So, we go into a fight with a Wizard that promptly puts up mirror image. After flailing away a couple of images our Paladin notes that it would be more effective to close his eyes and swing blindly at the wizard since blind creatures are not effected by mirror image and the miss chance is less.
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So, we go into a fight with a Wizard that promptly puts up mirror image. After flailing away a couple of images our Paladin notes that it would be more effective to close his eyes and swing blindly at the wizard since blind creatures are not effected by mirror image and the miss chance is less.
For the first few rounds, sure. But every Mirror Image you hit ups your chances in the future. The 50% miss chance will never change.
Still, if there are a whole lot of Mirror Images, you're under serious time pressure, or you have Blind Fight, it's not a bad idea.
True, but that's a FANTASTIC amount of metagaming. Now, maybe if your Paladin has a really high Int or some such thing, but as soon as you start talking miss chance percentages and feeling better off closing your eyes....that's metagame creeping in.
I know an argument can be made that "oh but my character would realize this!" but the truth is that's always a retroactive argument people make after they look at the percentages IRL.
Unless I'm trained in Blind-fighting, I find it hard to believe that my solution as a warrior would be to close my eyes so I can hit better.
So, we go into a fight with a Wizard that promptly puts up mirror image. After flailing away a couple of images our Paladin notes that it would be more effective to close his eyes and swing blindly at the wizard since blind creatures are not effected by mirror image and the miss chance is less.
As written this is a valid tactic yes, but I do hope the devs realize that this will effectively circumvent the entire purpose of this spell so they should errata it.
In my Campaigns the images fool all the senses, not just sight so closing your eyes just won't work.
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True, but that's a FANTASTIC amount of metagaming. Now, maybe if your Paladin has a really high Int or some such thing, but as soon as you start talking miss chance percentages and feeling better off closing your eyes....that's metagame creeping in.
I know an argument can be made that "oh but my character would realize this!" but the truth is that's always a retroactive argument people make after they look at the percentages IRL.
Unless I'm trained in Blind-fighting, I find it hard to believe that my solution as a warrior would be to close my eyes so I can hit better.
Definite point. If they've fought people using Mirror Image a lot before or otherwise know a great deal about it, they can probably figure this out, but barring something like that they likely wouldn't have the time to analyze it like that in an actual fight.
it would be more effective to close his eyes and swing blindly at the wizard since blind creatures are not effected by mirror image and the miss chance is less.
That's been my answer to mirror image for years; most of my melee characters end up picking Blind Fight sooner or later. It's also useful against invisble spellcasters.
You could also make the argument that opening and closing your eyes quickly is not enough to "be blind enough to ignore the illusion." You have to have them closed long enough to actually be blind fighting.
So if a player tried this in my game I would make him go into the other room. When his turn comes and he has had his eyes closed for a round he/she can declare what square they are attempting to attack. They could also make a perception check to maybe get a clue if the "invisible" person has moved or not. Finally, they would be flat footed and take at the penalties to being attacked by an invisible target since they cannot see them anyway.
Overall, unless you have training like the martial artists in movies there would be a lot of penalties to the PLAYER as his character is blind with his eyes closed. The character cannot see, so why should the player get to see the map and know what is going on in combat.
Now in normal play when a character is actually blinded I would not make them leave the room as that is adding insult to injury in some cases... but when it is their choice... :)
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All my NPC fighters do this when running up to the PC spellcaster. They do not run towards the wizard with their eyes closed, they avert their gaze from the actual target or close their eyes when determining their true target. If you wanted to punch me on the nose, but there’s eight of me running around you and only one of the targets is making noise, wouldn’t you do the same? It's not metagaming at all.
just ask the party mage to fire off a magic missile, each missile targeting a different image. *pop*pop*pop* no more images.
just ask the party mage to fire off a magic missile, each missile targeting a different image. *pop*pop*pop* no more images.
You can no more target mirror images with an attack or spell (except dispel) than you can target mage armor with an attack or spell (except dispel).
That's holdover thinking from D&D v3.5. Read Pathfinder's mirror image spell. You can only ever target the caster.
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Cleave / great cleave are also excellent answers to mirror image, as their static AC's are quite low,,, wait, scratch that. Interesting, I just read closely the Pathfinder mirror image and cracking an image requires hitting the actual mage's AC (or within 5).
This makes the above more difficult in most cases (used to just be 10 + dex modifier), but I would still accept that a fighter with great cleave that kept beating your AC could eventually carve through up to 8 images and hammer you, likely with a delighted howl of laughter at how well his attack panned out!
Does this mean the spell does nothing? ;)
You can only ever target the caster.
Judging by the smiley, I'm going to assume you were kidding, but just in case, I'm going to give you a serious answer. If nothing else, it will help those who are actually thinking along those lines.
The spell protects the caster just fine. You target the caster (or someone else, but NOT the images). If you decide to target the caster you choose what you are targeting him with: a weapon, a maneuver, a spell, or a special ability. If it is one of the first two, and you hit, roll to see if you hit the caster or an image. If you miss the attack, you may still destroy an image with a little luck. If it is one of the second two, it either functions as an attack (if it has an attack roll involved) or works normally against the caster (if it is a non-attack target effect like charm person or an area effect such as fireball).
There is no option to deliberately target the mirror images themselves, unless you are using something that can specifically target spell effects such as dispel magic.
Definite point. If they've fought people using Mirror Image a lot before or otherwise know a great deal about it, they can probably figure this out, but barring something like that they likely wouldn't have the time to analyze it like that in an actual fight.True, but that's a FANTASTIC amount of metagaming. Now, maybe if your Paladin has a really high Int or some such thing, but as soon as you start talking miss chance percentages and feeling better off closing your eyes....that's metagame creeping in.
I know an argument can be made that "oh but my character would realize this!" but the truth is that's always a retroactive argument people make after they look at the percentages IRL.
Unless I'm trained in Blind-fighting, I find it hard to believe that my solution as a warrior would be to close my eyes so I can hit better.
Nonsense. Paladins have spellcraft as a class skill. He has a 100% valid way of recognizing this spell and thus the means to defeat it.
As for the rest of you rules-lawyering for the perpetuation of "caster edition": This is a lv2 spell. It is not meant to make you immune to combat. It's already a "must have" bordering on "broken", especially after the magic missile negation tactic was removed. There is no need to make it better. In fact, with all the amazing improvements in PF (image AC=Yours-5 being the most amazing one) I think it should be a lv4 spell.
So, we go into a fight with a Wizard that promptly puts up mirror image. After flailing away a couple of images our Paladin notes that it would be more effective to close his eyes and swing blindly at the wizard since blind creatures are not effected by mirror image and the miss chance is less.As written this is a valid tactic yes, but I do hope the devs realize that this will effectively circumvent the entire purpose of this spell so they should errata it.
In my Campaigns the images fool all the senses, not just sight so closing your eyes just won't work.
Yes, because effectively upgrading a lv2 spell to a lv3 spell (displacement) is a bad thing?
Well, good to know, so I won't waste feats on blind-fight then. Instead I should go for Cosmopolitan or Additional Traits, so I can get UMD and a wand of Mirror Image.
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Does this mean the spell does nothing? ;)
You can only ever target the caster.Judging by the smiley, I'm going to assume you were kidding, but just in case, I'm going to give you a serious answer. If nothing else, it will help those who are actually thinking along those lines.
The spell protects the caster just fine. You target the caster (or someone else, but NOT the images). If you decide to target the caster you choose what you are targeting him with: a weapon, a maneuver, a spell, or a special ability. If it is one of the first two, and you hit, roll to see if you hit the caster or an image. If you miss the attack, you may still destroy an image with a little luck. If it is one of the second two, it either functions as an attack (if it has an attack roll involved) or works normally against the caster (if it is a non-attack target effect like charm person or an area effect such as fireball).
There is no option to deliberately target the mirror images themselves, unless you are using something that can specifically target spell effects such as dispel magic.
As you pointed out Magic Missile beat mirror image as they don't require a attack roll.
Good for a caster with the shield spell up, bad for all other spellcasters capable of casting mirror image but not shield.
Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.
Big change from the 3.5
So, we go into a fight with a Wizard that promptly puts up mirror image. After flailing away a couple of images our Paladin notes that it would be more effective to close his eyes and swing blindly at the wizard since blind creatures are not effected by mirror image and the miss chance is less.
It is a bit messy on the effect of the failed attacks on the images (you miss the guy but there is still a chance of hitting the image?) but a valid solution.
It is not metagaming, the paladin realized his sight was unreliable and tried to use his other senses.The piece about "he should have closed his eyes well before he started to try to attack" is one bad piece of gamemastering. The Blind fight feat allow the owner to reroll the miss chance against concealment even if he has his eyes open. So there is no time requirement to active the feat.
A guy without the feat is operating in a way very similar to someone trying to avoid a gaze attack. He would concentrate on sound and even to the body heat of the target if appropriate (no specific rule for that but a lich with a cold touch attack would be easier to find that a zombie whose flesh is at room temperature). He need to close his eyes to get shut out conflicting signals, so giving total cover to everyone in the fight, but that don't mean he will be blind for the full combat round. Opening and closing the eyes is a free action.
You could validly argue that the the guy closing his eyes (without the feat) is lowering his guard, so he will be a valid target for an attack of opportunity, but not that this tactic will not work because fighting blindly require time to become active.
The eye closure is very Insightful Warrior, and not metagaming at all.
Just make sure no rogues are around, or the wizard exploits this by preparing to cast a spell at you as soon as you get some shut-eye. Try to dodge rays and other stuff if you can't see it!
The eye closure is very Insightful Warrior, and not metagaming at all.
Just make sure no rogues are around, or the wizard exploits this by preparing to cast a spell at you as soon as you get some shut-eye. Try to dodge rays and other stuff if you can't see it!
Excellent :D
Wait until angry warrior closes his eyes, fire off readied shocking grasp, no need to cast defensively as he doesn't threaten when blind. Double the fun if you have intensified spell.
Guess the "meta-gamer" is in for a shock :P
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The eye closure is very Insightful Warrior, and not metagaming at all.
Just make sure no rogues are around, or the wizard exploits this by preparing to cast a spell at you as soon as you get some shut-eye. Try to dodge rays and other stuff if you can't see it!
Excellent :D
Wait until angry warrior closes his eyes, fire off readied shocking grasp, no need to cast defensively as he doesn't threaten when blind. Double the fun if you have intensified spell.
Guess the "meta-gamer" is in for a shock :P
Unless he has the blind-fight feat and keep is full AC.
I think it's actually a valid tactic. Like most tactical maneuvers, however, it carries with it significant disadvantages - namely, if the character doesn't have Blind-Fight, he's very vulnerable to any other attacks. Even with Blind-Fight, it gives the wizard a chance to move into a more advantageous position while the group has their eyes shut.
So, we go into a fight with a Wizard that promptly puts up mirror image. After flailing away a couple of images our Paladin notes that it would be more effective to close his eyes and swing blindly at the wizard since blind creatures are not effected by mirror image and the miss chance is less.
Additional Information Relating to this encounter:
The party had just finished a combat when our thief was hit by a magic missile from down a dark corridor - no one in the party saw the source. The thief perceived the direction, turned quickly but only saw a small cat disappear around the corner. As a low level party with no previous experience with wizards (failed all knowledge rolls), we were certain the cat was a magic using creature that represented a high threat to us - and he was sneaky.
The following scenario was a usual one-more room decision, in other words the party sorcerer was completely out of spells, the cleric was very short on spells - we would rely mostly on melee and what wands/scrolls could provide.
I think our Paladin, though noting the blind tactic was more effective against mirror image played it correctly. As a first time encounter with the spell and a wizard, he flailed away at images - rest assured he may choose a different option next time having gained that experience.
I could see using the tactic if the party sorcerer routinely used mirror image - the party would have intimate knowledge of the spell but he does not currently have it.
Cheers!
The real story here....was after the death of the Wizard - our party thief got into a six round fight with the Wizard's familiar while the rest of the party stood around laughing.
We vowed to "mount" the head of her single combat kill and present it to her as a wall mount trophy just as soon as we get a chance.
The spell says-
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled.
The way we rule it, once you have seen it, its too late to close your eyes, you saw the images, you don't know which one is the caster, you close your eyes all you do is add a 50% miss chance on top of having to clear the images. Now, if you never saw them, the room is dark and you don't have dark vision for example, then you only get the miss chance.
The spell doesn't work that way, it's constantly moving figments that surround the caster. When you are attacking while blinded or in total darkness the illusory effect doesn't impact you. You have a miss % based upon total concealment but no chance of hitting a mirror image.
In some cases this is a better deal than popping images separately especially if blindfight, improved blind-fight and greater blind-fight are factored in.
Basically if someone wants to be effectively blind for a full round (no closing eyes just for the attack- some simultaneous action is expected) with all the consequences of that action (everyone has total concealment from the blinded character, penalties to AC and skill checks, etc) in order to bypass the effect of mirror image then I let them.
Splash weapons are a good countermeasure against mirror image. Even though you could hit an image it will still impact against all targets in within 5' of the splash point.
I say, let them close their eyes. Suddenly, the Wizards 2nd level spell, Mirror Image, became a 3rd level spell, Displacement, plus the Paladin also suffers all the penalties of being blind.
Just ready an action to move out of the way, and watch the Paladin hit empty air.
I say, let them close their eyes. Suddenly, the Wizards 2nd level spell, Mirror Image, became a 3rd level spell, Displacement, plus the Paladin also suffers all the penalties of being blind.
Just ready an action to move out of the way, and watch the Paladin hit empty air.
I would think the Paladin would only close his eyes when he attacks. After that, he would open them, so he would not suffer the penalties of being blind (aside from the 50% miss chance when he attacks the wizard).
The way we rule it, once you have seen it, its too late to close your eyes, you saw the images, you don't know which one is the caster, you close your eyes all you do is add a 50% miss chance on top of having to clear the images. Now, if you never saw them, the room is dark and you don't have dark vision for example, then you only get the miss chance.
Ouch.
Let me point out the 230+ post thread over here which has so far failed to resolve this issue.
Some people say that once you see the spell, it doesn't matter whether or not you still can.
Some people say that with your eyes closed, you ignore the images, and only have the 50% miss chance for attacking something with total concealment.
Within the latter group, some people say that you can close your eyes, attack, and then open them all in the same turn. Some people say that you have to choose whether your eyes are open or closed at the start of your turn and it stays that way until your next turn.
No consensus has emerged.
I know an argument can be made that "oh but my character would realize this!" but the truth is that's always a retroactive argument people make after they look at the percentages IRL.
Percentages are percentages in game or out. You can't be tricked by images if you can't see the images. And if there are 8, you obviously only have a 1 in 8 chance of hitting the target. However if you can't see at all, there are two outcomes - you hit the target or you don't.
In my Campaigns the images fool all the senses, not just sight so closing your eyes just won't work.
What sense is Mirror Image fooling for some one closing their eyes and swinging into the square with the target? The sense of DM fiat?
I would think the Paladin would only close his eyes when he attacks. After that, he would open them, so he would not suffer the penalties of being blind (aside from the 50% miss chance when he attacks the wizard).I say, let them close their eyes. Suddenly, the Wizards 2nd level spell, Mirror Image, became a 3rd level spell, Displacement, plus the Paladin also suffers all the penalties of being blind.
Just ready an action to move out of the way, and watch the Paladin hit empty air.
Many GMs will say that if your eyes are closed for your full attack, they're closed until the start of your next turn. You might announce your actions and make your rolls one player at a time, but the actions themselves do take place all at once.
Plus, the ready action means that it happens as soon as the eyes are closed, but before the attacks start.
I would think the Paladin would only close his eyes when he attacks. After that, he would open them, so he would not suffer the penalties of being blind (aside from the 50% miss chance when he attacks the wizard).I say, let them close their eyes. Suddenly, the Wizards 2nd level spell, Mirror Image, became a 3rd level spell, Displacement, plus the Paladin also suffers all the penalties of being blind.
Just ready an action to move out of the way, and watch the Paladin hit empty air.
That's fine, he's still blind while he's attacking, that's when all the readied actions go off. Even if you don't suffer the penalties on your turn, it's not a very good tactic. If you don't have Blind Fight, it's a horrible tactic.