Basically I am aiming to have this system lift the bottom end of characters' skill abilities by giving them a set of base bonuses that scale up as they level, while not having them become overpowered in the top end compared to Core.
Characters are generally more able at every level, but not as customizable in higher levels.
Damage threshold has been revised to better scale upwards in level as character's face harder-hitting enemies.
Damage Threshold
- All characters have a new statistic, known as a Damage Threshold (DT). On your character sheet, display this value underneath your total Hit Point (HP) value.
- This statistic is equal to the character's total Fortitude save, twice their character level, their armor bonuses, and the value of their greatest hit-die. For example, Greg the Fighter (Human Fighter 6) has a damage threshold of 35; 5 from his fortitude save, 12 from double his level, 8 from his heavy armor and 10 from his hit-die value. Levin the Wizard (Elf Wizard 6) has a damage threshold of 22; 2 from his save, 12 from his level, 2 from his armor and 6 from his hit-die.
- Enhancements and bonuses that add to your damage threshold:
- Fortitude
- Character level, doubled
- Size bonus
- Armor bonus
- Value of Greatest Hit Die
and also
- Natural Armor bonus
- Profane armor bonus
- Sacred armor bonus
- If a creature has more than two classes, with differing hit dice, the creature may choose the more favorable hit die value for their damage threshold. This includes racial hit-die, if applicable.
- Damage reductions apply to damage rolls before they are compared to the damage threshold of the creature being attacked. E.g. If the attack does not bypass the damage reduction of the creature, then you may consider the creature's damage threshold to be higher by the value of their damage reduction (because it has reduced the incoming damage). Damage reduction still applies to HP damage, if it is not bypassed.
- Example: If a character has a damage threshold of 22, and gains DR 2/-, then you may consider his damage threshold to have risen to 24, while still applying the damage reduction value of 2 to HP loss as well.
- Creatures larger than Medium size gain a bonus to their damage threshold. This size bonus is +5 for Large, +10 for Huge, +20 for Gargantuan and +50 for Colossal. This bonus is applied or removed, as appropriate, if a creature changes size.
- You can improve your damage threshold with the feat Improved Damage Threshold, increasing your damage threshold by 5. This feat may only be taken once.
- Attacks that deal massive amounts of damage can impair or incapacitate you regardless of how many hit points you have remaining. Your damage threshold determines how much damage a single attack must deal to reduce your combat effectiveness, or in some cases, kill you. When a creature takes damage in excess of his damage threshold, he moves along a metric known as the Condition Track, reflecting injury and combat fatigue. There are five levels on the condition track. A creature may only move up or down the condition track in single steps. The penalties of the condition track also modify a creature's damage threshold.
>> Normal State (no conditional penalties) <<
> -1 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -1 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks.
> -2 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -2 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks.
> -5 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -5 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks.
> -10 penalty to all defenses and saving throws; -10 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and skill checks; move at half speed only.
> Helpless; unconscious or disabled.
- Display your condition track status underneath your DT value, on your character sheet. The easiest way is with a series of ✘'s or ✔'s, up to 5. You may also use a specific die as a counter, or a series of tokens, whatever your preference is.
- You can improve your condition in combat by spending a Standard action, that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, to move up the condition track by one step. Magical healing also improves your condition by a single step.
- A character's condition penalties return after the end of combat, as they merely put off the exhaustion for a few moments. The lowest conditional penalty gained by a creature in combat above the Helpless condition persists outside combat until healed.
- A DC 15 Heal Check can remove one conditional penalty, taking one hour per step. A character would need four hours of assisted healing to move from the fourth condition to the third condition, three to move from the third to the second, two from the second to the first, and one to become normal. For every 5 points the Heal check exceeds the DC, the recovery time decreases by a half-hour. A character cannot take a 20 on this check.
- Resting normally for eight consecutive, uninterrupted hours removes all conditions affecting a creature and returns it to its normal state (except if it had been lowered to the last step of the track, Disabled; magical or mundane assisted healing is then required to begin moving up the condition track). The spell Lesser Restoration can move a creature one step up the condition track; Restoration and Greater Restoration remove all conditions and return a creature to its normal state.
These changes, I'll admit, are inelegant and merely a way to force the Damage Threshold rules to work in PF. However, they are now functional throughout a character's career.
Holy cow thats a lot of rules changes. Have you play tested this yet?
I am really curious how this works out...
Also if you havent run it yet I am wondering if you have foreseen all of the balance issues this could cause, have you considered a more modular approach, phasing in a few changes at a time?
I got eye fatigue just reading all the changes. I can imagine trying to play by them being a bit of bumpy ride. I dont see any thing that overtly catches the eye as game breaking...but the cumulative affect and the complexity of some of these changes is reason enough to give pause.
Unless I'm missing something, the only way you can do that is to spend one feat to make one skill trained.Ouch.
I know that you feel like this will homogenize characters, so I'll do a comparison for you. I'm going to stat out the skill blocks of your Rogue/Master Spy, at 10th level, in my skill system and your skill system. (I'm sorry, I don't know how to optimize rogue skills, but I'll do my best -- hopefully the intent comes through).
I'll then do the same for a fighter of the same level. Stat blocks are, assuming all racial and enhancement added: 20, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10.
RANDLE THE CORE ROGUE
Rogue 7, Master Spy 3Str 10 (0)
Dex 20 (5)
Con 10 (0)
Int 14 (2)
Wis 12 (1)
Cha 12 (1)Skill points available: 56 from Rogue, 18 from Master Spy, and 20 from Intelligence = 94.
** spoiler omitted **...
If everybody gets more skill points, but there are less skills to choose from then the rogue's advantage of having a lot of skills goes down, but the fighter's benefits greatly from this.
The ranger already had good skills, and just got a lot better. Why would I ever play a rogue from a mechanical point of view? Their skills don't matter as much, they are not as good in combat. Trapfinding might require a one level dip if you use traps in your game, but that is about it. That is why I mentioned a while back that this was bad for the skilled classes.
The bard might not be as valuable either.
Holy cow thats a lot of rules changes. Have you play tested this yet?
I am really curious how this works out...
Also if you havent run it yet I am wondering if you have foreseen all of the balance issues this could cause, have you considered a more modular approach, phasing in a few changes at a time?
I got eye fatigue just reading all the changes. I can imagine trying to play by them being a bit of bumpy ride. I dont see any thing that overtly catches the eye as game breaking...but the cumulative affect and the complexity of some of these changes is reason enough to give pause.
I'm beginning playtesting with the Basic changes, Feats changes, Parry, Skill changes and Damage Threshold.
I've made the WBL table to freeze the equipment-based CR.
Separate playtest:
Armor as DR
Changes in Iterative Attack
Basically I am aiming to have this system lift the bottom end of characters' skill abilities by giving them a set of base bonuses that scale up as they level, while not having them become overpowered in the top end compared to Core.
Characters are generally more able at every level, but not as customizable in higher levels.
Once again I ask what problems were caused at your table with the current rules?
If everybody gets more skill points, but there are less skills to choose from then the rogue's advantage of having a lot of skills goes down, but the fighter's benefits greatly from this.
The ranger already had good skills, and just got a lot better. Why would I ever play a rogue from a mechanical point of view? Their skills don't matter as much, they are not as good in combat. Trapfinding might require a one level dip if you use traps in your game, but that is about it. That is why I mentioned a while back that this was bad for the skilled classes.
The bard might not be as valuable either.
That's true, but as I said before, I'm trying to bring up the bottom end of skills and skillfulness.
The Rogue will still always be the most skillful, as he has the most Trained skills and Class skill, and has other unique talents -- such as being the only class to Disable Devices; no other class has that option, ever, unless they take a Rogue level, as you say.
You have the incentive from the mechanical point of view for the same reasons you play any character: they have class features outside of their skills. I don't mean to sound cross, I'm just trying to speak plainly.
Do you foresee any pitfalls with this system, other than what you see is a lack of incentive to choose more skilled classes?
Once again I ask what problems were caused at your table with the current rules?
Not being able to do things if they didn't train them. Being 14th level and in a situation where you need to climb, and you literally cannot climb worth a damn, is just bizarre to me.
I felt that the old system did not let characters become heroic in their skills as they became heroic in their abilities -- certainly they became godlike in some of their skills, but in some they are less capable than a commoner.
In other words, charaters were great at only a few things, and passable at a few others (except for the rogue). Now, they are great at some things, good at others, and always capable at everything else, and the Rogue still has the most "best at"'s.
- This statistic is equal to the character's total Fortitude save, twice their character level, their armor bonuses, and the value of their greatest hit-die. For example, Greg the Fighter (Human Fighter 6) has a damage threshold of 35; 5 from his fortitude save, 12 from double his level, 8 from his heavy armor and 10 from his hit-die value. Levin the Wizard (Elf Wizard 6) has a damage threshold of 22; 2 from his save, 12 from his level, 2 from his armor and 6 from his hit-die.
- Enhancements and bonuses that add to your damage threshold:
- Fortitude
- Character level, doubled
- Size bonus
- Armor bonus
- Value of Greatest Hit Die
and also
- Natural Armor bonus
- Profane armor bonus
- Sacred armor bonus
fort save+(level doubled)+armor bonus+hd value +nat armor
Using a ranger(level 10) in the DPR thread
10 + 20 + 8 + 1= 49 threshold
undead favored enemy and PA or DA,rapid,many
+3 Falchion
Full Attack Single Attack
DPR: 64.35 37.05(minimum 48 with a melee focused build as opposed to a switch hitter)
All I did was drop the 2 random feats for vital strike(feat chain), and use the guide archetype. If I were to actually changed the stats to focus on melee, and use the 2-handed version(APG) I am sure I could at least hit 50 on average.
Of course this is a PC build. An NPC would probably be dropped to around 45 DPR per hit, but then again an NPC build would be more focused so maybe it would not do so bad. In your game world if Vital Strike has that type of value more npc would have it logically.
Have you done any math on the monsters in the bestiary to see if they can stand up, and not have the threshold kick their butts?
I used the target statistics for average damage from the Monster Creation guide, here
So yes, totally normal NPC's are meant to sometimes hit PC thresholds, and PC's are meant to hit NPC thresholds more often than that.
A threshold-focused hitter could do more, of course, just like they do more against HP. And remember that Damage Threshold is only for single attacks, not a round or full-attack's worth of damage.
More thoughts on Armor as DR:
Metagame Analysis:
It’s pretty easy to see the effect of this variant system: attacks hit more often, but do less damage. What does that really mean?
Low-level combat tends to be less dangerous for armored characters. Although their ACs are lower (and thus their chance of being damaged is higher), this is more than offset by the reduced damage suffered by attacks. A typical goblin warrior, for instance, can barely hurt a character wearing splint mail, because the armor’s damage reduction entirely negates the damage dealt by an average hit. Even though the goblin will hit more often, it will likely end up dealing less total damage over the course of a typical battle.
A mid-level fighter in full plate armor must still be cautious when fighting an ogre, but his armor reduces the ogre’s average damage by 25% while only increasing its chance to hit by 20%—a net gain for the fighter.
At higher levels, however, the balance shifts back in favor of monsters that deal large amounts of damage per hit. When facing a Huge earth elemental, a fighter in full plate will be hit 20% more often (due to the 4-point reduction in AC), but his 4 points of damage reduction now only reduces his opponent’s average damage by less than 17%. Advantage: elemental. Thus, high-level characters must be more careful when battling monsters with extreme damage-dealing capability.
- Unearthed Arcana
So yes, totally normal NPC's are meant to sometimes hit PC thresholds, and PC's are meant to hit NPC thresholds more often than that.
A threshold-focused hitter could do more, of course, just like they do more against HP. And remember that Damage Threshold is only for single attacks, not a round or full-attack's worth of damage.
That was one attack. :)
By that time Improved Vital Strike would be available. When you get to monster that do 3d6, and the best Vital Strike feat takes it to 12d6+strength+ power attack. That thresh hold might not hold up.
More thoughts on Armor as DR:
** spoiler omitted **
How can a fighter be more careful other than to pump his AC. It is job to stand up front and take the big hit, but the big hit make take him out of the fight.
If I am a caster type I have my melee brute soften the fighter up with thresh hold damage then I start targeting will saves. If he is at a -5 he either running away or stabbing his team's caster in the face, most likely.PS:I had a thresh hold targeting PC in SW Saga over a year ago. That is how I found out my theory worked in real application. I also had another player with a high damage sniper. Nobody made it past 3 rounds. Even if they had hp left they were knocked out.
In general I don't have the problems w/ the normal rules that you do. So I won't comment on it. Your skill system is very similiar to the one in 4th ed...and is the one reason why I won't play 4th ed..but that has to do with play style and such.
There are a couple of things I see as problem rules wise. In either visualizing or balance wise.
1) Int to reflex save...I just don't know how this would work? I can see the others...this one just makes no sense to me.
2) Initative bonus being either int or dex or wis. I am good with dex(reflexes) wis(perception and such)...but int? again smart does not equal faster.
Also have two of the stats being spellcasting stats based seems to me as a little too good for spell casters.
3) Ranger....you said to open up options and such yet it seems you are saying Ranger must be the Skirmisher archetype...that sorta seems to me atleast limiting options.
How can a fighter be more careful other than to pump his AC. It is job to stand up front and take the big hit, but the big hit make take him out of the fight.More thoughts on Armor as DR:
** spoiler omitted **
Yes, that is my intention. It is dangerous to get hit, all the time, no matter what.
If I am a caster type I have my melee brute soften the fighter up with thresh hold damage then I start targeting will saves. If he is at a -5 he either running away or stabbing his team's caster in the face, most likely.
Cross-class synergy! Awesome, right?
Unless you don't think so, then I'm not sure how to convince you. As you can see, I do believe that this will only add to the game in a positive manner.
If we are of irreconcilable opinion on this, I wish to know whether or not this system is viable, from a balance perspective. Do you have any ideas about this?
PS:I had a thresh hold targeting PC in SW Saga over a year ago. That is how I found out my theory worked in real application. I also had another player with a high damage sniper. Nobody made it past 3 rounds. Even if they had hp left they were knocked out.
Yes, that is intentional within the inclusion of the threshold rules. I do want it to be possible to drop things in three rounds, no matter the total amount of health they have.
There are a couple of things I see as problem rules wise. In either visualizing or balance wise.
1) Int to reflex save...I just don't know how this would work? I can see the others...this one just makes no sense to me.
2) Initative bonus being either int or dex or wis. I am good with dex(reflexes) wis(perception and such)...but int? again smart does not equal faster.
Also have two of the stats being spellcasting stats based seems to me as a little too good for spell casters.
3) Ranger....you said to open up options and such yet it seems you are saying Ranger must be the Skirmisher archetype...that sorta seems to me atleast limiting options.
1 and 2, I understand your confusion. I suppose it could be explained by saying, "he is able to see all possibilities and move exactly the right ways to avoid danger."
Because I gave mostly nice things to melee throughout the houserules, I wanted to give something to the casters too.
Ranger: spells and an companion on par with the druid would wind up being far too powerful. Nerfed that combo to a HP damage only role, for balance reasons.
Yes, that is my intention. It is dangerous to get hit, all the time, no matter what.
Are you going to change monsters feats to take advantage of the new rules since they would have evolved differently in your world due to the changes? This is more an issue of immersion than balance. I think vital strike just became a must have feat.
Cross-class synergy! Awesome, right?Unless you don't think so, then I'm not sure how to convince you. As you can see, I do believe that this will only add to the game in a positive manner.
If we are of irreconcilable opinion on this, I wish to know whether or not this system is viable, from a balance perspective. Do you have any ideas about this?
The players won't be happy about this being used against them. Stack on a few negative levels. Whether this is a good idea or depends on how you run as a DM, and how your players play against NPC's. My players are lethal so I have to be just as lethal in return to provide a challenge. I really don't know how any of the rules will affect your game except for the thresh hold which is still not holding up by the math. Anything not based on math I can't say much about because I don't know what current issues you have with the rules on an actual level, as opposed to a theoretical level.
Yes, that is intentional within the inclusion of the threshold rules. I do want it to be possible to drop things in three rounds, no matter the total amount of health they have.
The issue here is the boss fights, which player generally like to be the things that are epic in nature. If you play high level games. I can assure you that the 3 rounds I mentioned will possibly go down to 1 or 2 rounds. In the SW game we did the 3 round thing to the most powerful guy on the field, and then took care of the mooks who were not much of a threat anyway. If you do the 1 boss vs an entire party thing I am not giving the boss more than one round.
You may not have noticed, but your second threshold attempt worked at level 6, but by level 10 it was already falling losing again. If you add more stuff to it then it will be almost impossible at low levels, even on a crit, and I am guessing standard attacks will take it apart at level 15.This will not help your 3 round idea or the cross synergy idea unless you are trying to hold those off until a certain level. If you are trying to hold it off until a certain level I would let that level be known and see if a formula can be worked out from there. It will also help to know what levels you generally play to. Right now it seems very hard to make the thresh hold apply from level 1 to 20, and it might take someone who is better at math than us to come up with it.
What is your idea of balance, and have you discussed this with your players?
Before I respond to other design questions, I'm going to play-test all of this separately and then together.
Results will be posted as soon as I have them, but please do not hold your breaths.
Wraithstrike, thank you for all of your time and criticisms, they are invaluable to me. Also, thank you for your patience.
Also a thank you to enrious and Purplefixer for taking the time to post and comment.