As creatures of the Outsider type, do tieflings (and aasimars, ifrits, oreads, sylphs, and undines) have the class skills of the Outsider type as class skills? It sounds silly to put it that way, but the rules are silent on the issue of non-humanoid PC races and creature type class skills.
No, the player replaced those defaults when they went down the path of a playable class at level 1 along with anyone else. Skills/proficiencies are in line with their chosen class.
They are still 'outsiders', sure, but they are PC Class outsiders.
Is that view supported in the rules? Your class doesn't change your creature type (barring a few specific instances) and your creature type determines your class skills and proficiencies just as much as class levels.No, the player replaced those defaults when they went down the path of a playable class at level 1 along with anyone else. Skills/proficiencies are in line with their chosen class.
They are still 'outsiders', sure, but they are PC Class outsiders.
Tiefling Characters
Tieflings are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial HD. They have the following racial traits.
Is that view supported in the rules?
Yes.
Someone else posted this but then took it down...
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Is that view supported in the rules? Your class doesn't change your creature type (barring a few specific instances) and your creature type determines your class skills and proficiencies just as much as class levels.No, the player replaced those defaults when they went down the path of a playable class at level 1 along with anyone else. Skills/proficiencies are in line with their chosen class.
They are still 'outsiders', sure, but they are PC Class outsiders.
Those are skills and proficiencies for racial HIT DICE. Not races. A Balor gets them, a tiefling does not. Class skills don't appear out of nowhere. Racial traits may give a skill bonus, but even those don't give class skills. Class skills are determined by class, and a racial hit die uses the race as the creature's class. A tiefling Wizard has a d6 HD, BAB = 1/2 wizard level, 2+INT/level skill points, skills off the wizard class skill list, and good will saves. It does NOT have a d10 HD, BAB = wizard levels, 6+INT/level skill points, the outsider class skills (except those on the wizard list), or good reflex saves.
What's tripping you up is the difference between being a creature of a certain type and possessing racial hit dice of a certain type. A tiefling is an outsider, but possesses no racial HD of the outsider type.
If tieflings got the outsider class list, than every single humanoid would have the humanoid class list (Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession, Ride, and Survival). This is simply not the case for the standard starting race humanoids, nor is it for tieflings and the outsider list.
Because your skills, feats and proficiencies are granted by your HD or Levels in a certain class or NPC monster type.
The Lich has 11HD (or 'levels') to give it the skills etc.
There is a difference between a racial ability (darkvision, racial skill bonuses, movement modes) and racial proficiencies. They went into this some depth a while back.
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Skill points/ranks are granted by Hit Dice, yes. But a designation of class skills is not - it's granted by either class or creature type (or something else such as a feat, racial ability, etc.).
The creature types are very clear in that simply having that type designates what your class skills are - you have that type, those are your class skills, even if you have no natural Hit Dice to grant you skill points to spend on those skills. You can have class skills without any skill points (such as how mindless creatures do).
To put it more simply - all Outsiders have X skills as class skills. Tieflings are Outsiders. Ergo, tieflings have X skills as class skills.
Outsiders get class skills from the Outsider racial HD. Maybe it was misworded in the Outsider type, but humans do not get the Humanoid type class skills without Humanoid HD, so tieflings do no get the Outsider type class skills without Outsider HD.
Only if they have Outsider Hit Dice. Which the tielfing, asimar, and other "native" Outsiders do not. The skills are solely by class description, and whatever the direct race entry would grant.This is true per weapon proficiencies as per James Jacobs' quote, linked to above.
I can't find anything saying that's the case for what skills are class skills, however.
There's nothing stating that you need at least 1 racial Hit Die for a creature type's list of class skills to "kick in" for a creature that I'm aware of. You have the type, you have its class skill list, and it's applied to your skill selection even if they come from a class (since the source of a class skill doesn't matter, you still gain the +3 bonus).
Then how about this, why don't humans, elves, dwarves, etc, have Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Profession, Ride, and Survival as class skills?
So here is the question, why do you think it(what james jacobs said) would apply to weapon proficiencies, but not class skills?
So here is the question, why do you think it(what james jacobs said) would apply to weapon proficiencies, but not class skills?Because he was talking about weapon proficiencies, not class skills.
That is not what I am asking, I am asking why you think weapon proficiencies are treated differently than class skills?
Some interesting debate throwing a lot of doubt onto the rules... soon becoming RAI territory.
Throwing a FAQ flag up on this one on the OP.
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I see you are correct, the type itself states the creature has X class skills.Thanks. I appreciate the kind acknowledgment. :)
It pained me deeply to admit I was wrong. :)
I believe it's a case of poorly worded rules not being in line with the intended application. It should have been stated that all class-related racial features are determined by racial HD and not creature type.
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I see you are correct, the type itself states the creature has X class skills.Thanks. I appreciate the kind acknowledgment. :)
I think this would also apply to skills. You don't get anything the teifling entry does not give you specificallyI talked about that above. I'm willing to cede the point - since it's silly to argue with the designers about their own game - regarding weapon proficiencies. Class skills are another matter; James wasn't talking about them.
Honestly, your strict reading is right. The problem is the wording in Bestiary isn't well-designed for PCs. The honest intent is that you get class skills either from racial hit dice or class. For what it's worth, I've built vampire NPCs and given them only class skills from the class I used (though I think the template might specify doing that). RAW, you might be right, which is something that needs to be addressed because I do not believe it is the intent.
House rule that you get skills from class only. Unless you're dead set on it. Not like Tiefling is in organized play, so house rules are all that's needed right now. It's a problem though, for characters wanting to play nonstandard races that the section in the back is unclear. I believe its intended for Racial HD, though it does not explicitly state. That's the same logic with the saves, the BAB, and the proficiencies. But I'm still not sure the RAW 100% denies my interpretation. Class skills are a function of hit die makeup. A rogue/wizard gets class skills from both, but only once the character has at least 1 level, and therefore 1 hit die in each. It's the same with race. These aren't bonus class skills, to get class skills you need the HD, that's how things work in Pathfinder. That's what a class skill is.
If you haven't yet, hit the FAQ button on your first post.
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In this case, I'm going by the rules as written, not to try and be a stickler but because that was honestly my interpretation of what the rules were trying to convey. Of course, it's entirely possible that I'm wrong and that it's just poor wording, with the intent being that 0-HD creatures of any type never gain their creature type's class skills. But in the absence of any sort of ruling from the guys who made the game (and thus know what their intent was on this particular issue), I personally feel more comfortable going with what's in the book on this particular issue.
Perfectly legit. Like I said, Tiefling is home game only, anyway. If you're the GM, awesome, go for it. If not, steer your GM here so she can get a feel for where things stand. Always like it when my players inform me on why they feel a vague rule works a certain way.
Also, as others have said, to anyone else lurking or reading here, FAQ the initial post. This is a great candidate.
Class skills, like weapon and armor proficiencies, are something that must be learned. The tiefling spends no time (i.e. Hit dice) mastering the outsider class skills.
You are presented with person after person, most of whom have many years and editions under their belts, telling you "this is how it is". What makes you right, and all of us wrong?
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Probably this.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.
There is no clause stating 'Outsiders with a character class use their class's skill list instead.' Thus, they get the Outsider class skills on top of their regular class skills. Since Tieflings are Outsiders, they get those class skills.
I can totally agree that was not what was meant, but that is what it says.
Tiefling Characters
Tieflings are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial HD. They have the following racial traits.
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma: Tieflings are quick in body and mind, but are inherently strange.
Darkvision: Tieflings see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Stealth checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Tieflings can use darkness once per day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability equals the tiefling's class level.
Fiendish Resistance: Tieflings have cold resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, and fire resistance 5.
Fiendish Sorcery: See above.
Languages Tieflings begin play speaking Common and either Abyssal or Infernal. Tieflings with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, and Orc.
The above lists what benefits tiefling characters get. You'll note that darkvision is listed. This is also listed under outsider, so it should be assumed, right? They repeat it because this is what you get, no weapon and armor proficiencies, no class skills.
I tend to agree, this unfortunately looks like a situation of RAW vs RAI.
I can see that perhaps logically a tiefling as an outsider is just better at these skills and would still gain them. This is what happens with Bestiary races though.
EDIT: To be honest I don't see this as intended. I would definitely not allow it in my games. Tieflings are good enough as is.
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The above lists what benefits tiefling characters get. You'll note that darkvision is listed. This is also listed under outsider, so it should be assumed, right? They repeat it because this is what you get, no weapon and armor proficiencies, no class skills.
If that were true, there would be no need to mention in the Orc subtype that half-orcs do not get light sensitivity.
If that were true, there would be no need to mention in the Orc subtype that half-orcs do not get light sensitivity.
The above lists what benefits tiefling characters get. You'll note that darkvision is listed. This is also listed under outsider, so it should be assumed, right? They repeat it because this is what you get, no weapon and armor proficiencies, no class skills.
One could argue that that is because you are comparing something specific (a subtype that is used by 2 creatures) compared to general (a creature type that encompasses more than 2 dozen creatures in one book alone); in other words the old general vs. specific rule. But that would be a weak argument.
Probably this.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.There is no clause stating 'Outsiders with a character class use their class's skill list instead.' Thus, they get the Outsider class skills on top of their regular class skills. Since Tieflings are Outsiders, they get those class skills.
I can totally agree that was not what was meant, but that is what it says.
I had the same thought for weapons until I was corrected. It seems the teifling RAI only gets what was listed. They do need to errata it though.
I guess a good place to look is the teifling itself.From the bestiary-->
Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
If you look at the Council of Theives AP that also seems to be the case.
Male tiefling fighter 2
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8
Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
Total of 6 ranks
Reverse engineered skills
Climb +3, (+3 strength mod)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, (Int mod +1, 1 rank, +3 class skill)
Knowledge(engineering) +5, (Int mod +1, 1 rank, +3 class skill)
Perception +2, (+1 wis mod, 1 rank)
Profession (miner) +5, (Wis mod +1, 1 rank, +3 class skill)
Stealth +2 (+2 stealth)
Note that throughout the entire book the skill points being gained from the outsider type is not supported. If it was once or twice I might have 2nd guessed, but an entire AP should lend to the fact that certain things are intended to be based on HD, even if the wording in the book is bad.
PS: This fighter was cheated out of 2 ranks it seems. I only used 4 of his 6 to duplicate his stat block, and a sorcerer in the first book need more ranks than what they were allowed.
I only posted a low level teifling because it is earlier to reverse engineer, but the higher one yeild the same results.
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We're not talking about skill points wraith, we're saying Tieflings get those skills as class skills by the way the rules are written. The CoT tiefling you posted should have a +3 Class Skill Bonus to Perception according to the creature type rules, making his Perception a +5 instead of +2.
His point is that the fact they don't shows that the RAW are a mistake. The RAI are shown pretty clearly, as this is a paizo-published product. If all tieflings were supposed to get these skills as class, they would have given them. It's a pretty good point, actually.
And since Tieflings are never in organized play, demonstrating the RAW being wrong by showing the publisher doesn't read them that way, you've got pretty good cause to ignore the RAW and go with, what is pretty obviously now, the RAI
His point is that the fact they don't shows that the RAW are a mistake. The RAI are shown pretty clearly, as this is a paizo-published product. If all tieflings were supposed to get these skills as class, they would have given them. It's a pretty good point, actually.
And since Tieflings are never in organized play, demonstrating the RAW being wrong by showing the publisher doesn't read them that way, you've got pretty good cause to ignore the RAW and go with, what is pretty obviously now, the RAI
This is what I was trying to say.
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I've never said you should hold to the letter of the RAW. Just that the RAW says they should get the class skill bonus on those skills.
How many 3rd edition Monk NPCs didn't have the -4 non-proficiency penalty calculated into their unarmed strike attack bonus? It still didn't change the fact that they were not proficient with their unarmed strikes by the RAW.
Just because the publisher makes a mistake thinking the rules say something does not mean the rules say that something.
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I've never said you should hold to the letter of the RAW. Just that the RAW says they should get the class skill bonus on those skills.
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Just because the publisher makes a mistake thinking the rules say something does not mean the rules say that something.
Then we are in agreement! Huzzah! Cake for all!
Dammit... now I want cake. Also it's way too late, why am I still posting?
I've never said you should hold to the letter of the RAW. Just that the RAW says they should get the class skill bonus on those skills.
How many 3rd edition Monk NPCs didn't have the -4 non-proficiency penalty calculated into their unarmed strike attack bonus? It still didn't change the fact that they were not proficient with their unarmed strikes by the RAW.
Hopefully a blanket rule gets made concerning 0HD creatures.
PS:I agree that the monk should have have been errata'd to gain proficiency with unarmed strikes. I can see a new player getting caught up on it if he did not have an experienced player to explain such things. I think the publishers threw it in the common sense basket and moved on, which I don't see as a good idea. Considering the level of rules lawyering I have seen in since my WoTC days I am surprised I did not see it on the WoTC boards as a recurring argument.
edit:got rid of needless text.