two kukris on a mobile fighter archtype.
you are making a critical hit fighter -- which means you want as many chances to get a critical as possible with the best chances of the critical landing.
Mobility fighter keeps you full attacking as much as possible, and kukris have the best critical range, and are light weapons. Damage dice don't matter -- critical range and critical multiplier do.
And an 18~20 critical range is going to be equal to a 19~20/x3 weapon.
So the dice doesn't matter, the swings do, and it's equal to the exotic weapon without eating up a feat for exotic proficiency.
Perhaps when you said "Crit" fighter it was a little ambiguous. What is your end goal? Make use of all of the "Critical" feats on your foes as often as possible? Have the most possible damage on critical hits?
Have the most possible damage per turn? Even that is somewhat open-ended. Do you want the most potential damage, or the most reliable damage? Do you want to do more damage under the widest possible circumstances, or just the normal close-range full-attack?
The more we know about what you want to go for, the more we can fill you in on options you may not have thought of, or conditions that may mess you up so you can build around them.
I agree with Abraham Spalding on this. When I think "Critical Fighter" I think of sacrificing some damage and relying on critical feats to really make myself nasty, and the Kukris mean you're going to get more criticals -- and at higher levels, you'll almost certainly have Critical Focus as well as a battery of critical feats, possibly including Critical mastery, so your crits are blinding, exhausting, sickening, bleeding, staggering your foe, etc., and possibly two of those effects each time you make a critical, which again, is more often with the Kukris.
here is my logic
at lvl 20
you crit on all 7 of the kukri attacks 30% of the time
assume each one has a burst enchantment
that means 2.1 of the attacks are crits dealing
{2d4+2x(str+focus+etc.)+2d6}x2+2d10
as opposed to
4 falcata attacks crit-ing 20% of the time 0.8 crits a turn
dealing
(d8+bonuses+d6)x4+3d10
so it's
4d4+4xBonus+4d6+2d10 or a max of 60+4xbonus
or
4d8+4xbonus+4d6+3d10 or a max of 86+4xbonusmore damage for only one feat
Yeah... you didn't do very well with this.
Ok watch:
Falcata at level 20:
Str 36, greater weapon specialization, power attack, weapon training 4, +5 weapon.
20 (BAB) +13 (str) +4(GWS) +4 (weapon training) +5 (weapon) -6 (power attack) = +40
Haste = +41/+41/+36/+31/+26
Damage = 1d8+13+4+12+4+5 (two handed = +6+6 = +12 more damage) = 1d8+50.
Not bad
Now with the Kukris:
Str 36, greater weapon specialization, power attack, leap attack 4, +5 weapons
20 +13+4+4+5-6-2=+38
Haste = +39/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29/+29/+24
Damage = 1d4+13+4+12+4+5 (main hand) = 1d4+38
Damage = 1d4 +13+4+6+4+5 (off hand double slice) = 1d4+32
Now improved critical for both groups:
Falcata 17~20/x3
Kukri 15~20/x2
I have 8 swings with the Kukris and will critical 10% more often per swing.
Once you run the DPR you'll find that it comes out the same IF you take the same number of swings with each weapon.
However since I'm getting an additional 3 attacks that the falcata is not -- I'm going to blow his damage out of the water.
At the end of the day two kukris will out damage 1 falcata.
1 falcata = 1 kukri when it comes to DPR.
I would probably say the Falcata, but the Math gurus should be along in less than two days or so to clear it up once and for all.
As a fighter, base damage dice aren't going to be much of a difference, really. The bulk of your damage is probably coming from your Weapon Training, Specializations, Power Attack, Strength mod, weapon enchantments, and other static add-ons. Multiplying by 3 instead of 2 on a critical hit is harder to replicate through magic than an increased critical chance, even though increases to critical chance are harder to stack in Pathfinder than they were in 3.5.
Also, when you say "go for damage," you should probably add what you want more often.
More critical hits?
Heavier critical hits?
Damage you can do all the time?
Damage you can only get under special conditions?
Also, is there a reason you're using a one-handed weapon but not two-weapon fighting? Do you want to use a shield, or just don't think a two-handed weapon will do you good? 1.5 x Strength mod and an increased Power Attack rate really help damage.
It's been proven repeatedly that the -2 to hit for using two weapons means a 2h build will outdamage a 2 weapon build.
Oh, wait, you're showing a falcata not being wielded 2h?
Then you've got to put in the fact that he's likely got +7 AC and is shield slamming for no penalty in his off hand with a +7 Shield...which would skew the damage again.
4 attacks of the falcata vs 7 of the kukri is also a problem.
You MUST use target AC and hit % to get a real damage calculation.
While I agree that POTENTIALLY the kukri will lay out a lot of damage, in reality it's going to be lower.
On the flip side, getting to use a lot of stunning and bleeding criticals can be fun all on its own.
==Aelryinth
It's been proven repeatedly that the -2 to hit for using two weapons means a 2h build will outdamage a 2 weapon build.
Oh, wait, you're showing a falcata not being wielded 2h?Then you've got to put in the fact that he's likely got +7 AC and is shield slamming for no penalty in his off hand with a +7 Shield...which would skew the damage again.
4 attacks of the falcata vs 7 of the kukri is also a problem.
You MUST use target AC and hit % to get a real damage calculation.
While I agree that POTENTIALLY the kukri will lay out a lot of damage, in reality it's going to be lower.
On the flip side, getting to use a lot of stunning and bleeding criticals can be fun all on its own.
==Aelryinth
No it's not.
AC at level 20 is averaged at 36.
So the hit percentages for the falcata is: 95%/95%/95%/80%/55%
With average damage per hit being 54.5
Which totals for DPR without criticals of 230.375
Now the Kukri is going to be:
Main Hand: 95%/95%/95%/70%/45%
Off Hand: 95%/95%/70%/45%
Main Hand Average Damage:40.5
Off Hand Average Damage:34.5
For a total DPR without criticals of 267.225
Now a weapon with a critical rate of 20 is a .05 critical rate.
A weapon with either a 19~20 critical range or a x3 critical multiplier is a .1 critical rate
A weapon with any of the following: 18~20, 19~20/x3, or a x4 critical multiplier has a .15 critical rate.
Also, what resources are available? Core material only, or anything Pathfinder (Player's guide, for example)?
I'll be wielding it with a shield
and it is a max damage a turn
Core and players guide are available
two weapon fighting and a haste spell -- which I also gave to the falcata user.
Please note I stated at every point that the kukri user should be two weapon fighting.
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I agree with Abraham on this point, when making a Crit Fighter, you need to worry about trying to get as many crits as possible in 1 round. This means two-weapon fighting and weapons with a big crit range. As far as damage goes, it doesn't matter TOO much because you'll be getting X2 or better with the weapons
Saw you posting this on 4chan.
Take the crit-range like Spalding says, it'll do ya wonders.
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I think the issue you are overlooking is the critical feats. Being able to lay down stacking bleed damage, and heavy, crippling conditions are huge. Damage is trivial if you consider the ability to lay down exhausted and stunned with a critical hit.
Okay, consider this as an example: Bleeding Critical deals 2d6 bleed damage, and the effects of the feat stack, meaning you keep adding 2d6 to the bleed damage with each critical hit. At level 11, with duel wielding kukris, you should have 5 attacks, each of them with a crit range of 15-20. Considering I am not a math guru, I wont try to tell you numbers on that. I can say that you have a great chance of scoring at least one critical in a round, and if you have lucky dice you have a fair chance of critical hitting five times in a round. 2d6 to 10d6 bleed, in a single round, is not something to disregard. I don't know many enemies that would last long with 10d6 bleed damage.
Do you use the Critical Hit Deck? Use that in a single session with a critical hit build and you will rethink going shield and falcata. Sure, the effects are random, but there are some nasty results in that deck. Decapitate took one of my characters out, and that was his first time taking damage that fight. I once had a fighter take 7 critical hits in a row from a single kukri wielding enemy. His first one disarmed his shield, the next made all critical hits auto confirm for 3 rounds. After that, it was roll after roll of 15-20 until my party took the guy down. I was missing a finger, exhauseted, had bleed damage, and had taken some ability damage. My sword and board fighter took Shield Specialization the next level so I wont have to panic next time I see a kukri wielding foe.
Last of all, you seem to be looking to build a high damage sword and board, not a critical hit master. If you want a true critical hit master then go duel kukri and seriously look into critical feats. If you wanted a one handed weapon for a sword and board, then go scimitar. No feat involved to use and 18-20 gives the same boost to DPR as 19-20/x3.
It's been proven repeatedly that the -2 to hit for using two weapons means a 2h build will outdamage a 2 weapon build.
Oh, wait, you're showing a falcata not being wielded 2h?Then you've got to put in the fact that he's likely got +7 AC and is shield slamming for no penalty in his off hand with a +7 Shield...which would skew the damage again.
4 attacks of the falcata vs 7 of the kukri is also a problem.
You MUST use target AC and hit % to get a real damage calculation.
While I agree that POTENTIALLY the kukri will lay out a lot of damage, in reality it's going to be lower.
On the flip side, getting to use a lot of stunning and bleeding criticals can be fun all on its own.
==Aelryinth
No it's not.
AC at level 20 is averaged at 36.
So the hit percentages for the falcata is: 95%/95%/95%/80%/55%
With average damage per hit being 54.5
Which totals for DPR without criticals of 230.375
Now the Kukri is going to be:
Main Hand: 95%/95%/95%/70%/45%
Off Hand: 95%/95%/70%/45%Main Hand Average Damage:40.5
Off Hand Average Damage:34.5For a total DPR without criticals of 267.225
Now a weapon with a critical rate of 20 is a .05 critical rate.
A weapon with either a 19~20 critical range or a x3 critical multiplier is a .1 critical rate
A weapon with any of the following: 18~20, 19~20/x3, or a x4 critical multiplier has a .15 critical rate.
1) is he using the falcata in one hand or two? if one, what's he doing with his off hand? Comparing using two weapons against one weapon without using that off hand is already skewed. at the very least, you have to use it two-handed for the Str bonus.
2) You've an error. 19-20 x 3 is a .20 Critical rate, not a .15.
3) what's the Falcata user doing with all the feats he doesn't have to spend on TWF?
==Aelryinth
Maybe if you stopped mix/maxing and started to think more about your characters background and personality it would make roleplaying more fun for you and your fellow games - just a thought.
1) is he using the falcata in one hand or two? if one, what's he doing with his off hand? Comparing using two weapons against one weapon without using that off hand is already skewed. at the very least, you have to use it two-handed for the Str bonus.2) You've an error. 19-20 x 3 is a .20 Critical rate, not a .15.
3) what's the Falcata user doing with all the feats he doesn't have to spend on TWF?
==Aelryinth
1) Two handed for the falcata. I didn't include the 1.5 strength damage which I should have -- you are correct there that would account for another 6 points of damage per hit, meaning +5+5+4.x, and +3 to dpr.
2) I believe you are correct. With improved critical for both they would be even.
3) That's a good question and can help -- I'm just maintaining that the two kukri's will deal as much damage as the falcata if not more.
I agree that a falcata is not a bad weapon -- and it is nice to use with a shield.
I am just saying the expanded critical range is just as good.
Also from the OP's original post I thought he was going for a single weapon -- without the shield feats and what not.
He stated (poorly) that he was making a critical fighter (which implies getting critical hits is very important) and asked about which weapon to use.
He didn't say maximum DPR, he didn't say multiple weapons or anything of the sort. He was also asking for help for the critical weapon fighter.
I was just pointing out the things that make a better critical fighter (namely two weapon fighting, low attack penalties if possible, and high critical ranges).
Maybe if you stopped mix/maxing and started to think more about your characters background and personality it would make roleplaying more fun for you and your fellow games - just a thought.
Or do both. :)
Maybe if you stopped mix/maxing and started to think more about your characters background and personality it would make roleplaying more fun for you and your fellow games - just a thought.
stormwind fallacy -- that is all.
Well, between those two, scimitar is probably your better bet, if only because it does not require a feat to use. You're going to want to use that feat for something else.
looks about right. except I'm not sure how you got the 2d6 scimitar damage... oh ok that's the energy damage included.
I recommend not getting an energy enhancement at later levels -- most monsters are going to end up being immune. Instead go for one (or more) of the alignment based bonuses.
I don't like thundering because it is critical hit only -- as such the alignment enhancements are more likely to see actual use regularly in play.
Maybe if you stopped mix/maxing and started to think more about your characters background and personality it would make roleplaying more fun for you and your fellow games - just a thought.Or do both. :)
In my experience you get better characters and more fun out of playing if your start with the personally and background for the character and then go into the technical stuff later.
Of course it is not a rule that characters with poor numbers will make it more fun to play. I just say that you should start with most important stuff - the personally and that should be the focus - worry about the numbers later.
Base 18-20 is a .15 crit rate. Falcata is firmly better at .2. That's why there's such talk over it, it's definitely better then any other weapon for DPR.
For just scoring crits, yeah, use a Scimitar, or Falchion if two handed. It's all in that 18-20 threat range triggering critical feats.
For DPR, the falcata is currently at the top of the stack.
===Aelryinth