orc you've made an illusion of? What is the perception check to determine if it's an orc?
The whole point isn't that there is a save or not, it's that the spell has a vague effect which the GM has to adjudicate or 'house rule' so to speak. Everything about silent image is vague and every GM runs it a little differently.
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Mutated into a form that looks like X doesn't. Well that's not quite true, I guess it does, but you gain no mechanical bonuses to your disguise check, even if its not a disguise. (Neither is using beast shape 1. But you still gain a +20 bonus to disguise for that)
Again... no one is saying it couldn't be clarified.
We just aren't wishing it away as a result.
I don't think you even know what you've been arguing about really.
Here
the reason you don't get a +30 or whatever disguise bonus in mutagenic form is because there is no disguise roll. All attempts to figure out it was once an elf auto-fail. If you decide your mutagenic form looks like your fighter buddy then how could your DM justify that anyone could know its you?
I've been on this the whole time. Earlier I said the class needs some clarification on this stuff, Death and you both go "No it doesn't"
and then I'm like yes it does, here is why..
And now you think I'm arguing against whats in the book as being completely wrong or whatever and it just should be ignored because "its flavor text" as I've put it.
really the whole Time I've been saying "it's flavor text in there, It NEEDS mechanics. I'm not just gonna make it so all attempts to figure out you where once an elf-auto fails. That would be ridiculous."
Remember in Dr. Jekel and Mr. Hyde there were people who did figure sort of that they were somehow a bit similar. The girl from heroes, same deal. People didn't just auto-fail to figure out who was who just because they looked the same.
Other issues I've been on it about
It feels as if they ripped most of 1/3 of the alchemist class out, as many of the mutagens of the master chemist feel like they should have been part of the alchemist, possibly at higher levels.
It doesn't really progress like other PRCs, but progress a little more like an archtype, with a very slight justification that it should be a prc. (the 4 advance mutagens, nimble/brute, disguise, duel mind, and restoring change)
It lacks a capstone. I've yet to see any other PRC that doesn't have a capstone. I've suggested one that would have made it feel even more like dr. jeckal/mr hyde; there are more. The earliest you could have taken level 10 master chymist is level 17.
Its options are lacking. A person earlier went and picked 5 of the 6 traits that I had called as being useful. If ultimate magic gives more mutagen powers to alchemist, the master chemist isn't really gonna stand up to the test of time. Not at all like the other PrCs.
If you take it just as it is, as flavor text, then there is no real complication beyond the player possibly wanting to look different and it having no tactical effect.
Is your book different than mine? Does it have flavor text printed in a different color than the rules so you can tell the difference? Maybe it's in italics.
Because now it is an "Iwin" power for the person who got it. Oh look, I get two compleatly different forms.. So I can play LG and CE. So by day my character is running around being totally LG and at night i slaughter innocents by the dozens (What I actually wanted to do anyways) and no one can every figure out who I am because its an automatic failure.
But now the DM is stuck with attempting to come up with crap like what you said below or with the "female orc" thing. And then the player starts feeling cheated because hell, he never got to roll anything and everyone suddenly knows he is the Incredible hulk who's been going around killing everyone. Or the DM has to figure out a way to force the player to mutate, even to the point of botching numbers just so there could be a crit hit or otherwise just say the character is pressured and needs to make a will save to not mutate.
It's hardly an "I win" power. All it does is lets you turn into someone else. And the while the player might go around killing things, the LG character does not. In fact, he might be really unhappy whith his alter ego.
And it isn't a automatic failure to tell they're the same person. The LG character still might have to confirm his whereabouts the night of the murder, which he can't do. Or some one could just notice they wear the same purple pants.
So you are basically saying you are going to pull the "female orc" stunt.
No, the rules just say that you need your hands to cast a spell with somatic components. Or maybe that's fluff too, I don't know. Perhaps you could check your book and see.
There are no mechanical rules, there is no mechanical benefits.
There are no mechanical rules for what you look like in the first place. Does this mean an NPC that you know can't recognize you? Wait, there's no mechanical rules for meeting NPC's!
I was wondering what strawmen I would face.
Is your book different than mine? Does it have flavor text printed in a different color than the rules so you can tell the difference? Maybe it's in italics.
Actually in my book it uses the word Often and may. It also doesn't say that there is a mechanical changes here other than the alignment change.
There are no mechanical rules for what you look like in the first place. Does this mean an NPC that you know can't recognize you? Wait, there's no mechanical rules for meeting NPC's!
Oz called. They want their scarecrow back. Its pretty ridiculous, these little game you try to play. Again, you don't seem to really have any idea what it is you are arguing about.
See my previous post where I've said something like, "as I've said from the beginning that there should be mechanics written in there. very easy to do. "
I know as a DM I would be using mechanical rules with the master chymist's form. I don't understand why you are so violently against mechanics to support the roleplay that you have to resort to creating ridiculous arguments to argue against.
It's hardly an "I win" power. All it does is lets you turn into someone else. And the while the player might go around killing things, the LG character does not. In fact, he might be really unhappy whith his alter ego.And it isn't a automatic failure to tell they're the same person. The LG character still might have to confirm his whereabouts the night of the murder, which he can't do. Or some one could just notice they wear the same purple pants.
And the previous..
the reason you don't get a +30 or whatever disguise bonus in mutagenic form is because there is no disguise roll. All attempts to figure out it was once an elf auto-fail. If you decide your mutagenic form looks like your fighter buddy then how could your DM justify that anyone could know its you?
The confirming of the whereabout, or the noticing of the purple pants, though would be done also through mechanics.
The point of the pelvic thrusting sorc is that it is a huge change in the way the mechanics work based on the idea of roleplay trumps mechanics as is the case with many of your thinking's on the master chymists alter ego.
At the same time, no mechanics shouldn't trump roleplay either. They are not mutually exclusive things and they need be hand in hand with each other.
Silent image has a number of mechanics already built into it. But you would be daft to think I would let you make the image a turassk just cause you saw it in the monster manual. You'd better believe that there would be a mechanical check to find out if your level 1 wizard even knows what a turassk is. But most importantly, it starts of with mechanical effects that can cause the illusion to fail. I don't have to take out my DM IWIN button and smack the wizard with it. I can actually cause things to happen to make it at least seem as though the wizard had a chance to begin with.
Same thing with that strawman disguise check. As I had said there is a whole chapter on the GM's guide on rewards. But you are wanting a very specific reward, hence the reason for the fighter swinging his sword. Notice, I never said he was swinging at anything. He might be, he might not be. Never said the second nat 20 was even important at all other than confirming the previous, but you had assumed it was.