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The Pits
Actually, what bothers me most about the pit spells, are the fact that everyone assumes they are certain doom to the monster/pc's trapped inside it.
As already mentioned, a rope and grappling hook makes getting out easier.
And the climb DC to get out is not really 25. The spell states the coarse stone walls of the pit have a CLimb DC of 25. What everyone forgets is the SECOND chart under Climb Skill which lists modifiers. "Climbing in a corner where 2 walls meet" lowers the DC by 5. Bracing against opposite walls lowers it by 10.
So your average medium sized creature needs only a climb of 20 to get out, and a large creature who can reach both walls needs only a 15. At level 3 the spell is pretty powerful, but it quickly loses utility as its low (level 2) reflex save becomes an issue, and tougher CR creatures or players climb out easily around level 5-6.
Also you can fly out, levitate out, spider climb out, etc.
Feather Fall (an immediate action) negates all the damage from falling.
I'm not saying it's broken entirely, I'm saying it's broken for a 2nd level spell. At 3rd level it's a great spell.
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I agree with statements #1 and #4: Persistant Spell is too good for the cost and Simulacrum is just ridiculous (unless you start getting into extremely creative definitions of "half-strength").
Half-Strength = Strength / 2
:P
But as Goth Guru just said, its simply scaling back the monster according to the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, there are rules for doing just that in either the Bestiary or the Game Mastery Guide.
The problem (IMO) is with this line:
"the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"
There's no particular connection between a monster's hit dice and what special abilities it might have, however. So "appropriateness" is undefined (and where the GM has to get creative).
Actually, a quick check of the Pathfinder SRD yielded this...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer
Monster advancer that allows you to adjust and change the monster based on CR. While it doesn't allow you cut the HD of a creature in half, it does provide useful examples for how to adjust Spell-Like Abilities such as Wish or those that would give you trouble.
HD of creature = CR*2 if I'm not mistaken.
Therefore if they are no longer of a caster level high enough to cast wish, they can only cast limited wish... etc...
I think it is wrong for you to be able to cast a spell that creates something under your total control that has an ability to cast a spell that you yourself can not cast.
If for flavor you want it to "appear" like something really powerful, fine. But it shouldn't actually be really powerful.
1. Persistent spell, why it is actually broken: compare it to heighten (core vs new book with potential power creep) spell +2 levels is a 10% greater chance to fail a particular save. Two rolls keep the worse is about 25% greater chance to fail a save usually. (please don't nitpick a few percents, I'm ball parking) That being said, I agree it is broken. I like your fix, it's the one I'll probably use if someone wants to use it in my game.
Heighten spell increases all effects dependent on spell level - the spell actually becomes the higher level, it doesn't just effect the saves. If you use a level adjustment of +4 to Persistent Spell rather than +2, then you have effectively ruled the feat out of your game. Why get a +4-5 bonus to the save DC with no other effects when you can Heighten the spell for +4 to the save DC and have other effects to boot? any adjustment above +2 and the feat isn't worth taking. If you don't like it at +2, just ban it.
2. Create Pit: I'm not familiar with this spell but everything you've said seems reasonable to me.
It's no more or less powerful than any other 2nd level battlefield control spell.
3. Touch attack for fire arms: I'm not a big fan of firearms being in the game. That being said, I don't really think they're broken especially as the ranged rogue is already inferior to the twf rogue to such a huge degree. (When I run fire arms are rare to non-existent)
Agree with you there.
4. I dislike this spell as anything but fluff. It really slows down the game for a player to have a bunch of similacra of them self. For me it's less a game balance issue and more a streamlining game play issue. Fortunately the only players I have ever had use this spell used it as part of their "this is what I'm doing after the campaign" and as caretakers for his magic item shops.
Well lets face it, simulacra cost so much to create and repair, you are not going to use them for combat - I think you have the nail on the head that this is pretty much what they are meant for. I believe what ciretose is concerned at is a player deciding to be a jerk and argue that an 11HD genie should have the same SLAs (especially wish) as a 22HD genie. Such players can only be fixed by the GM saying 'NO' very firmly and rapping them on the nose with a rolled up copy of Dragon magazine. If you have a player like this, you will end up resorting to such tactics anyway at some point.
I think it is wrong for you to be able to cast a spell that creates something under your total control that has an ability to cast a spell that you yourself can not cast.
If you mean "cast a spell that a spell caster of your level cannot cast" then I think that is a perfectly reasonable rule of thumb or 'fix' to apply to the application of the spell.
I would say myself that if you create a simulacrum of a genie (for argument sake) it has 11HD and it cannot produce any SLA that duplicates any spell above 6th level (what an 11th level wizard or cleric could cast). Similarly, if you create a simulacrum of a dragon, you use the hit-dice of your simulacrum, not the original, to determine spells and abilities.
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1. Persistent spell, why it is actually broken: compare it to heighten (core vs new book with potential power creep) spell +2 levels is a 10% greater chance to fail a particular save. Two rolls keep the worse is about 25% greater chance to fail a save usually. (please don't nitpick a few percents, I'm ball parking) That being said, I agree it is broken. I like your fix, it's the one I'll probably use if someone wants to use it in my game.Heighten spell increases all effects dependent on spell level - the spell actually becomes the higher level, it doesn't just effect the saves. If you use a level adjustment of +4 to Persistent Spell rather than +2, then you have effectively ruled the feat out of your game. Why get a +4-5 bonus to the save DC with no other effects when you can Heighten the spell for +4 to the save DC and have other effects to boot? any adjustment above +2 and the feat isn't worth taking. If you don't like it at +2, just ban it.
Except in the 50/50 case persistent raises the spell DC by the equivalent of 5 levels. Meaning you would have to have heighten +5 to do the same thing...
What other effects would it have heightened on the SOS spells where persistent would be used?
Exactly.
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I think it is wrong for you to be able to cast a spell that creates something under your total control that has an ability to cast a spell that you yourself can not cast.If you mean "cast a spell that a spell caster of your level cannot cast" then I think that is a perfectly reasonable rule of thumb or 'fix' to apply to the application of the spell.
I would say myself that if you create a simulacrum of a genie (for argument sake) it has 11HD and it cannot produce any SLA that duplicates any spell above 6th level (what an 11th level wizard or cleric could cast). Similarly, if you create a simulacrum of a dragon, you use the hit-dice of your simulacrum, not the original, to determine spells and abilities.
Even in that example, is it balanced to be able to make a double that can cast as effectively as you can?
The intent of the spell was to create a something basically half power.
Unless they go through the bestiary and define what half is for spell like abilities, it is a problem.
Remove the spell like abilities and just make it levels and it could work, but even then the double HD being the marker is problematic, as it means you can make something with the same HD as you possess, meaning you can make yourself from a hypothetical double level you.
It used to have a minimum 1000 xp cost, which was a major hindering factor, but even then it was a broken spell. Remove that...
Like anything you can control it as the DM, but who wants to fight with your PCs?
I agree with statements #1 and #4: Persistant Spell is too good for the cost and Simulacrum is just ridiculous (unless you start getting into extremely creative definitions of "half-strength").
Half-Strength = Strength / 2
:P
But as Goth Guru just said, its simply scaling back the monster according to the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, there are rules for doing just that in either the Bestiary or the Game Mastery Guide.
The problem (IMO) is with this line:
"the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"
There's no particular connection between a monster's hit dice and what special abilities it might have, however. So "appropriateness" is undefined (and where the GM has to get creative).
Actually, a quick check of the Pathfinder SRD yielded this...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer
Monster advancer that allows you to adjust and change the monster based on CR. While it doesn't allow you cut the HD of a creature in half, it does provide useful examples for how to adjust Spell-Like Abilities such as Wish or those that would give you trouble.
HD of creature = CR*2 if I'm not mistaken.
Therefore if they are no longer of a caster level high enough to cast wish, they can only cast limited wish... etc...I think it is wrong for you to be able to cast a spell that creates something under your total control that has an ability to cast a spell that you yourself can not cast.
If for flavor you want it to "appear" like something really powerful, fine. But it shouldn't actually be really powerful.
The summon monster IX spell is broken?
I think it is wrong for you to be able to cast a spell that creates something under your total control that has an ability to cast a spell that you yourself can not cast.If you mean "cast a spell that a spell caster of your level cannot cast" then I think that is a perfectly reasonable rule of thumb or 'fix' to apply to the application of the spell.
I would say myself that if you create a simulacrum of a genie (for argument sake) it has 11HD and it cannot produce any SLA that duplicates any spell above 6th level (what an 11th level wizard or cleric could cast). Similarly, if you create a simulacrum of a dragon, you use the hit-dice of your simulacrum, not the original, to determine spells and abilities.
Even in that example, is it balanced to be able to make a double that can cast as effectively as you can?
The intent of the spell was to create a something basically half power.
Unless they go through the bestiary and define what half is for spell like abilities, it is a problem.
Remove the spell like abilities and just make it levels and it could work, but even then the double HD being the marker is problematic, as it means you can make something with the same HD as you possess, meaning you can make yourself from a hypothetical double level you.
It used to have a minimum 1000 xp cost, which was a major hindering factor, but even then it was a broken spell. Remove that...
Like anything you can control it as the DM, but who wants to fight with your PCs?
Why do you have to fight the PC's? Explain to them how things are balanced in the game. You can also put the shoe on the other foot, and ask them if it would be fair for an enemy caster to create an army of such monsters and use them against them?
As for the pit spell being better than the other spells Dabbler made great points that were never countered.If fighting PC's that don't understand balance is the issue the problem is still not the spell.
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The summon monster IX spell is broken?I agree with statements #1 and #4: Persistant Spell is too good for the cost and Simulacrum is just ridiculous (unless you start getting into extremely creative definitions of "half-strength").
Half-Strength = Strength / 2
:P
But as Goth Guru just said, its simply scaling back the monster according to the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, there are rules for doing just that in either the Bestiary or the Game Mastery Guide.
The problem (IMO) is with this line:
"the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"
There's no particular connection between a monster's hit dice and what special abilities it might have, however. So "appropriateness" is undefined (and where the GM has to get creative).
Actually, a quick check of the Pathfinder SRD yielded this...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer
Monster advancer that allows you to adjust and change the monster based on CR. While it doesn't allow you cut the HD of a creature in half, it does provide useful examples for how to adjust Spell-Like Abilities such as Wish or those that would give you trouble.
HD of creature = CR*2 if I'm not mistaken.
Therefore if they are no longer of a caster level high enough to cast wish, they can only cast limited wish... etc...I think it is wrong for you to be able to cast a spell that creates something under your total control that has an ability to cast a spell that you yourself can not cast.
If for flavor you want it to "appear" like something really powerful, fine. But it shouldn't actually be really powerful.
Completely different, since summon monster literally summons the monster for a short duration and this is included in the spell description.
"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish)."
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Why do you have to fight the PC's? Explain to them how things are balanced in the game. You can also put the shoe on the other foot, and ask them if it would be fair for an enemy caster to create an army of such monsters and use them against them?
As for the pit spell being better than the other spells Dabbler made great points that were never countered.If fighting PC's that don't understand balance is the issue the problem is still not the spell.
The only debatable one is glitterdust, as both web and entangle have two saves (the save and CMD) which allows a save each round.
The climb check is 25, meaning a 3rd level player has almost no chance. The hook and ladder minimum 3 rounds (you fall prone, move action to stand up, move action to get out the grappling hook, end of round)
Despite him "Never seeing it" Glitter dust allows a save each round, on the players turn.
"Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect."
If they go next in initiative order, they get another save attempt in the same round at the end of their turn.
What else didn't I counter?
The summon monster IX spell is broken?I agree with statements #1 and #4: Persistant Spell is too good for the cost and Simulacrum is just ridiculous (unless you start getting into extremely creative definitions of "half-strength").
Half-Strength = Strength / 2
:P
But as Goth Guru just said, its simply scaling back the monster according to the rules. Unless I'm mistaken, there are rules for doing just that in either the Bestiary or the Game Mastery Guide.
The problem (IMO) is with this line:
"the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"
There's no particular connection between a monster's hit dice and what special abilities it might have, however. So "appropriateness" is undefined (and where the GM has to get creative).
Actually, a quick check of the Pathfinder SRD yielded this...
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-advancer
Monster advancer that allows you to adjust and change the monster based on CR. While it doesn't allow you cut the HD of a creature in half, it does provide useful examples for how to adjust Spell-Like Abilities such as Wish or those that would give you trouble.
HD of creature = CR*2 if I'm not mistaken.
Therefore if they are no longer of a caster level high enough to cast wish, they can only cast limited wish... etc...I think it is wrong for you to be able to cast a spell that creates something under your total control that has an ability to cast a spell that you yourself can not cast.
If for flavor you want it to "appear" like something really powerful, fine. But it shouldn't actually be really powerful.
Completely different, since summon monster literally summons the monster for a short duration and this is included in the spell description.
"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure...
So the only issue is the wish spell which a CR 8 monster should not have anyway. Well maybe your other issue is that there are not perfect instuctions on how to use the spell with every monster, but the thing is there is no way to account for every monster that could be created. Unless a DM has a history of bad rulings I think there are very low percentage of players that will give him a hard time even if they don't agree.
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So the only issue is the wish spell which a CR 8 monster should not have anyway. Well maybe your other issue is that there are not perfect instuctions on how to use the spell with every monster, but the thing is there is no way to account for every monster that could be created. Unless a DM has a history of bad rulings I think there are very low percentage of players that will give him a hard time even if they don't agree.
It isn't built off of CR. It's built off of HD. That is the problem.
The equation is double your caster level (functionally double your HD for most full casters) at half power. Meaning you could create something twice as powerful as you, but running at half power...so something as powerful as you.
You've now doubled yourself, functionally.
The old spell limitations (must have piece of thing, XP cost) helped, but that spell was a problem. Now you've removed even those limitations and the spell is off the rails.
Why do you have to fight the PC's? Explain to them how things are balanced in the game. You can also put the shoe on the other foot, and ask them if it would be fair for an enemy caster to create an army of such monsters and use them against them?
As for the pit spell being better than the other spells Dabbler made great points that were never countered.If fighting PC's that don't understand balance is the issue the problem is still not the spell.
The only debatable one is glitterdust, as both web and entangle have two saves (the save and CMD) which allows a save each round.
The climb check is 25, meaning a 3rd level player has almost no chance. The hook and ladder minimum 3 rounds (you fall prone, move action to stand up, move action to get out the grappling hook, end of round)
Despite him "Never seeing it" Glitter dust allows a save each round, on the players turn.
"Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect."
If they go next in initiative order, they get another save attempt in the same round at the end of their turn.
What else didn't I counter?
Web-If you have at least 5 feet of web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover.
The Pit spell does not do that for you, and you don't even need a save to get out if you can fly or have a cheap rope and hook.
Flying can also still be taken care of with web depending on the area mean that web has a longer shelf life. You don't even need fly, just levitate.
Entangle has a 40 ft area and even making the save may not get you in the clear. That means due to the size of entangle you may be forced into another save. Once you are out of the pit you are out of the pit, and if you make the save there is no annoying 2nd affect to deal with, not do you have to worry about a 40 ft radius. The DC for entangle is also a strength check if you fail so if you are not a melee type most likely you are just stuck there. All I can say is don't fail the first reflex save.
There are traps that put players in pits. Those are normally laughed off by people that don't respect traps, and those that do. Why should this pit get any more respect?
Unlike Web if I entangle someone I don't have to worry about a miss chance. Entangle can also remain useful for a longer period of a character's life.
Falling into pits has been happening for so long that people just don't worry about or it never materialized as a real threat.
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Web-If you have at least 5 feet of web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover.The Pit spell does not do that for you, and you don't even need a save to get out if you can fly or have a cheap rope and hook.
Flying can also still be taken care of with web depending on the area mean that web has a longer shelf life. You don't even need fly, just levitate.
Entangle has a 40 ft area and even making the save may not get you in the clear. That means due to the size of entangle you may be forced into another save. Once you are out of the pit you are out of the pit, and if you make the save there is no annoying 2nd affect to deal with, not do you have to worry about a 40 ft radius. The DC for entangle is also a strength check if you fail so if you are not a melee type most likely you are just stuck there. All I can say is don't fail the first reflex save.
There are traps that put players in pits. Those are normally laughed off by people that don't respect traps, and those that do. Why should this pit get any more respect?
Unlike Web if I entangle someone I don't have to worry about a miss chance. Entangle can also remain useful for a longer period of a character's life.
Falling into pits has been happening for so long that people just don't worry about or it never materialized as a real threat.
Falling into pits is fine, since you get a perception/sense trap check first. Hence having two checks you need to fail.
This is creating a pit out of thin air, anywhere, at medium range, with a single save to avoid falling in and a) taking damage, b) Being removed from combat c) having a battlefield obstacle to conten with.
If it were a 3rd level spell it would be fine, as by 5th level you should be equipped to deal with these kind of things.
At 3rd level you probably just got your first magic weapon, you don't have the WBL to afford to carry potions beyond a few cure lights, and you can't reasonably make the climb check unless you focuses on climb, have a high strength, and are wearing light armor.
Round 1 you fall in.
On your turn, if you have the grappling hook it is a round to stand up and get it. For glitterdust you just got a save from blindness, for the other two you've already had the CMD save.
Round 2.
Ranged touch attack for the hook, one move action at 1/4 your speed. You are now on the wall, but not out (10 foot min, edges of the pit also require a save if you end there. This whole time you (and your rope) are vulnerable to an attack that could restart the process.
Round 3 You can climb out, although by now the pit is rising behind you, so...
It isn't built off of CR. It's built off of HD. That is the problem.
So the only issue is the wish spell which a CR 8 monster should not have anyway. Well maybe your other issue is that there are not perfect instuctions on how to use the spell with every monster, but the thing is there is no way to account for every monster that could be created. Unless a DM has a history of bad rulings I think there are very low percentage of players that will give him a hard time even if they don't agree.
Right; the "HD vs. power" thing is the fundamental problem and efreet with Wishes is an example of that problem. We could create a long list of examples (e.g. templates increase power without increasing HD, a 10 HD wizard is more powerful than a 10 HD commoner, etc.), I'm sure.
The equation is double your caster level (functionally double your HD for most full casters) at half power. Meaning you could create something twice as powerful as you, but running at half power...so something as powerful as you.
You've now doubled yourself, functionally.
This is the other issue, although if you made the spell expensive enough (e.g. along the lines of creating a golem) it might not matter.
It isn't built off of CR. It's built off of HD. That is the problem.
The equation is double your caster level (functionally double your HD for most full casters) at half power. Meaning you could create something twice as powerful as you, but running at half power...so something as powerful as you.
You've now doubled yourself, functionally.
There's a couple problems with this. First, it creates a "duplicate" of any creature, which means you can't make up a creature to duplicate. You actually have to make a disguise check to see how well you can make a likeness of the subject, So if you make a duplicate of yourself, it would be half your level. Also, you have to be able to know what the creature looks like. I wouldn't let a picture suffice for this, I would have to say you needed to meet the creature/caster at least.
Also, with the lack of epic rules, you couldn't create a caster of over 10th level with this spell since any duplicate would be unable to more than half of the level limit.
Thirdly, the spell says that the simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. An interesting and severely limiting interpretation of this might be that the simulacrum would not regain spells it knew once they were cast. Regaining spells would make it more powerful and so, by RAW, it couldn't. No more than the spells per day can be used from any one simulacrum or SLA.
And last, if you created a duplicate of something twice as powerful as you, and didn't take extreme caution into consideration, such a being would not generally look to favorably on being duplicated, and could very well hunt you down and destroy your party. I would expect any reasonable DM to do this.
All in all, when looked at closely, I don't consider this spell to be OP, but it still is up to each DM to decide what they want to do with it.
Falling into pits is fine, since you get a perception/sense trap check first. Hence having two checks you need to fail.
You said before the pit itself was the issue. So the pit is not the issue. You want 2 saves?
I would rather be thrown into a pit than blinded. If glitterdust blinds the entire party the bad guys can kill one person before anyone makes a save. If everyone falls into a pit get to climb back out. Advantage Glitterdust.PS:This may be a playstyle issue though. If you get blinded in my games you are probably going to die pretty soon, which is why I am an advocate of only saying something is broken for your own games, and I hate to see it as a general statement.
Being in the pit gives you cover. It's an extradimensional space so some area effects won't reach you. In the pit you can continue your Bard song, or summon monsters to outside the pit. A Bard with a ring of feather falling and a wand of pit may summon the pit under himself when combat begins.
So where exactly do you think that the Pit spell is broken? Your posts seem to imply that 5th level is okay, 3rd level is not.
At 3rd level, the pit is only 10' deep (10' per 2 caster levels, round down unless stated otherwise). As others have pointed out, the Climb skill says that if there are two adjacent walls to work with, the Climb DC is 5 lower. So the Climb check is not actually 25, it's 20, since a 10' by 10' pit means there is no square you can stand in the pit without being adjacent to two walls. So any character attempting a climb check can at least make the check on a natural 20 if they haven't tanked Strength (and if they did, they're probably an optimized caster with other options anyway).
Furthermore, if they do elect to use the grappling hook strategy, if they're using a normal rope, the DC is 5 (for using a rope with a wall to brace against) or 0 (for using a knotted rope with a wall to brace against). They essentially can't fall unless they have a Strength penalty or severe ACP. They can add +5 to move at half speed and get out of the pit in a single move action, and use their other move action to get away from the "slope" at the lip and avoid the reflex save to fall in (they can probably say they're still using the rope and Climb check, for another DC 0 check-using Climb on a slope too steep to walk is DC 0).
If the enemy doesn't go to the edge of the pit, they can't target you- they don't have line of sight or line of effect. If an enemy somehow does go to the lip of the pit without falling in (as they have to make the saving throw as well, or else suffer the same fate) and start harassing the climber, the climber is not in that dire of straits. They do lose their Dex modifier to AC, but if they take damage, the check to avoid falling is not based on the damage they took; it's just their climb check. As has been established before, that's not exactly an insurmountable number unless they're opting to free-climb. If the PC opted to hastily climb with a grappling hook, the enemy doesn't even get the chance to attack them this way, as they are already out of the pit before the end of their climb unless they rolled very poorly. The only possible way would be to ready actions, and again, climb check is not that tough.
I've had worse experience with Entangle, the only spell I've seen routinely occupy Druid lvl 1 slots when they weren't in a city. Since the entire 40' radius (a tremendous area, by the way) is treated as difficult terrain, move actions short of a high-level monk are not going to get you out in a single turn, forcing at least two saves (beginning to sound like Persistent Spell a bit). If you do get trapped, you can't move until you free yourself (thanks to the "tethered" portion of the Entangle condition), ensuring once again that you probably have to make another save against the spell (since you can't move out of the area in time to end your turn outside of it). Also, unlike Create Pit, which protects you from harm while you're out of action, people can attack you freely without recourse- you don't even get cover. You are only protected from melee types who don't want to get stuck with you.
Now, pit minimum depth is 10 feet, duration is 4 rounds.
Wouldn't making it 3rd spell level make it more broken?
At 3rd level, the pit is only 10' deep (10' per 2 caster levels, round down unless stated otherwise). As others have pointed out, the Climb skill says that if there are two adjacent walls to work with, the Climb DC is 5 lower. So the Climb check is not actually 25, it's 20....
Not to mention that for many 3rd-level characters, a +7 Climb check bonus isn't beyond the pale. Also, to just further complicate matters, how difficult would an Acrobatic check to hop up enough to catch the edge of the pit really be? Sure, if the hopper ended his movement at that point, he'd face another Reflex save (but with the +2 bonus).
The climb check is 25, meaning a 3rd level player has almost no chance. The hook and ladder minimum 3 rounds (you fall prone, move action to stand up, move action to get out the grappling hook, end of round)
20 if you use the corner, an 18 Strength 3rd level fighter can have a climb check of 3 ranks +3 class skill +4 strength mod = 10, leaving it easily doable. If the pit is only 10 feet deep, you can jump and catch the edge of it on an acrobatics check DC12 (you won't need more than 3 feet vertically to reach an edge ten feet off the floor). Sure, you can fail - just as you can fail the checks to get out of web, or the saves not to be blinded by glitterdust.
There are at least three ways you can be out of the pit in one round that are available at 3rd level:
Levitate
Spider Climb
Friend with a rope
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Falling into pits is fine, since you get a perception/sense trap check first. Hence having two checks you need to fail.
You said before the pit itself was the issue. So the pit is not the issue. You want 2 saves?
I would rather be thrown into a pit than blinded. If glitterdust blinds the entire party the bad guys can kill one person before anyone makes a save. If everyone falls into a pit get to climb back out. Advantage Glitterdust.PS:This may be a playstyle issue though. If you get blinded in my games you are probably going to die pretty soon, which is why I am an advocate of only saying something is broken for your own games, and I hate to see it as a general statement.
The issue is the lack of viable saves for a 2nd level spell vs what you will be facing at that level.
If it was reflex to fall in with a 2nd reflex to grab the edge to avoid fall damage and be one move action from a pull up it would be fine. As it is, it's three effects with only one save.
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So where exactly do you think that the Pit spell is broken? Your posts seem to imply that 5th level is okay, 3rd level is not.
At 3rd level, the pit is only 10' deep (10' per 2 caster levels, round down unless stated otherwise). As others have pointed out, the Climb skill says that if there are two adjacent walls to work with, the Climb DC is 5 lower. So the Climb check is not actually 25, it's 20, since a 10' by 10' pit means there is no square you can stand in the pit without being adjacent to two walls. So any character attempting a climb check can at least make the check on a natural 20 if they haven't tanked Strength (and if they did, they're probably an optimized caster with other options anyway).
Furthermore, if they do elect to use the grappling hook strategy, if they're using a normal rope, the DC is 5 (for using a rope with a wall to brace against) or 0 (for using a knotted rope with a wall to brace against). They essentially can't fall unless they have a Strength penalty or severe ACP. They can add +5 to move at half speed and get out of the pit in a single move action, and use their other move action to get away from the "slope" at the lip and avoid the reflex save to fall in (they can probably say they're still using the rope and Climb check, for another DC 0 check-using Climb on a slope too steep to walk is DC 0).
If the enemy doesn't go to the edge of the pit, they can't target you- they don't have line of sight or line of effect. If an enemy somehow does go to the lip of the pit without falling in (as they have to make the saving throw as well, or else suffer the same fate) and start harassing the climber, the climber is not in that dire of straits. They do lose their Dex modifier to AC, but if they take damage, the check to avoid falling is not based on the damage they took; it's just their climb check. As has been established before, that's not exactly an insurmountable number unless they're opting to free-climb. If the PC opted to hastily climb with a grappling hook, the enemy doesn't...
The spell itself sets the climb DC at 25.
Fall take damage and you are prone. Your round you get up (move) retrieve grappling hook (move), next round you throw hook (standard), climb (move).
All if you fail one save.
If you are wearing armor of any size, 1/2 your movement is 10, so you aren't out. If you are medium 1/2 your movement is 15, meaning you are on the sloped part and need to make a save not to fall back in.
I actually feel better about it now that I see it has a spell component cost, and it is the least broken of the 4 I posted, but I still think it is a problem spell.
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The climb check is 25, meaning a 3rd level player has almost no chance. The hook and ladder minimum 3 rounds (you fall prone, move action to stand up, move action to get out the grappling hook, end of round)20 if you use the corner, an 18 Strength 3rd level fighter can have a climb check of 3 ranks +3 class skill +4 strength mod = 10, leaving it easily doable. If the pit is only 10 feet deep, you can jump and catch the edge of it on an acrobatics check DC12 (you won't need more than 3 feet vertically to reach an edge ten feet off the floor). Sure, you can fail - just as you can fail the checks to get out of web, or the saves not to be blinded by glitterdust.
There are at least three ways you can be out of the pit in one round that are available at 3rd level:
Levitate
Spider Climb
Friend with a rope
You forgot the armor check penalty and movement penalty. Remember climb is now 1/4th unless you want extra penalties.
Also the edges are sloped, so 5 feet on both sides of the pit are also saves, so your jump is now 20ft or reflex.
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At 3rd level, the pit is only 10' deep (10' per 2 caster levels, round down unless stated otherwise). As others have pointed out, the Climb skill says that if there are two adjacent walls to work with, the Climb DC is 5 lower. So the Climb check is not actually 25, it's 20....Not to mention that for many 3rd-level characters, a +7 Climb check bonus isn't beyond the pale. Also, to just further complicate matters, how difficult would an Acrobatic check to hop up enough to catch the edge of the pit really be? Sure, if the hopper ended his movement at that point, he'd face another Reflex save (but with the +2 bonus).
4 foot vertical is DC 16 with a +4 for every foot after. And the edge is sloped.
If you are wearing armor of any size, 1/2 your movement is 10, so you aren't out. If you are medium 1/2 your movement is 15, meaning you are on the sloped part and need to make a save not to fall back in.
I'm wondering. If the pit is 10' deep, and you "climb" 10' as a move action, where does that put you? I thought it would put you on the slope. You certainly can't be in the pit anymore.
That poses another question- theoretically, when on the lip of the pit, you need to make a Ref save or fall back into the pit (+2 bonus, but still). But, you are still holding the rope you used to climb out with. Why would you fall at all? Using a rope to climb a slope too steep to walk is DC 0 (or something like DC -5). Theoretically, you could walk this slope, it just requires a Ref save, so it's even easier than the example slope on the Climb skill.
Entangle, on the other hand, is only Lvl 1 to Create Pit's Lvl 2. It's only saving grace is the terrain type requirement, but outside of that, I see it as meaner than Create Pit in almost all ways. No protection, meaning that while you're out of commission, you're taking damage/being addled by spells, you have an active penalty to your checks to break free, and you are almost guaranteed to need to check multiple times, even if you succeed the first time.
Question on how you interpret Persistent Spell: If someone has the ability to re-roll a failed saving throw, do you allow them to re-roll only one of the Persistent Spell throws, or both, as it's technically the same spell?
The ability to actually set a grappling hook vs the pit edge seems kinda dubious in many terrains.
Since the lip is sloped the ability to grip a surface with the hook is probably pretty limited especially if the surrounding material is hard like a dungeon floor. I think in many cases it would be debatable whether the character could even set a grapple.
Assistance from another character is definitely more likely but that has the dual benefit of keeping a second character occupied.
Falling into pits is fine, since you get a perception/sense trap check first. Hence having two checks you need to fail.
You said before the pit itself was the issue. So the pit is not the issue. You want 2 saves?
I would rather be thrown into a pit than blinded. If glitterdust blinds the entire party the bad guys can kill one person before anyone makes a save. If everyone falls into a pit get to climb back out. Advantage Glitterdust.PS:This may be a playstyle issue though. If you get blinded in my games you are probably going to die pretty soon, which is why I am an advocate of only saying something is broken for your own games, and I hate to see it as a general statement.
The issue is the lack of viable saves for a 2nd level spell vs what you will be facing at that level.
If it was reflex to fall in with a 2nd reflex to grab the edge to avoid fall damage and be one move action from a pull up it would be fine. As it is, it's three effects with only one save.
As myself and another have stated Entangle most likely forces to checks unless a caster is not smart enough to place it correctly. Web can also be used to provide cover even if the party has no intent to trap anyone. Seems pretty flexible for a low level spell, and more useful than the pit spell. As I said both spells also have more staying power. Sorcerers might keep web for an entire campaign. Pit gets dropped off pretty quickly, assuming it gets picked up at all.
You forgot the armor check penalty and movement penalty. Remember climb is now 1/4th unless you want extra penalties.
Once you have climbed 5' you are looking over the edge of the pit and can just vault up, so even 20' base movement is enough to get that far. After that it's another reflex save to get out the rest of the way.
ACP of breastplate is -4, -3 if you are a fighter at 3rd level. At the same level you will likely have a reflex save of +1-3, call it +2 for an average. It's a 2nd level spell, so at most the save is going to be DC17, DC15 on the rim, so you are looking at a 25% chance to make the reflex save. You only need a Climb check of +5 to match the chances of success as if you had multiple saves, and this is easily doable.
Also the edges are sloped, so 5 feet on both sides of the pit are also saves, so your jump is now 20ft or reflex.
... and your complaint about this spell was that it didn't allow extra reflex saves, so that you have to make multiple saves to get out isn't a problem, is it? Acrobatics check DC12 followed by Reflex DC15 isn't any different from several reflex saves, or CMB checks, or Will saves ...
I will agree, this spell is more effective against an armoured tank with an ACP of -8, poor equipment and no magical backup ... and much less effective against lightly armoured foes, those with sensible gear and those with friends. It's basically situational in how effective it is, but on average it is no better than web, entangle or glitterdust.
The ability to actually set a grappling hook vs the pit edge seems kinda dubious in many terrains.
You don't aim at the pit edge, you aim beyond it. Just chuck as far as you can, drag toward you, in many terrains it will snag on something.
Since the lip is sloped the ability to grip a surface with the hook is probably pretty limited especially if the surrounding material is hard like a dungeon floor. I think in many cases it would be debatable whether the character could even set a grapple.
That's entirely possible - it's situational, again. As has been pointed out, the climb check is not that severe, dropping to DC20 if you use two opposed surfaces.
Assistance from another character is definitely more likely but that has the dual benefit of keeping a second character occupied.
Yes, the number of man-rounds out of combat is still the same. It all depends how bad you need the guy in the pit.
It's a nice spell for neutralising a tank, but it's not any worse than making him make a series of Will saves vs blindness.
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If you are wearing armor of any size, 1/2 your movement is 10, so you aren't out. If you are medium 1/2 your movement is 15, meaning you are on the sloped part and need to make a save not to fall back in.I'm wondering. If the pit is 10' deep, and you "climb" 10' as a move action, where does that put you? I thought it would put you on the slope. You certainly can't be in the pit anymore.
That poses another question- theoretically, when on the lip of the pit, you need to make a Ref save or fall back into the pit (+2 bonus, but still). But, you are still holding the rope you used to climb out with. Why would you fall at all? Using a rope to climb a slope too steep to walk is DC 0 (or something like DC -5). Theoretically, you could walk this slope, it just requires a Ref save, so it's even easier than the example slope on the Climb skill.
Entangle, on the other hand, is only Lvl 1 to Create Pit's Lvl 2. It's only saving grace is the terrain type requirement, but outside of that, I see it as meaner than Create Pit in almost all ways. No protection, meaning that while you're out of commission, you're taking damage/being addled by spells, you have an active penalty to your checks to break free, and you are almost guaranteed to need to check multiple times, even if you succeed the first time.
Question on how you interpret Persistent Spell: If someone has the ability to re-roll a failed saving throw, do you allow them to re-roll only one of the Persistent Spell throws, or both, as it's technically the same spell?
Entangle was nerfed. First, there is a reflex save. Second, you can make a strength or excape artist check to become not entangled. Third, entangled as a condition isn't that limiting.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Entangled
Add to that you can only do it in areas that have plants.
As to persistent, the re-roll for either only comes on a made save. So if you fail, re-roll and succeed, you then must re-roll again for persistent.
"Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw."
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Once you have climbed 5' you are looking over the edge of the pit and can just vault up, so even 20' base movement is enough to get that far. After that it's another reflex save to get out the rest of the way.
ACP of breastplate is -4, -3 if you are a fighter at 3rd level. At the same level you will likely have a reflex save of +1-3, call it +2 for an average. It's a 2nd level spell, so at most the save is going to be DC17, DC15 on the rim, so you are looking at a 25% chance to make the reflex save. You only need a Climb check of +5 to match the chances of success as if you had multiple saves, and this is easily doable.
Also the edges are sloped, so 5 feet on both sides of the pit are also saves, so your jump is now 20ft or reflex.... and your complaint about this spell was that it didn't allow extra reflex saves, so that you have to make multiple saves to get out isn't a problem, is it? Acrobatics check DC12 followed by Reflex DC15 isn't any different from several reflex saves, or CMB checks, or Will saves ...
I will agree, this spell is more effective against an armoured tank with an ACP of -8, poor equipment and no magical backup ... and much less effective against lightly armoured foes, those with sensible gear and those with friends. It's basically situational in how effective it is, but on average it is no better than web, entangle or glitterdust.
Vault up? Where is this mechanic you speak of? Particularly since the edge of the pit is sloped on all sides.
Forcing a player to make two saves to succeed isn't the same as allowing more than one opportunity to not fail.
I just addressed entangle (again) above, so I guess I'll address web again as well.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/w/web
You need to fail two saves to be entangled. One to be grappled initially and a CMB or escape artist check to break out as a standard action, meaning you lose a standard action but can still move.
Grappled still allows you to do some things
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Grappled
And web also gives you cover or total cover, one of the "advantages" you said of being in a pit.
And none of them have falling damage.
Once you have climbed 5' you are looking over the edge of the pit and can just vault up, so even 20' base movement is enough to get that far. After that it's another reflex save to get out the rest of the way.
ACP of breastplate is -4, -3 if you are a fighter at 3rd level. At the same level you will likely have a reflex save of +1-3, call it +2 for an average. It's a 2nd level spell, so at most the save is going to be DC17, DC15 on the rim, so you are looking at a 25% chance to make the reflex save. You only need a Climb check of +5 to match the chances of success as if you had multiple saves, and this is easily doable.
Also the edges are sloped, so 5 feet on both sides of the pit are also saves, so your jump is now 20ft or reflex.... and your complaint about this spell was that it didn't allow extra reflex saves, so that you have to make multiple saves to get out isn't a problem, is it? Acrobatics check DC12 followed by Reflex DC15 isn't any different from several reflex saves, or CMB checks, or Will saves ...
I will agree, this spell is more effective against an armoured tank with an ACP of -8, poor equipment and no magical backup ... and much less effective against lightly armoured foes, those with sensible gear and those with friends. It's basically situational in how effective it is, but on average it is no better than web, entangle or glitterdust.
And web also gives you cover or total cover, one of the "advantages" you said of being in a pit.
I came up with the cover argument, and it might not kick in till at least a 15 feet deep pit. It has sloped sides after all. I may join Minecraft to test the argument.
Entangle was nerfed. First, there is a reflex save. Second, you can make a strength or excape artist check to become not entangled. Third, entangled as a condition isn't that limiting.
There is a difference between allowing two saves and forcing two saves. You also keep ignoring the fact the due to the size of the spell you will most likely be forced to make several saves. Myself and another poster mentioned that earlier.
Entangle was nerfed. First, there is a reflex save. Second, you can make a strength or excape artist check to become not entangled. Third, entangled as a condition isn't that limiting.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Entangled
Add to that you can only do it in areas that have plants.
I did grant you that its only saving grace is that the area had to have plants, whereas Create pit only needs a suitably large flat surface.
On the other hand- if you fail any save and become Entangled, you take -4 to Dex. So Escape Artist is taking a penalty if you try to use it. You take -2 to attack rolls, so if you're trying to use ranged attacks against those out of the spell, you're taking a net -4; -2 from Entangle, -2 from your lowered Dex mod. You can't move, because the plants are tethered to an immobile object (the ground), but even if you could move, you would be moving at half speed through difficult terrain, translating to 1/4 speed trying to get out of the 40' radius (80' diameter) circle. You spend a Standard Action each time you attempt to break free, meaning you only have one attempt per turn and if you succeed, one move action in difficult terrain (meaning 10' of move get you 5' without special abilities) to get out before having to save again (another chance to fail).
Forcing a player to make two saves to succeed isn't the same as allowing more than one opportunity to not fail.
I always thought that Entangle was too big for a spell of its level. It's a fine spell: flavorful, situational, potentially powerful, but it's just too darned big.
Actually, on that line of thinking... what if Create Pit were 5' deep instead of 10'? No falling damage, but the caveat that they still have to make the relfex save for the edge of the pit? That would allow the Entangle-style Dex or Strength skill escape (they could conceivably use Acrobatics if they wanted), Web's cover style, no falling damage, and it retains its unique charm of keeping people in a hole?
I came up with the cover argument, and it might not kick in till at least a 15 feet deep pit. It has sloped sides after all. I may join Minecraft to test the argument.
The floor next to the pit is sloped, the sides of the pit aren't, as far as I can tell from the description of the spell. If you can get cover from a wall half as tall as you (in the description of Cover in the Combat section), you should at least get cover from being in a hole almost twice as deep as you are tall.
So the slope does not cut out 5 feet of the pit wall, but maybe 2 feet? It extends about 5 feet from the top of the pit. That hardly seems enough of a slope to cause someone to fall in. Does the 10 feet deep start after the slope? Is the 10 feet in addition to the slope?
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Entangle was nerfed. First, there is a reflex save. Second, you can make a strength or excape artist check to become not entangled. Third, entangled as a condition isn't that limiting.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Entangled
Add to that you can only do it in areas that have plants.
I did grant you that its only saving grace is that the area had to have plants, whereas Create pit only needs a suitably large flat surface.
On the other hand- if you fail any save and become Entangled, you take -4 to Dex. So Escape Artist is taking a penalty if you try to use it. You take -2 to attack rolls, so if you're trying to use ranged attacks against those out of the spell, you're taking a net -4; -2 from Entangle, -2 from your lowered Dex mod. You can't move, because the plants are tethered to an immobile object (the ground), but even if you could move, you would be moving at half speed through difficult terrain, translating to 1/4 speed trying to get out of the 40' radius (80' diameter) circle. You spend a Standard Action each time you attempt to break free, meaning you only have one attempt per turn and if you succeed, one move action in difficult terrain (meaning 10' of move get you 5' without special abilities) to get out before having to save again (another chance to fail).
Forcing a player to make two saves to succeed isn't the same as allowing more than one opportunity to not fail.I always thought that Entangle was too big for a spell of its level. It's a fine spell: flavorful, situational, potentially powerful, but it's just too darned big.
Actually, on that line of thinking... what if Create Pit were 5' deep instead of 10'? No falling damage, but the caveat that they still have to make the relfex save for the edge of the pit? That would allow the Entangle-style Dex or Strength skill escape (they could conceivably use Acrobatics if they wanted), Web's cover style, no falling damage, and it retains its...
It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Entangled
"The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell."
It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting.
When you are stuck on the other side being pinged by arrows and taking fireballs those 2 rounds can seem like a long time.
My opinions only -- take with a grain of salt:
1. Persistent Spell? Remove it. Seriously. If you want the target to have a harder time saving, use Heighten Spell -- that's what it's for. We don't need another feat that (at the end of the math) essentially does the same thing, except better in many cases.
Oh, and metamagic rods? Get rid of them, too. The abuse potential far outweighs the "cool" factor. And thank Gygax that Paizo hasn't tried to re-introduce the "nightstick" yet.
2. Our group hasn't used the "pit" spells at all, because we already get so much mileage out of grease and entangle and black tentacles and so on.
3. I feel that simulacrum is currently just an IDEA for a spell -- because it's not a complete spell with actual working rules. The spell description, at present, basically says "the effects of this spell are 100% DM fiat." Without clear guidelines for what the effects are, the "designer" basically fobs off onto someone else all the work in figuring out the nuts and bolts. Ditto for awaken -- what's the CR adjustment for an Awakened critter, anyway? And reincarnate -- do I get a level adjustment? Or lose levels to make up the difference? Currently, it's all hand-waving. These are draft spell ideas, not working spells.
Ciretose I can only say that you won't convince anyone that anything is broken unless they have issues with it, most likely. If it is giving your group problems then you should remove them.
Fly and invisibility are more annoying for their level than the pit spell will ever be. Of course that is just for me. It might not be an issue to other people.
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It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting.When you are stuck on the other side being pinged by arrows and taking fireballs those 2 rounds can seem like a long time.
If you are taking fireballs how did you fail the save on a first level spell?
You can move at half speed, attack at -2 and take a -4 to dex.
Not that disabling.
It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting
"The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell."
Yes ... and the character in the pit is even less hampered. They have no penalty on dexterity, no penalty on attack rolls, and can cast spells freely. They can attack anything that can attack them, and are unhampered in any action they take to get themselves out of the pit.
As I keep pointing out, both spells are varyingly effective depending on the situation, but on the balance of things are no better or worse than each other.
Sure, if you insist on stomping into a dungeon with a character that has no skills, only one weapon, is poorly equipped save for melee combat, and is armoured like a turtle and about as manoeuvrable ... then it's a problem. So other than encouraging players not to over-specialise their characters, what's the problem?
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My opinions only -- take with a grain of salt:
1. Persistent Spell? Remove it. Seriously. If you want the target to have a harder time saving, use Heighten Spell -- that's what it's for. We don't need another feat that (at the end of the math) essentially does the same thing, except better in many cases.
Oh, and metamagic rods? Get rid of them, too. The abuse potential far outweighs the "cool" factor. And thank Gygax that Paizo hasn't tried to re-introduce the "nightstick" yet.
2. Our group hasn't used the "pit" spells at all, because we already get so much mileage out of grease and entangle and black tentacles and so on.
3. I feel that simulacrum is currently just an IDEA for a spell -- because it's not a complete spell with actual working rules. The spell description, at present, basically says "the effects of this spell are 100% DM fiat." Without clear guidelines for what the effects are, the "designer" basically fobs off onto someone else all the work in figuring out the nuts and bolts. Ditto for awaken -- what's the CR adjustment for an Awakened critter, anyway? And reincarnate -- do I get a level adjustment? Or lose levels to make up the difference? Currently, it's all hand-waving. These are draft spell ideas, not working spells.
I agree with everything you said. For the record I really respect you and your groups houserules effort. Not my style of game, but not some half-assed attempt to subvert rules either.
You have a style you want and you make it balance. Well done.
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It is a low level spell because being entangled isn't that limiting
"The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell."
Yes ... and the character in the pit is even less hampered. They have no penalty on dexterity, no penalty on attack rolls, and can cast spells freely. They can attack anything that can attack them, and are unhampered in any action they take to get themselves out of the pit.
As I keep pointing out, both spells are varyingly effective depending on the situation, but on the balance of things are no better or worse than each other.
Sure, if you insist on stomping into a dungeon with a character that has no skills, only one weapon, is poorly equipped save for melee combat, and is armoured like a turtle and about as manoeuvrable ... then it's a problem. So other than encouraging players not to over-specialise their characters, what's the problem?
You can cast pit anywhere (no plant requirement) it does damage, makes you fall prone, has only a single save, and takes 3 rounds to escape if you have the proper equipment.
Entangle requires plants to be there, allows a second very make able strength or escape artist check, not to mention being able to take half movement to leave the area where it was cast. It does no damage at all and the penalties you receive if you fail aren't all that impressive.
Entangle is a very good, specific use (outdoors in plant filled area) spell.
Pit doesn't work on anything as big as an admantium golem.
There should be Big Pit (Possibly 4th spell level) and Bigger Pit(6th spell level.)
Some claim enlarge spell will not work on Pit.
You can cast pit anywhere (no plant requirement) it does damage, makes you fall prone, has only a single save, and takes 3 rounds to escape if you have the proper equipment.
You can't cast create pit anywhere, Acrobatics can lessen falling damage, being prone is less of a hindrance than being entangled, and with the proper equipment one could be out in 1 round.
Entangle is a very good, specific use (outdoors in plant filled area) spell.
There is no requirement that entangle be cast only in outdoor, plant-filled areas.