A Red Mantis Dilemma


Rules Questions

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Hello everyone and thanks for reading in advance!

I just got my copy of The Inner Sea World Guide and was blown away at the amazing amount of time, devotion and talent put into this book. I love the excessive amount of information available in this book. Now I'm willing to say that Golarion has beat out Eberron as my favorite setting, and one of the many reasons why is the Red Mantis Assassins.

From the interesting and unorthodox fighting style to the ninja-like castle/temple headquarters and standardized uniform, everything about them makes me love those evil bastards more. I couldn't wait to play one in the next game my friend is running (he already o.k.ed it because he knows I've been wanting to prove that evil can be played at the gaming table if it's done properly, cooperatively, and with maturity). So naturally I threw around some ideas and put some builds together and was shocked . There were so many...problems. It started with one then led to more and more. Let me bullet point:

#1 The Sawtooth Saber- Casually reading through the weapons section, I spied The RMA's favored weapon and noticed that it weapon finesse no longer worked with it (which explained its removal as a prerequisite). In fact, the only time it was treated as light was for Two-weapon fighting. At first, I thought “Alright. Now people won't be power attack & piranha striking, but dex is still very much an assassin staple: stealth, light armor, mobility-style feats like... TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING! Wait, I need a minimum 15 dexterity (provided I don't want to continue the tree), but need strength for hit and damage, charisma for spells and prayer attack, AND constitution for three other class features. But thats...

#2 M.A.D.- Yes folks, my favorite class has become “Multiple Attribute Dependant”, just like the 3.5 paladin. I would love to know the reasoning behind this choice in particular. Never being one to fret when a challenge is set, I continued my build. Looks like two levels of ranger are necessary to free up some of the point buy, but that just doesn't feel right. Was my assassin going to be running around in medium armor? Even the Mantis form reinforced the dex dumping decision with +4 Str,-2 dex, and large size with a 1d6 natural attack (I would bullet point this but it's a minor adjustment... I just wouldn't use it until ninth level, maybe not then either) Crap, I was going to be the slowest assassin in the world. I would have such a hard time making a quick escape with the impedance placed on acrobatics , limited move speed, and penalties (both armor and lack of dex) to stealth, escape artist, ride, and disable device. And I didn't even know if the RMA could cast spells in medium armor. Let me check...

#3 Spell Failure- Turns out the RMA can't cast spells in any armor. The bard-like spellcasting was stripped, and with it the arcane spell failure avoidance. But at least I could still optimize my prayer attack.

#4 Prayer Attack- This is my favorite part about the RMA, their death attack. But from what I can gather is it doesn't work. Maybe it's just me, but how do I maintain concentration (Standard Action) to keep them fascinated on my turn and coup-de-grace (Full Round Action). I hope that at the very least that when concentration lapses, they're still fascinated until the end of your turn. But from what I've seen, that isn't the case. (at this point, I cried a little.)

So here I am, on the boards looking for answers. I would love to hear from what anyone has to say, but especially the reasons behind the decisions from the creators. So I cast my spell:

SUMMON STAFF IX
School Conjuration (Summoning) Level cleric/oracle 9,
sorcerer/wizard 9, summoner 6, witch 9
Casting Time 30 minutes...or less!
Components V, S, M ( a family size pizza and a six-pack
of an alcoholic beverage, worth at least $15.99 American)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./ 2 levels)
Effect one summoned paizo staff member
Duration permanent, until material component is gone (discharged)
Saving Throw None or Will Negates (see text); Spell Resistance No
Calling on the mightiest powers know to be, you summon “The
Grand Designer” himself, James Jacobs. This spell functions as
summon staff I, except it's James Jacobs. The summoned staff
member appears wherever he wants (within range) and questions
why you didn't just post your problem on the boards. Regardless
of your answer, he proclaims “Well. I'm here now. What's the
problem?” and begins to ingest the material component.

Paizo staff members will not interfere with the encounter
in which the are summoned. They make no attacks, cast no spells,
and will likely refuse to “at least hold your weapon while you
use the little adventurers room”. You're the PC, that's your job.

However, when summoned in this manner, James Jacobs
has the power to errata one aspect of the Pathfinder(tm) rules
for a “provisional” 24 hours. This errata is a simple adjustment,
such as the number of hit points a creatures stat block says it
has or that wizards cast off of Intelligence. If this change
affects a creature, that creature gets a will save, but only in
the presence of any PC aware of their presence and only once.
This power does not function on house rules or against big bad
evil guys (bbegs), because where's the fun in that? As is, the
overwhelming power of James' errata pen affects all instances of
the altered rule in the campaign, which may cause some background
events to change (subject to the GM and whether or not the errata
is game destroying or just plain funny). After granting the
errata, James thanks the caster for the grub and returns to the
office, taking the leftovers with him.

After 24 hours, James returns and informs the PC's of the
necessity of the errataed rule, and reinstates the current
campaign ruleset. At this time, James may ask the caster for a
gold or two for the vending machine on his way back. Just give
it to him, he deserves it.

The casting time of this spell is entirely dependant on the
pizza delivery time.

… And hope I get my answer soon! Thank you all for reading my long winded post!


Yowch. Hope this works out for you, Ody. The only way I've found of making such heinous MAD viable is to leave out one component of the build. Focus on the others and exclude the one choice out, to build yourself effectively, despite the loss of flavor.

Monks who never stun, for instance; or who rely almost solely on a boosted wisdom score and focus on damage on stunning, rather than finesse and maneuvers.


Yeah. As great as the Inner Sea World Guide is (and from what I've seen, that's "very"), the weapon and armour chart is just as sucky.

My idea: Use the old sawtooth sabre: An exotic light weapon that can be used like a longsword if you don't have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Odytoboman wrote:

#1 The Sawtooth Saber- Casually reading through the weapons section, I spied The RMA's favored weapon and noticed that it weapon finesse no longer worked with it (which explained its removal as a prerequisite). In fact, the only time it was treated as light was for Two-weapon fighting. At first, I thought “Alright. Now people won't be power attack & piranha striking, but dex is still very much an assassin staple: stealth, light armor, mobility-style feats like... TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING! Wait, I need a minimum 15 dexterity (provided I don't want to continue the tree), but need strength for hit and damage, charisma for spells and prayer attack, AND constitution for three other class features. But thats...

#2 M.A.D.- Yes folks, my favorite class has become “Multiple Attribute Dependant”, just like the 3.5 paladin. I would love to know the reasoning behind this choice in particular. Never being one to fret when a challenge is set, I continued my build. Looks like two levels of ranger are necessary to free up some of the point buy, but that just doesn't feel right. Was my assassin going to be running around in medium armor? Even the Mantis form reinforced the dex dumping decision with +4 Str,-2 dex, and large size with a 1d6 natural attack (I would bullet point this but it's a minor adjustment... I just wouldn't use it until ninth level, maybe not then either) Crap, I was going to be the slowest assassin in the world. I would have such a hard time making a quick escape with the impedance placed on acrobatics , limited move speed, and penalties (both armor and lack of dex) to stealth, escape artist, ride, and disable device. And I didn't even know if the RMA could cast spells in medium armor. Let me check...

These are legitimate complaints... but the Red Mantis Assassin is a VERY specialized character. There's not a lot of wiggle room with this class to do anything other than be a two-weapon fighter. That's by design. If you want to do something else with a member of the Red Mantis, though... you don't HAVE to use this prestige class. The Red Mantis has plenty of minions and members who don't have levels in this class, who also take part in the cult just as much. Levels in "Red Mantis Assassin" are not a requirement to be part of the Red Mantis.

Odytoboman wrote:
#3 Spell Failure- Turns out the RMA can't cast spells in any armor. The bard-like spellcasting was stripped, and with it the arcane spell failure avoidance. But at least I could still optimize my prayer attack.

That's an error introduced at the last minute, alas. Red Mantis assassins should be able to cast spells like bards in light armor without problem. I'll get this into the book's errata.

Odytoboman wrote:
#4 Prayer Attack- This is my favorite part about the RMA, their death attack. But from what I can gather is it doesn't work. Maybe it's just me, but how do I maintain concentration (Standard Action) to keep them fascinated on my turn and coup-de-grace (Full Round Action). I hope that at the very least that when concentration lapses, they're still fascinated until the end of your turn. But from what I've seen, that isn't the case. (at this point, I cried a little.)

The prayer attack allows you to perform a special kind of coup-de-grace; you don't need to take a full-round aciton to do the copu-de-grace in this case, since that requirement's replaced by the 3-round fascination requirement.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

As for the multiple stat dependancy:

A red mantis assassin's most important stats are Charisma and Dexterity.

That's it.

High Int is helpful for more skills, but the Red Mantis gets a pretty good baseline skill mod as it stands. And High Wisdom is helpful for those will saves, yeah... but not necessary for any class elements except perhaps for better skill mods. High Con is no more or no less important to the class than any other class. And although it might seem like high STR is important for the class since they do melee stuff... it's not. The Red Mantis is SUPPOSED to be best when it's attacking flat-footed or unsuspecting targets; it strikes against lower AC in this case and due to sneak attack damage does more damage to them. The Red Mantis is at a disadvantage if it's on its own, and that's the point. They are intended to be ambushers, not toe-to-toe combatants.

If you want someone to be a toe-to-toe badass with the two sawtooth sabres and focus on a more fighter-type melee fighting... build the character as a fighter or ranger, not as a Red Mantis Assassin. There ARE single class fighters and single class rangers in the Red Mantis who do just this thing. And matched with actual Red Mantis Assassins, that combo is pretty brutal.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

3 people marked this as a favorite.

And one more thing. If you like how sawtooth sabres used to work—that the exotic weapon proficiency allows you to treat it as a light weapon... do it. Trust me, it won't hurt your game.

I think we over-nerfed weapons (especially exotic weapons) as it stands. But when it comes to rules decisions... those aren't mine alone to make.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

And also:

Your spell failed to summon me within 24 hours due to a fundamental flaw in its construction: the material components.

Pizza and alcohol are not particularly effective at conjuring me.

Might I suggest replacing "pizza" with abalone or salmon, and replacing "alcohol" with coffee or anything raspberry flavored (yes... raspberry-flavored alcohol WILL work in this regard).


Pizza! OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM!!!


James Jacobs wrote:
replacing "alcohol" with coffee or anything raspberry flavored

Would it make you jealous if you knew that I'm drinking a very tasty beverage called "Aqua Plus Strawberry" while writing this? Because I totally do.

James Jacobs wrote:


(yes... raspberry-flavored alcohol WILL work in this regard).

I must warn you. Do you know Xuxu? Vodka + Strawberry. I do. The memory of that day are as nebulous to me now as they were at the day after, but I still have the scars.

(I'm not even completely joking.)


That sounds like some kinda umbrella drink for Sorority girls.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

KaeYoss wrote:
Would it make you jealous if you knew that I'm drinking a very tasty beverage called "Aqua Plus Strawberry" while writing this? Because I totally do.

A little. But then I could just go make me a Raspberry Screwdriver and not care. :-P

KaeYoss wrote:

I must warn you. Do you know Xuxu? Vodka + Strawberry. I do. The memory of that day are as nebulous to me now as they were at the day after, but I still have the scars.

(I'm not even completely joking.)

I haven't heard of xuxu... but as implied by my above post, I do have some raspberry vodka at hand, so the concept of strawberry vodka doesn't particularly surprise me at all.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
That sounds like some kinda umbrella drink for Sorority girls.

I have no qualms about admitting my tastes in alcohol strongly skew toward umbrella drinks for Sorority girls.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
That sounds like some kinda umbrella drink for Sorority girls.

It was my uncle's 40th birthday, and there was a bottle of that stuff there. I will usually try everything once. It didn't taste bad (at that time of the evening, most things probably would have tasted okay, and some ideas would have started to sound not so bad), so I had more. It might have been most of the bottle.

It might be more fit for girls (though I don't give a damn, really) it packed enough of a punch for a guy.


I'm telling all your German friends.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
I'm telling all your German friends.

They won't believe a leprechaun.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
I'm telling all your German friends.

So you speak German?

Ha, foiled you!

Plus, they wouldn't dare say anything. They would fear the retort.

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
I have no qualms about admitting my tastes in alcohol strongly skew toward umbrella drinks for Sorority girls.

Huzzah.

Gimme fruity drinks with a buncha sorority girls over beers with a bunch of jocks any day!


KaeYoss wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
I'm telling all your German friends.

So you speak German?

Ha, foiled you!

Plus, they wouldn't dare say anything. They would fear the retort.

Nicht sehr viel; aber die meistens deutche sprechen englisch.


Set wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I have no qualms about admitting my tastes in alcohol strongly skew toward umbrella drinks for Sorority girls.

Huzzah.

Gimme fruity drinks with a buncha sorority girls over beers with a bunch of jocks any day!

Great argument.


KaeYoss wrote:
Set wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I have no qualms about admitting my tastes in alcohol strongly skew toward umbrella drinks for Sorority girls.

Huzzah.

Gimme fruity drinks with a buncha sorority girls over beers with a bunch of jocks any day!

Great argument.

Not really; the logic is flawed.


James Jacobs wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
I'm telling all your German friends.
They won't believe a leprechaun.

I have this thread to prove the voracity of my words.


KaeYoss wrote:
Set wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I have no qualms about admitting my tastes in alcohol strongly skew toward umbrella drinks for Sorority girls.

Huzzah.

Gimme fruity drinks with a buncha sorority girls over beers with a bunch of jocks any day!

Great argument.

Yep. I really can't think of anything to counter that.


Sorority girls don't gravitate tords guys in bars with fruity drinks.
You need a lab coat, so they think you're a med student.
True story.


.
..
...
....
.....

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

Sorority girls don't gravitate tords guys in bars with fruity drinks.

You need a lab coat, so they think you're a med student.
True story.

Oh contraire mon ami..

..all you need is a bottle of chloroform, a roll duct tape, a feather duster, a large sound-proofed van and an alibi.

*shakes fist*


BenignFacist wrote:
*shakes fist*

I don't want to know where that fist has been.....*yeesh*

off to mix cherry seven up and Jagermeister; the world needs a drink called the "red mantis."
I'll put a maraschino cherry and some whipped cream in it for those guys.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

You know that feeling you get when you've accidentally derailed a legitimate thread?

I has it. Right now.


I think it was my fault.

Blame it on the My tai's.


Thank you Mr. Jacobs. I'll be sure to edit the component (...maybe a stuffed salmon dish with a honeyed raspberry glaze?)

That said, thank you for the quick response as well. I thought that the armor thing was a fluke but didn't know. As for the weapon, I'm glad to see you thought it may have been depowered as well. Prayer attack didn't say anything about a changing coup-de-gras action, so I'm glad I asked. And as for M.A.D., the alteration to the sword pulls the whole thing back to 3 stats. But I do disagree that con is " just as useful to the R.M.A. as any other class" as 3 of it's class features use con (red mist, negative level bite, and fading). While mearly supplementary abilities, that's like saying a monk doesn't necessarily need wisdom, since it just affects his AC and stunning fist. While playable, your ignoring part of it's abilities.

... And don't worry, James,I don't mind a little fun derailing ( hell, I derailed my own post) and I'm also a "girl drink drunk"( damn apple pucker).


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

Sorority girls don't gravitate tords guys in bars with fruity drinks.

You need a lab coat, so they think you're a med student.
True story.

I work at a gay bar. Trust me they do. They spend five minutes asking me about "fruity drinks" then order a vodka cranberry.


wesF wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

Sorority girls don't gravitate tords guys in bars with fruity drinks.

You need a lab coat, so they think you're a med student.
True story.

I work at a gay bar. Trust me they do. They spend five minutes asking me about "fruity drinks" then order a vodka cranberry.

Yeah, but they got Adam's apples.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Odytoboman wrote:

That said, thank you for the quick response as well. I thought that the armor thing was a fluke but didn't know. As for the weapon, I'm glad to see you thought it may have been depowered as well. Prayer attack didn't say anything about a changing coup-de-gras action, so I'm glad I asked. And as for M.A.D., the alteration to the sword pulls the whole thing back to 3 stats. But I do disagree that con is " just as useful to the R.M.A. as any other class" as 3 of it's class features use con (red mist, negative level bite, and fading). While mearly supplementary abilities, that's like saying a monk doesn't necessarily need wisdom, since it just affects his AC and stunning fist. While playable, your ignoring part of it's abilities.

Well... dependency on 3 stats is hardly new, nor a big problem, in my opinion. I would say, though, that those three stats are Dex, Con, and Cha. Strength is handy... but only when the Red Mantis isn't able to do her thing the way she should be able to. Allowing the sawtooth sabre to work as it used to helps to alleviate that a little, of course... but at the same point, a Red Mantis assassin should NOT just stand toe-to-toe with a foe and fight. She needs to be looking for flanking, stealth attacks, and the like. She should be fighting dirty... and in that case, she doesn't need Strength as much.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
wesF wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

Sorority girls don't gravitate tords guys in bars with fruity drinks.

You need a lab coat, so they think you're a med student.
True story.

I work at a gay bar. Trust me they do. They spend five minutes asking me about "fruity drinks" then order a vodka cranberry.

Yeah, but they got Adam's apples.

Lol. Not those "girls." real girls come in all the time. It amuses me to watch them realize that all of the hot men they are interested in are only interested in each other.

I imagine it would behoove an actual straigh man to hang out at gay bars to pitch up Adams apple free women. It's only a theory though. :-)


James Jacobs wrote:
Odytoboman wrote:

That said, thank you for the quick response as well. I thought that the armor thing was a fluke but didn't know. As for the weapon, I'm glad to see you thought it may have been depowered as well. Prayer attack didn't say anything about a changing coup-de-gras action, so I'm glad I asked. And as for M.A.D., the alteration to the sword pulls the whole thing back to 3 stats. But I do disagree that con is " just as useful to the R.M.A. as any other class" as 3 of it's class features use con (red mist, negative level bite, and fading). While mearly supplementary abilities, that's like saying a monk doesn't necessarily need wisdom, since it just affects his AC and stunning fist. While playable, your ignoring part of it's abilities.

Well... dependency on 3 stats is hardly new, nor a big problem, in my opinion. I would say, though, that those three stats are Dex, Con, and Cha. Strength is handy... but only when the Red Mantis isn't able to do her thing the way she should be able to. Allowing the sawtooth sabre to work as it used to helps to alleviate that a little, of course... but at the same point, a Red Mantis assassin should NOT just stand toe-to-toe with a foe and fight. She needs to be looking for flanking, stealth attacks, and the like. She should be fighting dirty... and in that case, she doesn't need Strength as much.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all melee types need str, Dex, and con? That's hardly new.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

And one more thing. If you like how sawtooth sabres used to work—that the exotic weapon proficiency allows you to treat it as a light weapon... do it. Trust me, it won't hurt your game.

I think we over-nerfed weapons (especially exotic weapons) as it stands. But when it comes to rules decisions... those aren't mine alone to make.

Yeah think I'll just switch that one back to the old version (I agree with the view certain weapons were over-nerfed)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

wesF wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all melee types need str, Dex, and con? That's hardly new.

Strength certainly helps rogues and their ilk (like the Red Mantis assassin), but it's not as required for them as, say, other melee types like fighters.

Because a rogue's primary damage output is expected to be coming from his sneak attack dice, and that means that it's those extra d6s that are piling on the damage, not his strength bonus. And since he's attacking flat footed foes at this point or getting flanking bonuses or both, then his Str bonus (or lack thereof) is partially replaced by the fact that he's aiming at a lower AC than normal.

Strength DOES help the rogue type character, but it's not as important to them as it is to a full Base Attack type character like a fighter.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
wesF wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all melee types need str, Dex, and con? That's hardly new.

Strength certainly helps rogues and their ilk (like the Red Mantis assassin), but it's not as required for them as, say, other melee types like fighters.

Because a rogue's primary damage output is expected to be coming from his sneak attack dice, and that means that it's those extra d6s that are piling on the damage, not his strength bonus. And since he's attacking flat footed foes at this point or getting flanking bonuses or both, then his Str bonus (or lack thereof) is partially replaced by the fact that he's aiming at a lower AC than normal.

Strength DOES help the rogue type character, but it's not as important to them as it is to a full Base Attack type character like a fighter.

I think in this case it is bacause they need the str to hit and damage whereas before Str was really only used for damage which as you said is not all that important


James Jacobs wrote:
wesF wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all melee types need str, Dex, and con? That's hardly new.

Strength certainly helps rogues and their ilk (like the Red Mantis assassin), but it's not as required for them as, say, other melee types like fighters.

Because a rogue's primary damage output is expected to be coming from his sneak attack dice, and that means that it's those extra d6s that are piling on the damage, not his strength bonus. And since he's attacking flat footed foes at this point or getting flanking bonuses or both, then his Str bonus (or lack thereof) is partially replaced by the fact that he's aiming at a lower AC than normal.

Strength DOES help the rogue type character, but it's not as important to them as it is to a full Base Attack type character like a fighter.

I see your point, but I wasn't referring to str for damage output. Without feats, such as weapon finesse, str would be to help hit.

Personally I prefer my rogues Dex based and "bouncy bouncy" types.

Shadow Lodge

wesF wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't all melee types need str, Dex, and con? That's hardly new.

Yes and no. There's "hey this helps" and "I need this to fulfill my primary function." A heavy-weapon DPS fighter can get by with lower DEX and still connect, an Archer reverses that, needing DEX and able to sacrifice some STR. You can't have it all, unless you're rolling stats and get lucky.

Though JJ points out that flanking or attacking flat footed can mitigate a subpar attack roll stat, against a dragon or heavy armor fighter, this hardly matters, especially since TWF cancels flank's bonus.

Then again, maybe I'm overreacting. You'd want your belt to be STR/DEX regardless... so really you're giving up maybe +2 attack. Anyone who's good on the math end care to stat this out? I know the rules, but I'm not as solid on the math of a DPR build. I can't really say this hurts the class without seeing the impact objectively.


wesF wrote:
I imagine it would behoove an actual straigh man to hang out at gay bars to pitch up Adams apple free women. It's only a theory though. :-)

Been there too;

I had a friend who tended bar at one place, he'd comp the bartenders that worked at the gay bar with the pool tables, who'd return comp him with free pool.

I think it was maybe 5:1 to 10:1 population, depending, of "people with the right inputs but were batting for the other team," so we just kinda played free pool.

They ougtta wear shirts that say "I'm a straight chick, I'm just at a gay bar for some reason; buy me a drink!"


James Jacobs wrote:
Well... dependency on 3 stats is hardly new, nor a big problem, in my opinion. I would say, though, that those three stats are Dex, Con, and Cha. Strength is handy... but only when the Red Mantis isn't able to do her thing the way she should be able to. Allowing the sawtooth sabre to work as it used to helps to alleviate that a little, of course... but at the same point, a Red Mantis assassin should NOT just stand toe-to-toe with a foe and fight. She needs to be looking for flanking, stealth attacks, and the like. She should be fighting dirty... and in that case, she doesn't need Strength as much.

At this point I'm not disagreeing with you. 3 stats is basic and I would have said the same 3 (dex, cha, con) as well. The point I was trying to make was if you leave the sawtooth sabre as currently is , strength becomes your fallback " to hit" stat, meaning 4 stats. I agree rogue type characters could easily dump str in favor of other stats, but those characters almost always take weapon finesse or go ranged ( heck, it's so popular among those types that there is a rogue trick for it). Just because this type of character can attack a smaller AC doesn't mean the opportunity will always arise, and in these instances that extra oomph helps.

Frankly, I'm just glad to see prayer attack works just fine, as that's my favorite part of the class.


This whole problem is caused by the fact that NPCs usually ambush the PCs and thus get to use their Sneak damage for "most of their life".

PCs Rogues on the other hand are used to GMs screwing them by having even Int 1-7 monster avoiding the Sneaks most of the time forcing the Rogue to deal toe to toe damage, in which case Str is mandatory...


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
I'm telling all your German friends.

So you speak German?

Ha, foiled you!

Plus, they wouldn't dare say anything. They would fear the retort.

Nicht sehr viel; aber die meistens deutche sprechen englisch.

It's "Nicht sehr viel, aber die meisten Deutschen sprechen Englisch."

And I know a lot of people whose English is either non-existent or not good enough to understand you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
wesF wrote:
Lol. I imagine it would behoove an actual straight man to hang out at gay bars to pitch up Adams apple free women. It's only a theory though. :-)

It works. I have had multiple players over the years of the 'fey' persuasion and even run a game of RoboRally in a gay pub in Atlanta (DragonCon). Have also been the only straight (often refered to as hopelessly straight) male in the bar when frustration finally gets to some 'far hotter than I have a right to look at' babe HAS to have a man. Being told 'you'll have to do' can be a blow to one's pride, though...


we just finished a lvl 10 game. I had a monk on 20 pt buy where I used 14 14 14 10 14 10 fatter gear race levels etc it was 18 str 18 dex 16 wis. really the same principles of character design should work fine for the assassin a +16 or so to hit should be do able at lvl 10. unless you insisted on power attacking you would hit the ideal targets for this class easily.

the only thing though is my monk did not have the bad guys save vs anything. (was a weapon adept) so the fact that some of the mantis powers need saves may be the issue here?


Bwang wrote:
wesF wrote:
Lol. I imagine it would behoove an actual straight man to hang out at gay bars to pitch up Adams apple free women. It's only a theory though. :-)
It works. I have had multiple players over the years of the 'fey' persuasion and even run a game of RoboRally in a gay pub in Atlanta (DragonCon). Have also been the only straight (often refered to as hopelessly straight) male in the bar when frustration finally gets to some 'far hotter than I have a right to look at' babe HAS to have a man. Being told 'you'll have to do' can be a blow to one's pride, though...

"fey" lol. I like that. I'm gay myself and I've played with all kinds of groups. The vast majority of gamers that I know/have known are hetero. An observation, not a judgement. Hetero-centric groups are fun and all. However in college I played with an all gay group. That was A-Lot of fun. Gay gaymers are a unique group. If you ever have opportunity to play with a mostly gay group I encourage it. Admitedly I'm bias, but In most aspects of life "the gays" are more fun. For most the social pressure to conform has already been abandoned. And by "conform" I mean the not wanting to stand out in a crowd part. ;-)


KaeYoss wrote:
...And I know a lot of people whose English is either non-existent or not good enough to understand you.

Especially since you come from a region in germany that's almost french :)


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:


They ougtta wear shirts that say "I'm a straight chick, I'm just at a gay bar for some reason; buy me a drink!"

Someone should sell shirts like that. Might make some decent dough.


MicMan wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
...And I know a lot of people whose English is either non-existent or not good enough to understand you.
Especially since you come from a region in germany that's almost french :)

You can do two things here: Either apologise for this or furnish me with your address so we can settle this. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll let you choose: How do you want to die (note, it's about the specific way of death, not general choices. The options "painfully" and "over the course of months" are mandatory.)


KaeYoss wrote:
MicMan wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
...And I know a lot of people whose English is either non-existent or not good enough to understand you.
Especially since you come from a region in germany that's almost french :)
You can do two things here: Either apologise for this or furnish me with your address so we can settle this. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll let you choose: How do you want to die (note, it's about the specific way of death, not general choices. The options "painfully" and "over the course of months" are mandatory.)

I see you are too cowardly to do either. I guess I have to obliterate the whole world to make sure I get to you, then. I'll commence my preparations, which should come to fruition some time next year. 2012 should be a good year for this, anyway.

Shadow Lodge

KaeYoss wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
MicMan wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
...And I know a lot of people whose English is either non-existent or not good enough to understand you.
Especially since you come from a region in germany that's almost french :)
You can do two things here: Either apologise for this or furnish me with your address so we can settle this. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll let you choose: How do you want to die (note, it's about the specific way of death, not general choices. The options "painfully" and "over the course of months" are mandatory.)
I see you are too cowardly to do either. I guess I have to obliterate the whole world to make sure I get to you, then. I'll commence my preparations, which should come to fruition some time next year. 2012 should be a good year for this, anyway.

Might I suggest an Iludium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator?! :D

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