This is a great adventure for evil PC's (stop who/whatever is preventing the church of hell from subjugating the orphans), and based on that alone might get my vote.
At this point, let's dampen down the playstyle discussion and steer this thread back to assessing the adventure proposal. Everyone's made some really good points and I think the conversation has been worthwhile and educational, but there's no need to belabor it any further.
Thanks guys,
--Neil
I agree.
I voted for this! I think others should too, because it goes in such a different direction than the other 3 entrants. There was one other proposal I really enjoyed, so ultimately it came down to a gut check, but it's a breath of fresh air to ask your party to actually do some investigative work in order to save the day.
I love your opening setup. Love it, love it, love it. Streets litered with war-orphans and the only people feeding them are the church of Asmodeus; ruling them with an iron fist, of course, but that's to be expected. This is my favorite way to use this sort of organization, not merely as cackling cultists, but as a dignified, stabalizing element of society: the most infuriating thing about Asmodeus is the idea that the world needs him.
But, wait, what's this? The children are scorning them? And some kind of peasant boogyman is paying them back for their unkindness? Awesome!!
The way you've framed your 'villain' is really clever. You give us a crappy situation (priests of Asmodeus are jerks, but at least the kids are fed)... then introduce the adventure's 'mystery' element as something opposed to that. That's going to grab PC attention.
Initially, I think many groups will debate long and hard over whether or not to help the evil church, who are after all doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Once you introduce this mysterious 'Lady', who is apparently feeding and protecting the orphans better than the devil-worshipers, I think that most PCs will agree that that's worth looking into (and most players *I* know would want to ally with that force, whatever it is, because it's better than Asmodeus). But no matter how you slice it this is a robust scenario that's going to support some really great roleplaying.
How you frame individual encounters (thoughtfully and open-ended) tends to be very good, but as James Jacobs said, it's a mistake to make the Church of Asmoedus a choke-point for the plot. On the other hand, while you tend to assume that's who the PCs are working for, I actually don't see any point where that's really necessary. In other words, it looks like I could run this mystery just fine even if the PCs shun the church altogether; they'll just have to uncover everything themselves. As a DM, however, I just have to wonder how much I'm going to have to "wing it" there, and how much the adventure is actually going to support me.
The payoff at the end was a little disappointing and a little confusing. Like I said, as a player I'm going to want to know who is feeding the kids all of a sudden, and whether they're a viable alternative to supporting some devil church, and whether he/she/it is allied with the murderer (or one and the same!). Basically it sounds like "The Lady" is a goodguy (or someone I like) and "Kasteron" is possibly a badguy, but as a player I'm worried and intrigued by the fact that the kids are lumping the two of them together.
And in the end, it almost seems too easy. Kasteron is.. a cool monster, but still just a monster. And the face behind "The Lady" is really just a saintly orphan woman (Freia); we have no idea how she's managed to keep the orphans from going hungry, but presumably she'll keep doing so in the future. The PCs meet the lady, kill the monster, and that's that.
I think it's going to be very interesting when Aleric goes after Freia, but that's beyond the scope of this adventure. Which isn't a bad thing. Stand-alone adventures are often integrated into original campaigns, and I think it's awesome when such an adventure can contribute to the campaign as a whole.
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Jerall,
I salute you for this adventure proposal. You've got a lot of marvelous stuff here that I like a lot, and I'd love to see an investigation-focused adventure.
But I've got a lot of concerns about this proposal, because I don't think you've managed what you're aiming for. I don't think you've presented a clear, compelling, playable investigation adventure. I love what you chose to write about; I love the style and structure you tried to achieve; but my impression from this outline is that you haven't demonstrated the crucial ability to bring that structure out in practice.
I'm going to give a very detailed critique here. I apologize for the negative comments (and for dwelling on the negative). Please accept my assurances that the reason for these comments is because I love so much of what you've done here. I want to see you succeed, I want to see your interest in investigation adventures and poignant social interactions find its way into Paizo games, and I want to see your ideas done justice. Sadly, I don't think that writing this module as pitched will accomplish that. But at the very least, you've got a serious foot in the door - so I can hope that any comments of mine you find useful will be put to good use on your future pitches. May there be many :D
I've read over the pitch several times; here's the main issues I had.
But what you've given us can be boiled down to "the orphans are acting strangely; go see what's up with that." I don't think that's a compelling investigation question - the PCs have no stake in it (and probably prefer the orphans outside of Asmodeus's clutches), it doesn't pose a specific question (it poses a generic "something happened, find out what", which means the PCs don't know what the story is about until they've solved the mystery, i.e. the end), and the only clear avenue of investigation it prompts is "well, why don't we just ask them?".
I think you would have done far better to focus the investigation on the murders. "Who is murdering Asmodean child-catchers?" is a much better investigation question. It also provides a neat, natural solution for the "PCs allying with Asmodean church" issue: first, the Asmodeans ask for their help solving the murders; the PCs can freely accept or refuse. Then when it turns out it's not just child-catchers being murdered, but also random innocents, the PCs realize this might be worth looking into - and that the church, at the very least, has valuable info and a piece of the puzzle. Their interest in the case might get them to work with the church, where the direct request wouldn't.
Note also that fighting Kasteron serves as a much more appropriate conclusion to the question "who's killing people?" than it does "what's up with the orphans?".
If you don't like that focus, you could try something more related to "what's up with the orphans?" - e.g. "We think an evil death-cult is recruiting them instead of us!", etc. Something that gives the characters some initial leads and a sense of significance.
Possibly you see speaking to the orphans as more difficult than I've presented here, but A) you didn't present it as such in the proposal, and B) I have difficulty crediting that it would be difficult to speak with orphans in the set-up you've described.
Note also that the ease of getting such information also dings the credibility of the premise that the Asmodeans can't.
- I don't find it plausible that there be a town rumor concerning an orphans' rhyme. If people were in any way worked up about it, or even slightly interested, they should be able to figure out almost everything the PCs are supposed to through the whole adventure. At the very least, they should be able to say more about it than "there's something interesting about it" - why is it interesting and unusual?
- I find it completely absurd that you spread out the PCs discovery of the rhyme over the whole game. The orphans know the rhyme. The PCs should have little trouble learning it all. It isn't a secret. Withholding the full verse is artificial, contrived, and - to a player - extremely annoying. (A better approach might be to have a more cryptic rhyme, well-known but little-understood, whose significance is gradually uncovered.)
- The different segments of the rhyme are written in vastly different styles. They seem disconnected to me - I have difficulty buying that as a single song.
Breadcrumb trails like this just don't do it for me. As a GM or a player. You would have to hide the burned down house, you have to hide the rhyme, you have to hide older orphans. Investigations are good, but they need to be non-linear, and not feel like your pulling teeth at every turn. I see the party following the GM's leads around, and not really buying into the investigation. As they wander, and they will as there is no real sense of urgency here, he has to throw clues at them (some times violently) to keep them involved.
Consider the sequence of events here. I'm intentionally exaggerating what I see as the flaws here, in order to make them absolutely clear - please don't think I'm trying to mock you :)
- Asmodean Cleric: You are good at catching orphan cutpurses and/or killing hobgoblin bandits! Orphans are acting strangely and not joining our devil-worshipping church. Please find out why. Party: Ummmm... why would we do that?
- Asmodean Cleric: Also, some priests of ours have been killed. And a baker. Party: Any idea why? Cleric: No. Party: Is that connected to the orphans? Cleric: Not as far as I know. Party: Any leads? Cleric: He's... kinda burnt and fire-y? Party: So what you're saying is "not really."
- Party: Orphans, what's going on with you? Orphans: We've created a local mythology and brought it to life; things are much better for us, except Kasteron is killing people. Party: OK. Is there... ummm... anything we can do about that? Orphans: I dunno. You should talk to Freia.
- Freia: The new orphan saints are my responsibility/fault. You should go to the burnt house. Party: Why? Adventure Proposal: I wasn't entirely clear on this point. Either because Freia's sending you intentionally to fight Kasteron, or else she's just being arbitrary and telling you where the next part of the adventure is.
- Climatic Battle
Here's what I'm trying to get across here: you're leading the PCs around by the nose. The steps to solving the mystery aren't steps in the PCs investigation; they're steps they're told by others to take, and they don't make much sense on their own. You're trying for an investigation adventure, but what you've written doesn't leave any of the investigation in the PCs' hands. Nor does it cohere into a solid investigation story - it's merely revealing bits and pieces of the story in sequence. I don't get the impression that this adventure will encourage the players to be involved or interested.
Whew! That took me a while.
Let me say one more time that your work this contest impressed me a lot, and I'm overjoyed to see you in the Top Four. In this adventure, I think you had a wonderful, compelling central concept - a city of orphans bringing a harsh protector into being - that definitely has huge potential for intriguing, dramatic, and exciting gameplay. I think you saw that, I think you aimed for that, I think you brought a lot of great stuff to the table. I also think you've still got a ways to go - and I don't mean the Paizo module development process. I'm crossing my fingers for you, and I'll be watching out for your future steps on that path - official Superstar or not.
Wishing you lots of luck, and even more importantly - lots of success!
--Ziv
For the purpose of reviewing this proposal, I shall consider the quartet of adventurous succubi Anthea, Byrria, Cynthia and Daria to be in the area. Whilst it is at least unwise (if not outright foolish) to take any succubus for granted, I am sufficiently familiar with the four of them to be certain of their likely general reactions to any circumstance detailed here. As a matter of good manners, here are a few details regarding the four:
Anthea:
Byrria:
Byrria is a fan of the demon lords Aldinach and Areshkagal.
Cynthia:
Owing to a misunderstanding during a recent escapade when she was dealing with some daemons whom absolutely no-one was going to miss (not even their nominal masters back in Abaddon) Cynthia has acquired a paladin of Erastil familiar (Also Known As a ‘husband’). She generally leaves her familiar at home, moping around his estates in Brevoy, but the empathic link does occasionally bother her. However he is too Lawful and she is too proud for either of them to take well to suggestions (whether helpful or otherwise) that their union might in any way have been a Mistake.
When it comes to religion, Cynthia is fascinated by the deity Nethys in his destructive aspect.
Daria:
Anthea, Byrria, Cynthia, and Daria are either in or travelling through the area for the purpose of shopping expedition. How likely are the initial events presented to interest them and if not sufficiently enticing what might it take to engage their involvement?
As it happens the four would be exceedingly happy to be travelling with a merchant caravan discussing trade (and trying to make useful contacts with half an eye on being able to get good prices on tasselled cushions in the future). An honest-to-gods ambush which allows them to win the gratitude of the merchants (and to protect valuable goods from being carried away by disrespectful hobgoblins) is something that they will jump at. The hobgoblins may be somewhat unnerved by their enthusiasm.
So just what is likely to happen once four succubi do get involved?
Although the foursome will be happy to be nice with the merchants, it's hard to see what that has to do with what comes afterwards. The incident with the orphan pickpocket will certainly briefly engage their attention, and once they run him down for his cheek (difficult to evade pursuers who can pop into the ethereal whilst you have to go over or around walls) they will likely still be in too good moods following their adventures with the merchants to be inclined to give him more than a 'don't do that to us again'.
When the topic that the young pickpocket and his friends have run away from an orphanage overseen by the Church of Asmodeus comes up, the succubi will shrug - good for them. They certainly aren't going to go running to the Church of Asmodeus about this or try to force Warrim or any of his friends to go back. If the topic that someone gruesomely murdered a cleric of Asmodeus gets mentioned, the succubi might want to track the one responsible down, but only to offer him their congratulations and a 'keep up the good work'.
The only further action they might take is if Cynthia (due to her familiar) gets anything resembling a prick of conscience and decides that as a project to keep her familiar occupied it might be an idea to round up all the runaways and remove them to Brevoy for him to look after. Rounding up the orphans in question and smuggling them out of Logas when the senior cleric of Asmodeus concerned is a low ranking relatively inexperienced flunkey is elementary intrigue stuff for four succubi however...
What about the aftermath?
Well, the foursome will have two useful Druman merchant friends, Kalvik and Dalith. And Cynthia may have found something to keep her familiar busy.
The succubi are unlikely to seek to initiate any kind of direct action, violent or otherwise against Kasteron or Cataline, although if they can get away with it with relatively little bother, fixing the Asmodean cleric, Aleric, up for anything on the way out of town may be too big a temptation to pass on.
Predicted Extraneous Body Count:
Do Kasteron's activities stop if the succubi remove all runaway orphans from Isger's streets? That's not very clear. If so, the extraneous body count on this mostly intrigue/fact-gathering mission is going to be non-existent. If he keeps on going, then the extraneous body count is going to climb with the passing of the months and years. Since everyone in Logas avoids Cataline's house anyway, it's unlikely that Cataline being left active will contribute significantly to the death toll.
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus provides the much needed viewpoint of a CE aligned (very advanced) succubus. The following review pays assiduous attention to fairness, balance, and logic. That said, these are Abyssal notions of those concepts, wheretofore today ‘fairness’ is an installation commonly employed by someone with an over-the-top posh accent for smelting metals or toasting lightly flammable enemies, ‘balance’ is a small blue furry creature with a penchant for snacking upon ninjas, and logic is a special form of magic which irrefutably proves a succubus is always right.
+1 - there's just something about imagining a adventuring quartet of succubi that sets of wonderful and visceral imagery. I, for one, am very happy and not at all surprised that the multiple of succubus is succubi
...I've got a lot of concerns about this proposal, because I don't think you've managed what you're aiming for. I don't think you've presented a clear, compelling, playable investigation adventure. I love what you chose to write about; I love the style and structure you tried to achieve; but my impression from this outline is that you haven't demonstrated the crucial ability to bring that structure out in practice...
Couldn't have said it any better.
And yet, I still think the overall structure of the adventure will work.
IMO of the 4 proposals this is the one that mixes an interesting location, a not too tread out plot, playability at 4th level and an incentive to roleplay the most.
As with all investigations it can be tricky as hell, nevertheless (or better: excatly because of this) I would like to know what you + paizo can do to this uncut gem.
This is the entry I will vote for!
...I've got a lot of concerns about this proposal, because I don't think you've managed what you're aiming for. I don't think you've presented a clear, compelling, playable investigation adventure. I love what you chose to write about; I love the style and structure you tried to achieve; but my impression from this outline is that you haven't demonstrated the crucial ability to bring that structure out in practice...Couldn't have said it any better.
And yet, I still think the overall structure of the adventure will work.
IMO of the 4 proposals this is the one that mixes an interesting location, a not too tread out plot, playability at 4th level and an incentive to roleplay the most.
As with all investigations it can be tricky as hell, nevertheless (or better: excatly because of this) I would like to know what you + paizo can do to this uncut gem.
This is the entry I will vote for!
Glad to hear it, its my favorite too. The thing is that the proposals themselves will go through a big editorial process that shapes the adventure fully. I think *this* one will blossom nicest.
As with all investigations it can be tricky as hell, nevertheless (or better: excatly because of this) I would like to know what you + paizo can do to this uncut gem.
This is the entry I will vote for!
Glad to hear it, its my favorite too. The thing is that the proposals themselves will go through a big editorial process that shapes the adventure fully. I think *this* one will blossom nicest.
I'm all in favor of voting for the proposal you think will be best after editing. I think that's the way to go - after all, we want the best final product.
My own concern is that Jerall might not yet be ready to write a solid, involving, coherent mystery - which is perfectly fair; they're notoriously difficult. And that the Paizo development/editing process will have bigger worries than improving the fundamental narrative structure - wordcount, rounding the module out with more combat, etc. Part of what's great about this proposal is that it's very different than what Paizo usually does, so I'm not confident that the Paizo editorial process is what's going to improve and perfect that particular, unique aspect of the proposal. So I'm less hopeful than you about the final product.
But I'd dearly love to be proved wrong :)
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
,
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
aka primemover003
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As a proposal there's a lot here an editor with a little vision (which I believe Paizo has in abundance) can easily turn into a great low level adventure.
As Isger's main schtick is about being a crossroad for commerce starting off the PC's with merchants makes sense. Personally I'd involve the main hook as the KISS reason they're guarding the merchants caravan and said merchants are stopping in Logas for a short stay to trade where the PC's are free to get involved in whatever trouble adventurers tend to get into. It also allows you to have a nice simple opening combat encounter which always gets the table focused. Goblinoids being the most common foe in the region reinforces the campaign flavor of Isger.
Once in town the pickpocket encounter works far better if when the chase ends the PC's are confronted by Asmodean Orphan catchers who rudely and forcefully claim the orphan is under their jurisdiction. Boom, another combat encounter where the Devil worshipping church is painted as the bad guy. Killing or defeating the patrol puts the PC's under the eyes of the Law, which is of course the Church of Asmodeus' role in Isger. The PC's can learn about the murder of the High Priestess and several orphan catchers, as well as the innocents as they are quickly pegged as scapegoats for the murders by the Church. Patrols of Hellknights and/or Golden Erinyes nuns could stalk the street under the command of Brother Aleric seeking them out.
The PC's can either shelter with the runaway orphans learning more of the rhyme and mythology or they can "turn themselves in" and Brother Aleric can give them the mission to clear their names or else face some serious problems with the aforementioned Hellknights/Devil Nuns. Either way the get sucked into the mess giving them plenty of motivation to solve the mystery.
--It's a hard Vrock life for us...
Hey Jerral,
Investigative adventures are hard to do, and in some ways harder to write a proposal for. I’m not going to talk about combat vs. non-combat but I do want more challenges in the adventure. It does seem a little too straightforward and the secrets a little too easy to discover. Also this is me, but I’d like the conclusion to be a little stronger, with it clearer that the heroes have ‘won’. I like that you went for something different in the adventure, and focused on investigation.
You hit the canon right on the head and chose a piece of Golarion that you can definitely make your own, and the themes of the adventure are interesting, orphans, kids’ songs, imaginary friends made real and so on.
Good luck in the voting.
The polls are closed and it's only a long 15 hours until the big reveal. I'm not sure if I'll be able to respond to everything before the voting results are announced, but let's see where we get.
Location: I only settled on my final concept on the Sunday before submission. It was quite a stressful time, sitting next to heap of crumpled-up ideas. I spent most of the time leading up to Sunday, trawling the boards and greater net, trying to see which adventure types and locations the voting audience might get behind and potentially offer something new. In the end, I picked 4 possible locations: the Sodden Lands, the Molthune/Nirmathas border, Molthune proper, and Isger. Then I considered 3 adventure types: treasure hunt/race, military/mercenary and investigative. I had to put my Molthuni military ideas aside, because I couldn't get my idea to suit 4th level. The Sodden Lands were put aside for similar reasons.
I chose Isger, because the country's history, including the effect specific past events must have had on the populace, were all too good to pass up. I'm not sure if I got that across in the end (maybe I could've if I cut the first encounter for some extra words), but it's something I would like to explore further, given the chance.
I'll try to type up a bit more before the results are revealed - especially the balance between combat/non-combat.
Encounters: Yes, in the proposal as written, there is very little scope for combat encounters. I didn't really intend to write combat opportunities out of the end product. When it came down to it, I decided to focus on detailing particular NPCs a bit (I do have more ideas than those listed in the proposal), rather than how the PCs would find and reach them. Perhaps a mistake, as it may have been better to detail two encounters, rather than list a number of orphans. If memory serves, the Goblinblood Wars ended more than a decade before Golarion present time, allowing for a large range of orphan ages - including those that grew up to be brigands, those that joined the Hellknights or Sisters, or even those that grew up to be successful merchants, tradesmen etc. With such a variety of age-groups, political and religious views, I believe that there is plenty of scope for conflict, violent or not. Ideally, I'd like to see that adventurers are given the opportunity to explore Logas, interacting with adults, adolescents and children, piecing a localised myth together, bit by bit.
Using the Church as an adventure choke point was a mistake. I should have included a greater variety of potential 'quest-givers' in the proposal. I owe one of my proof-readers a drink, I believe, since he was spot on about potential alignment conflicts regarding the Asmodean church and a potential party. Additionally, looking back, I did make the church too friendly in the proposal. Hopefully, I'll be given the opportunity to inject some grim dark into the church and its treatment of the orphans.
The Rhyme: Splitting the rhyme up was another mistake. It would have been better to present it all up front. However, I'd still like there to be a final secret verse, even unknown to the children, that the PCs only uncover just before the final battle. Ryan raised an interesting point about thinkers and the rhyme. Originally, I wanted to use the rhyme to provide players with clues as how to defeat Kasteron. I thought that how-to-kill clues wouldn't sit well with voters and removed them. I'm going to need to think a bit about how to better use the rhyme to give the thinkers something to puzzle over - and reward them for it. I have some ideas, but still have to mull them over a bit.
This adventure could make a good PFS scenario, a lot of changing the adventure hook would be needed but it could work.
I agree with Matt, I thought the adventure felt about right for the scope of a PFS session.}
It sounds like you have a good handle on what you need to improve it...
I really hope you CAN take this adventure and adapt it to PFS because I´d like to see it in that final state.
Mostly the problems I had with it were regarding the fragility of the linear plot-structure, that it was a ´investigate-y´ adventure with really just a linear trail of crumbs, and problems with both a seemingly madnatory attitude towards Asmodeans AND the ´villain´, who I just didn´t find very villainous. That, and I didn´t get much sense of dramatic action... Having OPTIONS to take more direct combat routes vs. more conversation and alliance-working is great, I just think both options should be there.
Congratulations for making it this far, and best of luck in your future RPG work!
Dear Jerall Toi,
Congratulations on reaching the top four of this year's RPGSuperstar contest. Going over your presentations in this year's contest, I find that in earlier rounds you showed us a pair of gloves (named after a strange mist) Which May Or May Not Be Usable From The Ethereal, a berserk bird-faced scrapper, a petty religious fanatic who arranges 'accidents', and a golem manufacturing enterprise which has the benefit of Being Conveniently Positioned For Regular Grocery Deliveries.
This round you presented us with an amusing and useful diversion for a quartet of Adventurous succubi - even if the way that that pans out isn't quite how you appear to imagine that the average group might play through events. I note that this proposal received a good deal of discussion (by the standards of this round), though in the end the voters have decided that they'd like you to write a Pathfinder Society scenario, not a module; still one or two observers have been kind enough to suggest that with a bit of reworking it might be possible to adapt this proposal to such a format so this isn't the end of the road for it by any means...
Hoping that you have found all my posts on your entries thoughout this contest Suitably Helpful.
Yours,
Ask A RPGSupersuccubus.