| 8 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This came up in another thread and I've moved it here so as to stop the thread jack there. I've attempted to paraphrase the argument for the one side, and I've quoted myself directly. (the other party had several posts about it and is free to come and correct me if I mis-paraphrased him. If I have missed something it was through mistake not intent. I'm honestly curious how the community views this spell interacting with the game world)
Mind Blank
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 24 hours
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible). This spell also grants a +8 resistance bonus on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
The two arguments are as follows:
Version 1
1) Any divination spell that requires your name to be asked, or that requires your name in the answer, fails. Any Divination with you as the specific target fails. Any divination that has you in its area of effect works normally but "ignores you" and does not reveal your location or aura or whatever.
or
Version 2
Mind Blank gives some broad statements and then breaks down into specifics. It states two specific ways that it protects the person effected:
1) If they are in the area of a Scrying or a similar spell then the spell works normally but the MB'd creature isn't shown. (see invis, arcane eye, and so on)
2) Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
There is a third category of Divination spells however that isn't covered by Mind Blank- and those are spells that communicate *about* the MB'd individual without targeting him in any way. Contact Other Plane, Commune, potentially Telepathic Bond and any other such spell falls into this group.
Assume
Bob the Mind Blanked
and
Jim the Hunter.
If Jim is trying to find Bob- can Jim use Commune or Contact Other Plane to find Bob? can he "find him" without naming him?
if Bob killed X then can Jim cast divination spells to the effect of
"what happened to X
"who killed X"
"where is the killer of X".
Assuming the answer of all those questions is "Bob" are they valid questions?
If they are valid questions then what happens if Jim and John are joined by Telepathic Bond (which is a Divination spell), can they discuss Bob the Mind Blanked? can Jim ask John if he sees Bob? Can John answer yes? What if Jim asks John if he sees someone in a black tabard and the answer is Yes: because Bob the MB is there and is wearing a black tabard?
It seems like a silly question but if Mind Blank prevents you from using Contact Other Plane to ask about the murderer then it also stops Telepathic Bond from working. They both work on the same concept: you are using a Divination to ask someone else a question about something they know: and that "thing they know" happens to be someone under the effect of Mind Blank.
"Version 1" seems overly broad to me. It seems to write in a "you are erased from the universe while this spell is in effect" clause that I do not think is in the spell, and is just flat out too powerful. it also doesn't make sense when applied to some of the spells that it will somehow block if "version 1" is the "correct way".
Version "2" seems alot more limited but, not unreasonable limits. You still can't see invs, true seeing, scry, locate creature, or whatever on the person in question. Its still a *huge* buff to the caster but it doesn't erase him from the memory of anyone you happen to use a spell to talk to.'
Thoughts?
-S
Developer
|
Ah, the Efreeti serial killer plot. Good times. Glad I stayed out of that one.
Divination spells are always adjudicated by the GM, so she gets to tell you how this works. That being said, the text here:
Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target.
Is pretty clear to me. Information about the subject of MB is not available. You can find out where the efreeti died, when he died, what means of murder was used, but you could not learn the name of the killer. You could not get so much as his favorite color. Anything about the target is unavailable.
Yes, foiling commune seems like foiling gods, but they've got their own concerns. The direct intervention of a deity - and we're not talking mortal magic like miracle but a god stepping up to find information directly, hands on... that might do the job. Nothing else will. Keep in mind commune isn't perfect. Your god may not care about what you're asking. She may not think you need to know.
There are a dozen reasons why a god could care less that a psychopathic wizard is killing evil fire jinn. There are a dozen more why a god might not feel you need to know.
Mind blank is powerful. By the time someone can cast it, they're up there in power. Really up there. Efreeti Sherlock Holmes is SOL against this guy.
|
Developer
|
Version 1" seems overly broad to me. It seems to write in a "you are erased from the universe while this spell is in effect" clause that I do not think is in the spell, and is just flat out too powerful. it also doesn't make sense when applied to some of the spells that it will somehow block if "version 1" is the "correct way
It sounds really powerful, right. It is. Welcome to the high level caster, the GM headache. This is why I'm glad society play ends at 12. 8th level spells are when the wonky really starts.
This spell is designed to foil these things, and it's 8th level, of course it works against a 5th level spell. Hell, you can treat it as creating static that prevents your mortal mind from receiving the perfectly accurate information your deity provides if the sanctity of commune's concept is really truly important to you.
9th level spells are called out as failing. Why would a 5th level spell work? You're letting the flavor draw you away from the mechanics.
Again, a GM can handle this however she wants, but lower Mind Blank's power at your own risk, lest the party simply teleport into every stronghold anytime a big bad rears his ugly head.
Edit* I'm not saying every big bad should be mind blanked. Let the diviner be awesome every now and then, but don't let it work everytime. Mind Blank is a great GM tool. Just don't go crazy and leave your diviner in tears of rage.
It wouldn't stop telepathic bond, because the spell itself isn't granting information about the target. It is simply facilitating a transfer of information.
You can still talk to someone and speak to them about what happened and get info that way. Telepathic Bond's effect is to modify how that communication occurs, it's not divining information about someone.
To put this in modern terms: Mind Blank is stopping someone from using 411 to get info on him, but doesn't prevent using the phone to call someone who already knows info.
|
Developer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It wouldn't stop telepathic bond, because the spell itself isn't granting information about the target. It is simply facilitating a transfer of information.
You can still talk to someone and speak to them about what happened and get info that way. Telepathic Bond's effect is to modify how that communication occurs, it's not divining information about someone.
To put this in modern terms: Mind Blank is stopping someone from using 411 to get info on him, but doesn't prevent using the phone to call someone who already knows info.
Absolutely right. Any witnesses still know what they saw. The problem with the situation in the original thread was that the mind blanked character took precautions to be away from everyone and everything.
Still, people could notice the increase in wealth or the like from a sudden wish influx. Mind Blank isn't super invisibility, and if the caster slips up and gets noticed, info can be found.
Spells don't stop good old fashioned legwork... well except the ones that kill the detective. Those might stop good old fashioned legwork,
I'm also not so certain it would prevent Contact Other Plane from working any better than it would prevent your ability to ask Bob's wife questions about Bob.
You aren't magically getting info from nowhere. You are magically communicating with an outsider and asking questions of them.
|
Developer
|
I'm also not so certain it would prevent Contact Other Plane from working any better than it would prevent your ability to ask Bob's wife questions about Bob.
You aren't magically getting info from nowhere. You are magically communicating with an outsider and asking questions of them.
Again, letting fluff trump rules. You want to do this as a GM, that's your prerogative, moreso with divinations than anywhere else.
The RAW is clear and the text is clear, though. The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic. See invisibility is called out as not working. Commune is definitely a no go. Maybe it interrupts your question, or interrupts the answer. The fluff is less important, you can come up with that on your own. The rule is clear. No info.
spells that gather information
Any spell that gathers information about the target even if wish or miracle are used will fail to gather information.
I'm also not so certain it would prevent Contact Other Plane from working any better than it would prevent your ability to ask Bob's wife questions about Bob.
You aren't magically getting info from nowhere. You are magically communicating with an outsider and asking questions of them.
Again, letting fluff trump rules. You want to do this as a GM, that's your prerogative, moreso with divinations than anywhere else.
The RAW is clear and the text is clear, though. The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic. See invisibility is called out as not working. Commune is definitely a no go. Maybe it interrupts your question, or interrupts the answer. The fluff is less important, you can come up with that on your own. The rule is clear. No info.
I'm still ambivalent. You aren't getting info directly about the creature like you would with other divination spells. You are asking another creature what it knows about Bob. The fact that you used magic to contact said creature shouldn't matter in this case.
Mind Blank won't stop me from asking Bob's wife where he is at, nor will it prevent her from answering should she decide to tell me. I'm merely using the same logic.
|
Developer
|
Mind Blank won't stop me from asking Bob's wife where he is at, nor will it prevent her from answering should she decide to tell me. I'm merely using the same logic.
It will if you somehow ask her via a divination spell. You've gotta do it in person. The spell stops divination spells from gathering info. That is abundantly clear. All divination spells. All info about the target they might gather. Doesn't matter if you ask his wife via a spell or Desna.
If you've got a question, you're going to have to ask it in person or through a different school
I am one of the posters in the other thread. My use of the spell is as follows, as an example.
Did a human kill/kidnap the Efreet
Did a dragon kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard.-->I am asking was any wizard involved
Was it a sorcerer.--
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this-->Very general statement that eliminates suspects
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.
|
Developer
|
I am one of the posters in the other thread. My use of the spell is as follows, as an example.
Did a human kill/kidnap the Efreet
Did a dragon kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard.-->I am asking was any wizard involved
Was it a sorcerer.--
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this-->Very general statement that eliminates suspects
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.
Well... I suppose nothing in the text prevents you from playing 20 questions, and as I recall the spell actually gives you 20 questions at 20th level.
Of course each question runs the risk of lack of knowledge, but in principle this seems to avoid the protections provided by the mind blank - erasing information about anyone the caster interacted with ever... a bit much, even for the 8th level spell. Some of the above questions still could not work. It's clever, and I respect clever. Still... no information about the target can be gained. That's set in stone.
You'd never be able to get a name, that much is obvious. Class, race, sex/gender, appearance, favorite Taldan opera... all still not allowed by the spell's text.
You could get the means of murder, spell or weapon, and which spell or weapon. You could get the location of the murder (as it is not necessarily tied to that of the caster). You could get the time of death. Method of disposing the body. Location of the body... or largest portion thereof. You could ask anything about the act, location, or time, but asking about the killer would be gathering info on the caster with a divination spell.
Did x race do it results in "unclear" (which is a legit answer by the spell). Recall, even without Mind Blank the spell has its limits.
Hell, if you're contacting Nethys (not that you would) he might deliberately withhold info, as someone using magic to murder efreet is awesome by his book. He might want the wizard to keep on trucking.
The location could be very useful, as that could lead to further clues. You might not be able to divine anything about the caster via spells, but a good old fashioned stake out might work... though a caster teleporting in and out makes that harder.
Really this spell is a big screw you to diviners. Working around it is possible, but very hard.
Legend lore might show the death, but leave the caster shrouded in shadow... an indistinct murderous blob. Speak with dead could work. It's necromancy, and only divination, wish and miracle are specifically called out. Of course speak with dead has its own problems, as the caster spoke of deliberately misleading the efreeti as to his appearance.
Again, recall that the poster was using the thought experiment to demonstrate that wish access from efreet requires strict GM adjudication, or game breaking possibilities come into play. The GM always has the "rocks fall" option, but stopping abuse before it gets to that point is better than efreet death squads after.
Mind Blank murder spree could work for awhile, and you would indeed be safe from any divination effect that tried to learn about you. That doesn't mean a player should do it any more than she should attack another PC, even if she's evil. Evil can work with people, sociopaths can't. We play characters that play well in the game, so this situation shouldn't arise, despite its being possible.
I am one of the posters in the other thread. My use of the spell is as follows, as an example.
Did a human kill/kidnap the Efreet
Did a dragon kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard.-->I am asking was any wizard involved
Was it a sorcerer.--
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this-->Very general statement that eliminates suspects
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.Well... I suppose nothing in the text prevents you from playing 20 questions, and as I recall the spell actually gives you 20 questions at 20th level.
Of course each question runs the risk of lack of knowledge, but in principle this seems to avoid the protections provided by the mind blank - erasing information about anyone the caster interacted with ever... a bit much, even for the 8th level spell. Some of the above questions still could not work. It's clever, and I respect clever. Still... no information about the target can be gained. That's set in stone.
You'd never be able to get a name, that much is obvious. Class, race, sex/gender, appearance, favorite Taldan opera... all still not allowed by the spell's text.
You could get the means of murder, spell or weapon, and which spell or weapon. You could get the location of the murder (as it is not necessarily tied to that of the caster). You could get the time of death. Method of disposing the body. Location of the body... or largest portion thereof. You could ask anything about the act, location, or time, but asking about the killer would be gathering info on the caster with a divination spell.
Did x race do it results in "unclear" (which is a legit answer by the spell). Recall, even without Mind Blank the spell has its limits.Hell, if you're contacting Nethys (not that you would) he might deliberately withhold info, as someone using magic to murder efreet is awesome by his book. He might want the wizard to keep on trucking.
The location could be very useful, as that could lead to further...
Here is the thing. I can not gain direct knowledge, but I can use the process of elimination. There are not a lot of high level casters in most game worlds. Say there are 10 capable of this tactics, and 3 are human, and I find out that the person is human. I now only have to look at 3 people. I can also have other casters do the same spell with the same question to cross reference the information.
Mundane research can probably knock 2 of the 3 out of the suspect list.
If not back to commune.
|
Developer
|
Here is the thing. I can not gain direct knowledge, but I can use the process of elimination. There are not a lot of high level casters in most game worlds. Say there are 10 capable of this tactics, and 3 are human, and I find out that the person is human. I now only have to look at 3 people.
Here's the rub: I don't think you could find out he's human, or dragon or anything. Any question of "was the efreet killed by [X]" or "did an [X] kidnap the efreet" or anything like that results in unclear. You've moved from gathering solely on the act and victim to the caster of mind blank. You cannot get info on what he is and what he is not.
Here is the thing. I can not gain direct knowledge, but I can use the process of elimination. There are not a lot of high level casters in most game worlds. Say there are 10 capable of this tactics, and 3 are human, and I find out that the person is human. I now only have to look at 3 people.Here's the rub: I don't think you could find out he's human, or dragon or anything. Any question of "was the efreet killed by [X]" or "did an [X] kidnap the efreet" or anything like that results in unclear. You've moved from gathering solely on the act and victim to the caster of mind blank. You cannot get info on what he is and what he is not.
Did the Effreet die by a dragon/human/etc make the subject(target) still the Effreet since I am not asking about the suspect, but the victim.
Finding out the correct way to word it is only a matter of changing the way the sentence is worded.
I did not know sending crossed planar barriers. I just looked it up. The issue now is how to determine whether or not your deity gives you an answer. I guess you can state how the wishes can be bad for the deity. Other than that they may not get involved.
edit: If you use telepathic bond to only ask the subject questions about itself such as where it is, you can also play 20 questions that way.
Example: Are you with a dragon right now?
|
Developer
|
A new curveball: Why are these spells divination spells in the first place? Scrying, OK. Detect Magic, OK. True Seeing, fine. But these three spells have far more in common with Sending, which is Evocation. Its long distance communication. Sending on your deity works (theoretically), but when you try the same with Commune or CoP, it fails? Talking to your buddy with Sending works, but via Telepathic Bond it doesn't?
Telepathic Bond is one thing. Sending is very different than Commune, though. It's a different form of communication. Good like getting a reply to sending from a deity, a waste of their time. If they want to communicate with you directly, they'll let you know.
Commune and Divination are not direct audiences. You've not traveled anywhere. You use a divine connection to call up information in the form of yes/no questions. You're not even guaranteed to be talking to your deity, you might just have an agent speaking to you... and I'm not sure it can really be considered speaking.
I see overlap with sending, but that doesn't mean the method of communication is the same. Maybe the schools transfer information in fundamentally different ways. Maybe there's something about calling up information from these sources that requires more finesse than simple asking, hence the placement in divination. This is a limited conversation, too, entirely focused on learning the answers to questions. The spell is not merely sending a message, like sending, but specifically calling for otherworldly aid in the gaining of information. Information gathering is the meat and potatoes of divination. Perhaps these methods of contact just flow more easily with divination techniques, as opposed to evocation. Perhaps you can make up your own fluff to explain this. Fluff. Story. Easy to deal with.
Also, I think something we're forgetting is the general reluctance of these beings to simply do everything for us. Also, they might just not know. Mind Blank is powerful stuff, and unless you're talking to Ralph, the god of knowing what Bob is up to, they might not be paying any attention to Bob. Orcus is a little more intimidating at the moment.
Don't let the fluff detract from the rules. You want to house rule these spells outsider divination, and take yet more from poor diviners, that's your prerogative, but given that divination is about learning things, and that's what these spells do, they fit the school. Perhaps Mind Blank just interrupts the communication, so there's only static when a question regarding the caster is asked. A bad cell connection kind of thing.
If you have the audacity to gate to your deity, and she lets the gate open, you can ask her and avoid these bad reception issues. Of course if you have the audacity to gate to your deity you may have bad reception issues of an entirely different magnitude.
|
Developer
|
Did the Effreet die by a dragon/human/etc make the subject(target) still the Effreet since I am not asking about the suspect, but the victim.
Finding out the correct way to word it is only a matter of changing the way the sentence is worded.
This is not true. I'm going to take it back to the original analogy, as has been requested. We'll add Maggie the Murdered, because it's more fun than X.
If Jim asks "did a human kill Maggie?" Jim is asking about the killer. The phrasing is irrelevant. Yes, you learn something regarding Maggie, and that something is about Bob, her killer. You cannot learn information about Bob from a divination spell.
Bob's race is about Bob. Bob's class is about Bob. Bob's favorite color is about Bob. Any question that would reveal any of this information fails. The spell does not stop you from asking a question about Bob, it actually specifically stops you from gaining information about Bob. Rewording helps you not.
|
Developer
|
I did not know sending crossed planar barriers. I just looked it up. The issue now is how to determine whether or not your deity gives you an answer. I guess you can state how the wishes can be bad for the deity. Other than that they may not get involved.
edit: If you use telepathic bond to only ask the subject questions about itself such as where it is, you can also play 20 questions that way.
Example: Are you with a dragon right now?
Well, telepathic bond is the biggest outlier here. Given it's closeness to sending, I might be willing to houserule it evocation... but this isn't about house rules. The RAW is clear. Even telepathic bond results in garbled cellphone-ish static when Maggie tries to give Jim any info about Bob. She can talk about the drapes, or the weather, or the local time. She can't talk about Bob.
But... "are you with a dragon"... hmmmm. I'd allow it. Asked directly to Maggie the question isn't about Bob. "Who are you with" would return garbled nonsense. "Are you with Aunt Sally" would not. This could work with commune, too. The "was she near a..." question would work for eliminating creatures.
Of course once you asked "was Maggie near a human" the answer would automatically come up "unclear," as you would be learning something about Bob.
A new curveball: Why are these spells divination spells in the first place? Scrying, OK. Detect Magic, OK. True Seeing, fine. But these three spells have far more in common with Sending, which is Evocation. Its long distance communication. Sending on your deity works (theoretically), but when you try the same with Commune or CoP, it fails? Talking to your buddy with Sending works, but via Telepathic Bond it doesn't?Telepathic Bond is one thing. Sending is very different than Commune, though. It's a different form of communication. Good like getting a reply to sending from a deity, a waste of their time. If they want to communicate with you directly, they'll let you know.
Commune and Divination are not direct audiences. You've not traveled anywhere. You use a divine connection to call up information in the form of yes/no questions. You're not even guaranteed to be talking to your deity, you might just have an agent speaking to you... and I'm not sure it can really be considered speaking.
I see overlap with sending, but that doesn't mean the method of communication is the same. Maybe the schools transfer information in fundamentally different ways. Maybe there's something about calling up information from these sources that requires more finesse than simple asking, hence the placement in divination. This is a limited conversation, too, entirely focused on learning the answers to questions. The spell is not merely sending a message, like sending, but specifically calling for otherworldly aid in the gaining of information. Information gathering is the meat and potatoes of divination. Perhaps these methods of contact just flow more easily with divination techniques, as opposed to evocation. Perhaps you can make up your own fluff to explain this. Fluff. Story. Easy to deal with.
Also, I think something we're forgetting is the general reluctance of these beings to simply do everything for us. Also, they might just not know. Mind Blank is powerful stuff, and...
Strangely enough I do view mindblank as a form of blocking reception. If the deity got the message I doubt any mortal spell could prevent him from communicating if it wanted to. I do think mind blank is too good at blocking divination spells, but it is what it is.
I did not know sending crossed planar barriers. I just looked it up. The issue now is how to determine whether or not your deity gives you an answer. I guess you can state how the wishes can be bad for the deity. Other than that they may not get involved.
edit: If you use telepathic bond to only ask the subject questions about itself such as where it is, you can also play 20 questions that way.
Example: Are you with a dragon right now?Well, telepathic bond is the biggest outlier here. Given it's closeness to sending, I might be willing to houserule it evocation... but this isn't about house rules. The RAW is clear. Even telepathic bond results in garbled cellphone-ish static when Maggie tries to give Jim any info about Bob. She can talk about the drapes, or the weather, or the local time. She can't talk about Bob.
But... "are you with a dragon"... hmmmm. I'd allow it. Asked directly to Maggie the question isn't about Bob. "Who are you with" would return garbled nonsense. "Are you with Aunt Sally" would not. This could work with commune, too. The "was she near a..." question would work for eliminating creatures.
Of course once you asked "was Maggie near a human" the answer would automatically come up "unclear," as you would be learning something about Bob.
I agree "that who are you with", or "are you with BoB" is to direct.
I got another idea though.
What if the three suspects are Larry, Bob(mind blanked), and Ed.
I think asking for all 3 names might work. For the sake of simplicity we will say the names stand in for identify confirmation questions.
Now if you get a yes or no on Larry and Ed, but Bob gets you static then you have a winner, or a loser from Bob's point of view.
Yes, taking even MORE from divination would be a bad move on principle. However, I can see where one would argue why, by fluff, these spells should work, or shouldn't be divination.
In my eyes thats really all this argument is about. Fluff versus RAW. RAW, mind blank protects. Its just that good.
From a DM's perspective I'm actually leaning to leave Mind Blank as it is, simply so I can actually have a BBEG do stuff in secret still.
As for deities helping out merrily, I repeat what I said in the other thread, just for fluff:
If I am Talos the Destroyer, God of Storms, and you DARE to bother me about the stinking underwear of some upstart wizard, I am so going to flay you alive.
If I can prove your destruction is being help back would Talos help? That is why I said earlier that having a reason for a deity to interfere before you use sending is a good idea.
Or your list of suspects was incomplete from the beginning, and Bob just happens to be Mind Blanked.
If I ask if 15 people are capable of doing activity X through my patented yes/no game, and knocking it down to 3 humans then it would work. The whole point of the yes/no game is to get an exact number of suspects from a certain race at least.
You visit the ones that you can or spy one them if you don't think they will cooperate. Getting an exact number is not hard since it is very general question. It is like asking how many people in the world are capable of dunking an 11 foot basketball, but with a specific number.You can also rattle off a list of names of people that you know can do X, and ask is the list complete.
|
I'm also not so certain it would prevent Contact Other Plane from working any better than it would prevent your ability to ask Bob's wife questions about Bob.
You aren't magically getting info from nowhere. You are magically communicating with an outsider and asking questions of them.
CoP or Commune would work if the questions were related to stuff done while the guy wasn't under Mind Blank or know to the god through other systems. At that point you are asking "common" knowledge available from multiple sources.
I.e. if the question is "Was Bob the wizard that killed the dragon Murtok?" and Bob the wizard has written a book for the Pathfinders about him slaying the dragon Murtok or simply has told the tale to some friend it will be probably know to the god and commune will say "Yes".
If the question is "Where is Bob the wizard?" the caster will get a unknown reply or even nothing unless a follower of the god has seen Bob in the flesh and has somewhat communicated that to the god (as a rule of thumb I generally consider that when a priest meditate to replenish spells all his knowledge of what happened to and around him is related to the god, when "lesser" follower pray to the god some information is related, too, all this without any expenditure of power on the god part).
Remember that in the D&D setting gods aren't omniscient, and Commune at least don't guarantee that you will contact your deity directly, you could get one of his lesser minions.
One of the problems in that thread is that people was advocating using 10 spellcasters casting Contact other Planes in parallel sharing the informations in real time to locate someone or having several priest casting Commune contacting different gods to find the guy they were searching for.
So it was as much a question of how far you can push Commune/CoP than of how far Mind Blank protect the target.
I am one of the posters in the other thread. My use of the spell is as follows, as an example.
Did a human kill/kidnap the Efreet
Did a dragon kill the Efreet
Was it a wizard.-->I am asking was any wizard involved
Was it a sorcerer.--
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this-->Very general statement that eliminates suspects
You just keep dropping the possible suspects this way.
The problem of that approach is that you are restricting the field arbitrary if you allow it to work as a GM.
"Did a human kill/kidnap the Efreet"
The human is under MB:
possibly replies
simple -> unknown
the god take the time to look in the dead/kidnapped mind efreeti -> unknow
(the culprit had a human aspect as far as the efreti know, but the god know that it could be easily from one of several races with a very human aspect or could be a shaped changed or simply disguised non human "something")
Did a dragon kill the Efreet?
Same as above
Was it a wizard.-->I am asking was any wizard involved
Same as above
The god can make a spellcraft check looking (on the efreti memory) what spells the conjurer used but that at most will say if the caster was a arcane or divine spell user.
Was it a sorcerer.--
Same as above
Are there more than 30 people in this category than can do this-->Very general statement that eliminates suspects -> almost certainly "Yes"
We have several hundred of level 17+ casters in the area of Golarion documented so far and you will only have got very generic answers from what the efreti saw, so your question will boil down to "It was done by someone using this Arcane or Divine spells, there are more than x guys capable of doing that"
Note that simple things like a ring of spell storing plus high wisdom/intelligence/charisma (thank to stat boosting items) can easily allow a access to spells from a list normally prohibited to you and a god perfectly know that.
Then add that the Golarion setting include all the as jet undocumented part of the world, included the seas, the ancient saurial spellcaster in stasis, the races living under the earth and the other planets in the system (from the material printed so far there is even a "race" of non human lichs living in space). So your list is very long.
Or your list of suspects was incomplete from the beginning, and Bob just happens to be Mind Blanked.If I ask if 15 people are capable of doing activity X through my patented yes/no game, and knocking it down to 3 humans then it would work. The whole point of the yes/no game is to get an exact number of suspects from a certain race at least.
You visit the ones that you can or spy one them if you don't think they will cooperate. Getting an exact number is not hard since it is very general question. It is like asking how many people in the world are capable of dunking an 11 foot basketball, but with a specific number.
You can also rattle off a list of names of people that you know can do X, and ask is the list complete.Except that the answer will be "unclear". Gods can't know whether its only 15 people. All they can answer is if only 15 people known to them can do this.
They are NOT omniscient. Their minions - which you can get by ways of Commune - even less so. You simply cannot get a complete list of suspects.
You are assuming it will be unclear. Contact other Plane is also an option to verify the other numbers. You roll the dice and get a percentage depending on the risk you are willing to take. Commune has the same yes/no format, but it does not have the penalty of having your mental scores dropped, which is why I have been advocating commune instead of CoP. If I really need to know I cast a Wish spell for a one time +10 to my ability check. That is pretty much an autopass. Then I have an 88% chance to get a true answer. If I am still using multiple casters the chance goes up.
Edit:With commune the deity may not know. I misread you at first, but I do think I can get a good ball park number to work with before I start playing with CoP.
When people start chain casting Commune/Contact other planes to resolve problems your game has much more problems that if people is binding genies to chan cast wishes.
That may be true, but this is more of an exercise to see if a caster can get away with it. I don't think any of us would really allow chain binding to be abused in such a way so hopefully it never comes to this in a real game.
On another note I thought that only the nobles could grant wishes before this thread. It is well beyond my suspension of belief for the commoner version of a CR 8 monster to even have this ability. Even Pit Fiends can only do it once per year. I can't even imagine the genie society would be stable. They can planeshift IIRC so I can see them chain wishing themselves into a great amount of power. I would think a genie would see a high level wizard as an ally, not an oppressor.
I will probably move the wish ability to nobles, and then advance them to CR 15 with some ties to a deity or something similar that makes the wish binding a bad idea. It is not because my players would try it, but the idea of such a thing existing just seems completely illogical to me.
.
..
...
....
.....
How about asking a 16th-17th level Bard to use mundane methods of detection - process of elimination through investigation, mundane information gathering and so on.
Bardic Knowledge
A bard adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained.
Bard at say, 16th level - uses:
Knowledge: Local Know hidden organizations, rulers, and locations DC 20.
Lets give them the less-than-optimal ranks of 10 and an Intelligence score of 14.
Total Check Bonus:
::
I doubt any caster was spawned from nothing - granted they could attempt to erase all connections with their past but the process in itself would provide more opportunities for mundane methods of investigation to succeed.
|
|
When people start chain casting Commune/Contact other planes to resolve problems your game has much more problems that if people is binding genies to chan cast wishes.
That may be true, but this is more of an exercise to see if a caster can get away with it. I don't think any of us would really allow chain binding to be abused in such a way so hopefully it never comes to this in a real game.On another note I thought that only the nobles could grant wishes before this thread. It is well beyond my suspension of belief for the commoner version of a CR 8 monster to even have this ability. Even Pit Fiends can only do it once per year. I can't even imagine the genie society would be stable. They can planeshift IIRC so I can see them chain wishing themselves into a great amount of power. I would think a genie would see a high level wizard as an ally, not an oppressor.
I will probably move the wish ability to nobles, and then advance them to CR 15 with some ties to a deity or something similar that makes the wish binding a bad idea. It is not because my players would try it, but the idea of such a thing existing just seems completely illogical to me.
All good houserules.
1rst and 2nd edition it had the same problem, a relatively low power monster that granted wishes.
My problem is that I have seen people advocating CoP/Commune as a solution, not as a thought exercise about breaking the boundaries of the game.
About the OP argument, I have seen some interesting question here, that boil down to:
- Mind Blank will allow to gather information abut the target with divinations that use indirect means?
or to put it another way
- Mind Blank block any kind of information gathering through divination even if it know by a contacted third party?
My opinion is that divinations can gather informations when you ask what the third party know or can see/hear directly, so using Telepatic Bond to ask "Are you near the wizard Murlind" [the wizard Murlind has MB]) work perfectly.
"Where are you?" in the above scenario work perfectly.
Even asking "The wizard Murlind is in his tower?" will work and the reply from the guy at the other end of the spell will be heard (not that it will necessary be the truth or that he will know).
Casting commune and asking "The wizard Murlind is in his tower?" will not work unless the deity/minion has some very specific reason to know that (as an example, a cleric of the deity that know who is Murlind is and what is his aspect has just be killed by aforementioned Murlind casting a fireball from a window of his tower. And the cleric cold even be mistaken or have been fooled in thinking that).
Look my previsious post about the commune tactic too. I added the second part while you were typing one of your posts, I think.
.
Bard at say, 16th level - uses:
Knowledge: Local Know hidden organizations, rulers, and locations DC 20.
Lets give them the less-than-optimal ranks of 10 and an Intelligence score of 14.
Total Check Bonus:
::
I doubt any caster was spawned from nothing - granted they could attempt to erase all connections with their past but the process in itself would provide more opportunities for mundane methods of investigation to succeed.
It will work (even if for some secret organization I would rise the DC.
It all depend on how far removed from your location is the target of the investigation.
In the scenario that started this side topic he was a spellcaster on another plane of existence, so a bit hard to find through Gather Information: local ;-)
If it is true that the spell blocks /all/ divination spells where the answer could possibly include the MB'd target then I posit the following and ask how you would adjudicate them:
Bob is Mind blanked. No one else is.
1) Bob is wearing a black tabard. So are 12 people in a city square. Jim and John are talking via Mind Blank. John is watching the square, Jim is out of sight of the square. Jim asks "how many people are wearing black tabards at the square".
a) does the question go through?
b) what answer is transmitted?
2) Same scenario as above except that Jim asks "Is Bob in the square".
a) does the question go through? If so: where is the breakdown from MB? Does it block the question or the answer? are the parties notified?
3) Jim was actually a previous victim of Bob.
Jim sees Bob in the square.
a) can he tell John that he sees Bob?
b) can John ask Jim if he sees the killer?
Altering the base scenario:
Bob the Attempted Murderer is walking through the square unprotected.
Jim sees him and begins to describe him to John through their Bond. Bob then casts MB.
Is the conversation suddenly interrupted because they are talking about an MB'd subject?
Is someone who is under the effect of both a Telepathic Bond and a Mind Blank impossible to communicate with under the effects of the spell? Can he tell someone else through the spell that he is ok? Can he only communicate through the bond about things other than himself?
I'm using Telepathic Bond for a reason. This is not a "divination" cast for any specific purpose. The two could be brothers who's parents had it put on them at birth and now 20 years later they happen to be communicating about someone who is MB'd. Under the broad interpretation however you end up with very bizarre and counter-intuitive results.
Mind Blank was written with a very general statement that then went on to detail with great specificity how the spell was to be handled. You are taking the broad statement as the rule, rather than the specific statements that are actually how you treat the spell.
I would argue that you are giving the spell an overly broad interpretation by taking parts of it out of context with the other.
It is a common way to communicate in writing where you make a broad general statement and then refine and define it into the subject you are actually talking about. Mind Blank does exactly this.
"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic."
which it then goes on to define and to explain how it works against divinations. Spells that happen to be divinations of which the subject is not the target should work just fine. You are not erased from existence or memory when you cast MB. You just cloak yourself from someone casting a spell at you. It does not, and should not, protect two individuals from using magic to talk *about you*.
-S
This is my kind of discussion!
If it is true that the spell blocks /all/ divination spells where the answer could possibly include the MB'd target then I posit the following and ask how you would adjudicate them:
Bob is Mind blanked. No one else is.
1) Bob is wearing a black tabard. So are 12 people in a city square. Jim and John are talking via Mind Blank. John is watching the square, Jim is out of sight of the square. Jim asks "how many people are wearing black tabards at the square".
a) does the question go through?
b) what answer is transmitted?
I assume you mean Bob is mind blanked and jim/john are talking via telepathic bond. I just thought of something. Mind Blank quite specifically states it blocks the SPELL from GATHERING information. If the spell is not providing the information, I'd say it works.
a) Yes
b) I'd say this works. John knows the information already, and can relay his known info via telepathic bond.
2) Same scenario as above except that Jim asks "Is Bob in the square".
a) does the question go through? If so: where is the breakdown from MB? Does it block the question or the answer? are the parties notified?
A) Yes, works fine because John himself knows where bob is.
3) Jim was actually a previous victim of Bob.
Jim sees Bob in the square.
a) can he tell John that he sees Bob?
b) can John ask Jim if he sees the killer?
a) Yes works, same as aboe
b) yesAltering the base scenario:
Bob the Attempted Murderer is walking through the square unprotected.
Jim sees him and begins to describe him to John through their Bond. Bob then casts MB.
Is the conversation suddenly interrupted because they are talking about an MB'd subject?
The spell isn't getting the information, Jim/John already has it. Works fine.
Is someone who is under the effect of both a Telepathic Bond and a Mind Blank impossible to communicate with under the effects of the spell? Can he tell someone else through the spell that he is ok? Can he only communicate through the bond about things other than himself?
Telepathic bond doesn't actively gather any information, so it works fine.
I'm using Telepathic Bond for a reason. This is not a "divination" cast for any specific purpose. The two could be brothers who's parents had it put on them at birth and now 20 years later they happen to be communicating about someone who is MB'd. Under the broad interpretation however you end up with very bizarre and counter-intuitive results.
Mind Blank was written with a very general statement that then went on to detail with great specificity how the spell was to be handled. You are taking the broad statement as the rule, rather than the specific statements that are actually how you treat the spell.
I would argue that you are giving the spell an overly broad interpretation by taking parts of it out of context with the other.It is a common way to communicate in writing where you make a broad general statement and then refine and define it into the subject you are actually talking about. Mind Blank does exactly this.
"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic."
which it then goes on to define and to explain how it works against divinations. Spells that happen to be divinations of which the subject is not the target should work just fine. You are not erased from existence or memory when you cast MB. You just cloak yourself from someone casting a spell at you. It does not, and should not, protect two individuals from using magic to talk *about you*.
I agree with you. I do not agree that a god or outer planes automatically know where the mind blanked wizard is located. How do they find out to answer your commune/CoP? They cast discern location. Discern location specifically states: "A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object."
This tells me that Mind blank is on par with deity intervention for avoiding being located.
Also, note commune states, "The spell, at best, provides information to aid character decisions. The entities contacted structure their answers to further their own purposes."
CoP states, "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces." Showing that a deity can block information from being revealed by CoP. It also allows for "forces" to block it. I believe mind blank to be covered under those forces. Also, note that discern location is an 8th level spell. CoP is a 6th level spell. Mind blank blocks detect evil/good/etc (1st), locate creature/object spells (4th), Scrying (3-5th), limited wish (7th), miracle (9th) or wish (9th).
An example of a divination spell that mind blank would have no effect on is foresight. Someone with foresight will still never be flat-footed to someone with mindblank. Foresight will still provide them all the benefits it states it does. It is not gathering any information about the mind blanked creature.
You are inferring through that the spell is having someone else cast a spell for you rather than the being in question just.. knowing the answer.
The CoP already covers the being knowing the question.
You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there.
The entity either knows or doesn't know. It also will either lie, tell the truth, or be ambiguous.
The spell does not say that it forces some other being to cast divinations for you. You are in effect asking a planar "john" to tell you what he knows about something- just in a very limited fashion.Now whether or not you believe the answer is a different matter entirely of course- but you are polling their knowledge not their ability to cast spells on your behalf. At least, according to the spell.
Commune does the exact same thing. You are asking your deity a question and if that question falls under their direct knowledge then you get an answer.
Commune quote:
The answers given are correct within the limits of the entity's knowledge.
Again you aren't asking them to make a divination for you or even to send someone out and figure the answer: you are asking them if they know the answer and if so: to provide it. Yes/No/Unclear. In cases where they do not know, "Unclear" would be a valid answer. The spell even allows for "I do not know" to be an answer (since its under 5 words) though that would be deity specific. (polling a god of lies or deception for example may not be the best idea for this spell..)
-S
stuffs
Are you casting a spell? Does it provide information about the recipient of the mind blank spell? Then it fails.
It doesn't matter how the spell provides the information -- only that it does so. Mind blank prevents the information from being obtained through magic period.
I assume you mean Bob is mind blanked and jim/john are talking via telepathic bond. I just thought of something. Mind Blank quite specifically states it blocks the SPELL from GATHERING information. If the spell is not providing the information, I'd say it works.
This. If the spell is telling you the information, it fails. If the spell is putting you in contact with someone who already knows that information, there's no reason mind blank would filter it. It says "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible)." To me at least, it's clearly only blocking spells that gather information. Not spells that open communication channels.
Basically, if there is a NPC on the other end of the spell (i.e. someone you can have a dialog with), you can get any information that NPC has. They may not know anything, but whatever they know you can have if you can talk them into telling you. If the spell provides its own answers, then it's blocked.
|
Developer
|
If the spell is telling you the information, it fails. If the spell is putting you in contact with someone who already knows that information, there's no reason mind blank would filter it. It says "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible)." To me at least, it's clearly only blocking spells that gather information. Not spells that open communication channels.
+1
This is an excellent point, and one I had not considered,
If the spell is telling you the information, it fails. If the spell is putting you in contact with someone who already knows that information, there's no reason mind blank would filter it. It says "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible)." To me at least, it's clearly only blocking spells that gather information. Not spells that open communication channels.
+1
This is an excellent point, and one I had not considered,
No it isn't.
What type of spell is it?
Divination
What does it do?
Gathers information.
That is all commune and contact other plane do, they gather information, and they are divination.
Mind blank is specific here:
It blocks all attempts from all spells or devices that gather information about the subject that use divination.
So if it uses divination and it gathers information no matter the means used then it is blocked.
No matter the means it uses to do so.
|
Developer
|
What does it do?Gathers information.
His point, and my agreement, is that the function of the spell is communication, not information gathering. The spell doesn't gather information, it just transmits it.
On second thought, though, this leads into the whole Commune problem.
Yes... telepathic bond is house ruled evocation for me to avoid this.
You are right. Information transfer is information gathering or Mind Blank might as well not work at all. Telepathic bond fails, too.
I fell into my own trap of fluff trumping rules
Yup!
Now there are means that are magical that you could use that might give you information about the subject -- conjuration (specifically summoning and Calling) spells are not blocked. So if you knew an outsider that had specific information about the target in question then you could summon/call that outsider to you and (in the case of summoning) demand answers or (in the case of calling) bargain for them.
However the likelihood that you will find an outsider that knows something about the target that is pertinent, current, and useful is extremely rare -- after all there are how many people/creatures/things in the multiverse and the outsider is very likely to be busy with their own stuff.
Remember that outsiders are not omniscient, omnipresent or omnipotent -- they forget things, lie, and simply don't know just as much as any other creature. They are also not noted for having photographic memories, caring too much about the prime material (or even having regular exposure to the prime material), or having knowledge of current mortal affairs.
You could ask about a specific person with a specific name and it is quite possible the outsider will tell you about someone else than whom you thought you were asking about -- this other person would have the same name and description (according to the information you provide), but wouldn't be the same guy.
Even if they do have such information you still have to get it from them.
Necromancy is also not blocked, so there are a few spells on that end that might help too (like creating an intelligent undead to answer questions about what killed it when it wasn't undead) -- of course these spells also have their own problems too.
So if it uses divination and it gathers information no matter the means used then it is blocked.No matter the means it uses to do so.
I don't think that's true by RAW. Telepathic Bond (or message for that matter) doesn't gather information no matter how much you bold it.
The only point of contention I can see, is whether Commune and like spells themselves are considered information gathering spells, or if they just open up communication with a deity at the other end.
Far as I see it, this isn't about how Mind Blank works (because that's pretty clear to me) but how Commune, etc., work. I mean, if you're a cleric dedicated to an ideal, rather than a deity, who's picking up at the other end? A random outsider? Is the spell itself magic'ing up an answer?
I think the Commune question is up to GM/setting fiat.
If the spell is telling you the information, it fails. If the spell is putting you in contact with someone who already knows that information, there's no reason mind blank would filter it. It says "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible)." To me at least, it's clearly only blocking spells that gather information. Not spells that open communication channels.
+1
This is an excellent point, and one I had not considered,No it isn't.
What type of spell is it?
Divination
What does it do?
Gathers information.
That is all commune and contact other plane do, they gather information, and they are divination.
Mind blank is specific here:
It blocks all attempts from all spells or devices that gather information about the subject that use divination.
So if it uses divination and it gathers information no matter the means used then it is blocked.
No matter the means it uses to do so.
I agree with you in general - I just disagree about what "gather information" means. See the other paragraph of my post:
Basically, if there is a NPC on the other end of the spell (i.e. someone you can have a dialog with), you can get any information that NPC has. They may not know anything, but whatever they know you can have if you can talk them into telling you. If the spell provides its own answers, then it's blocked.
This reading blocks commune and contact other plane, but still allows for telepathic bond, share language, detect thoughts (when used on someone who knows the answer, not when used on the mind-blanked target), share senses (assuming your familier can see it), etc.
My criteria is "If you can say 'Tell me everything you know about the murderer' and be able to be answered, then it works." Commune, contact other plane, scrying, the various detect spells, and so on can't respond to that statement (it's not a question). Telepathic bond and the like allow someone to respond with whatever they know. They may choose not to, they may lie, they may not actually know anything. But they are capable of responding to it.
EDIT: To clarify, I say that a "spell that gathers information" means the spell is giving you the information. If the spell itself isn't giving you that information, then it's legit.
A deity who shares your alignment (or one of her servants) picks up. They anticipated that one in the spell description.I mean, if you're a cleric dedicated to an ideal, rather than a deity, who's picking up at the other end? A random outsider? Is the spell itself magic'ing up an answer?
Ah. Philosophically allied. Whatever that means. :)
I still think the point stands though. You could probably rule Commune (etc.) either way.
I still think the point stands though. You could probably rule Commune (etc.) either way.
No you couldn't.
First off mind blank specifically blocks divination spells from gathering information. Commune is a spell -- it gathers information, it is of the divination school, therefore it is blocked.
"communication channel" is just semantics for "gathering information" after what else are you going to "communicate" about when all it does is answer questions?
Also just because a 3rd level spell contacts an outsider that is philosophically allied with you doesn't mean it contacts your god, or any god for that matter. You might get a simple lantern archon/dretch/lemmure/whatever for your answers (a lemmure being mindless would be really funny) -- and it specifically says that even these creatures are not all knowing, all powerful, or ever present, and that they only answer to the best of their knowledge and with their own reasons.
And they have very good reason to not breach mind blank even if they can -- if they start doing it then everyone is going to start doing it, and their own side has much to lose if all the people that is on its side using mind blank are breached.
It's simply bad tactics.
This is of course beyond the fact that it simply doesn't work.
This is of course beyond the fact that it simply doesn't work.
All the bolding in the world isn't going to make that any more true. I even agree, but I can still see it being ruled either way. Mechanically speaking, Commune is a divination spell that gathers information. Fluff-wise, Commune is a divination spell that let you ask questions of an outsider (deity or otherwise).
Personally I'd go with mechanics too, but I wouldn't consider the fluff interpretation invalid. I think the problem with Commune is that how it works is different from what it's described as actually doing.
Telepathic bond (or message, or sending, or whatever) simply isn't a spell that gathers information. It's such a far-fetched interpretation of what those spells do, that they really needed to include at least one of them in the example of blocked spells, if they intended them to be blocked.