Not to intrude upon the way you play your game, even if a Solar gets to be a creature with an evil alignment, he still retains all the subtypes he had before the change...that's the point. Even if a devil would suddenly or, after several decades turn good, he would still retain his evil subtype. Outsiders are like that...i think that it is even said like that in the bestiary, i am sure i read it somwhere.There is an example of that in AoW.
A creature actually has to become another creature type to lose the subtype by the rules.
Of course he did say at his table. :)
As I recall, outsiders that change alignment also change subtypes.
More importantly, the template that is applied to the solar that reflects his corruption/fall states such a change, if any.
I did not see a template mentioned.
Is it a particular BBEG from a particular 20 level 3.5 AP?
There is a difference between Type and Alignment. A character race paladin might start Lawful Good, but he doesn't have the Good or Lawful subtypes. A subtype indicates a feature that is rooted in the core physical makeup of the creature, not its outward behavior or alignment. A solar is formed in the outer planes of stuff that is inherently Good, no matter what he then does with his existence, just as an elemental is made from its element without regard to alignment. If a solar falls from grace, it will have an alignment of evil, but barring some immense underlying change - almost to the level of a reincarnation - it will retain the Good subtype. Big 'G' Good and small 'e' evil.Do you have a reference for this one? Makes no sense to me, but I can believe some designer somewhere decided that it Would Be So.
However, it makes no sense to me whatsoever. A creature is both Good and Evil? I can understand if someone wants to create a creature with multiple personalities and have one Good and one Evil, but both Good and Evil at the same time?
There's certainly no precedent in the alignment table, and the rare items and or conditions that change alignment don't add an alignment to a creature, they change its alignment - if a paladin uses something that pushes him a step towards Evil, he's not both LG and LN ... he's plain 'ol LN and loses his paladinhood.
A very logical argument, but it's all based on the opinion that there is "good stuff" in the outer planes that "good creatures" are made from. That's a GM decision about how their multiverse works, not anything written in any of the descriptions of good or evil creatures.
I see no reason that a good creature that turns to evil would not be evil - in fact I see lots of reasons for that to happen. What I'm looking for is a RAW reference, since Hama alluded there is such a thing.
Edit: Found it. Analyzing data. :)
Devas: "Astral devas are usually created by deities from the souls of good mortals, though some souls spontaneously transform into astral devas without the intervention of a deity."
Created from GOOD SOULS. Literally made from "goodness" here.Solars: "Unlike other angels, most solars are created from an amalgam of good souls and raw divine energy to directly serve the gods, but an increasing number of these powerful angels have been “promoted” to their existence as solars from lesser creatures like planetars or devas. A few rare and powerful good souls ascend directly to the status of solar."
Their own free will makes them evil, but they CANNOT shed the fact that they are inherently made from "goodness" of some variety. This is why their subtype and alignment can possibly "ping" in opposition on the detection spells.
Well, since all we have to go on is "corrupted", it could also imply that something or some being has contaminated the soul-goo the solar is composed of. Doing so would affect the alignment subtype(s).
Paladin smiteth mightily, DR ceases to be relevant. After all, you only need one ...
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Got interrupted, here it is.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/fallenArchons
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Small off-topic question. Someone above mentioned an alchemist with two weapon fighting, haste and rapid shot as a nuker.
Haste says that it doesn't stack with 'similar effects' and gives the speed weapon property as an example. I was always under the impression that rapid shot was a similar effect in that it gave an additional attack a round. Is that correct, or do the two stack?
Small off-topic question. Someone above mentioned an alchemist with two weapon fighting, haste and rapid shot as a nuker.
Haste says that it doesn't stack with 'similar effects' and gives the speed weapon property as an example. I was always under the impression that rapid shot was a similar effect in that it gave an additional attack a round. Is that correct, or do the two stack?
The two stack, haste does not stack with the speed weapon property. Rapid shot is different,it applies a penalty for one thing.
Got interrupted, here it is.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/fallenArchons
Excellent discussion, thank you very much. And thankfully, it goes along with how I was thinking of interpreting it based on the subtype rules for the Good and Evil subtypes.
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A Halfling Antipaladin
Smite Good + Power Attack + Channel Smite + Imp Vital Strike
Using a Medium Greatsword (-2 to attacks)
During the 1st attack, damage should be roughly
6d6 (IVS) + 15 (Power Attack) + 40 (Smite Good) + 70 (Channel Smite + Unholy Champion)
Which gives us: 6d6+125pts of dmg, a decent amount of damage.
Now we crank out his weapon, which we will add his Spirit Weapon Ability to.
+5 Medium Greatsword, with Outsider (Good) Bane +1, Conductive +1, Speed +3
Spirit Weapon +6 total
Brilliant Energy Weapon +4, Outsider (Angel) Bane +1, Outsider (Extraplanar) Bane +1
So against our Solar the weapon is +11 does 6d6pts of 'Bane' damage and +70pts from Conductive & Unholy Champion.
So our total (not counting Str... he is a halfling after all... :)
12d6 + 206pts of dmg (12d6 avg 42pts).
So approx 248pts of damage in the first hit and the Solar has to save or be banished, which with Brilliant Energy Weapon only misses on a 1.
Solar is AC 15 vs this guy.
If the Antipaladin actually gets a full round of attacks off... I think you can kiss the Solar's butt good bye.
Actually you are wrong on his AC. Brilliant energy only ignores non-living matter, so he doesn't lose his natural armor bonus. Thus the Solar still has a 30 AC.
What I don't get is why you make the character a halfing. I don't see where that provides any benefit. I must be missing something.
just go with the pure barbarian mounted charger, or if you want to spice it up the 11 barb/9 cavalier. There is nothing this guy cant take in a charge. If you go to the lvl 12 dpr thread, you will see that the level 12 mounted charger is rocking 440 DPR at that level, and that should be even higher if he is level 20. So evil solar is gonna die, if you get to charge. Therefore you should also max out his initiative.
thats my 2 cent atleast
if your DM was a bit smarter though, he would have just picked the terrasque, as there exist no known method of actually killing it, its kinda given that u wouldnt be able to do it in one round.
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Actually you are wrong on his AC. Brilliant energy only ignores non-living matter, so he doesn't lose his natural armor bonus. Thus the Solar still has a 30 AC.
What I don't get is why you make the character a halfing. I don't see where that provides any benefit. I must be missing something.
Doh! You are correct I misread Brilliant Energy. Although the AC would be 34 (since the Solar gets a +4 deflection vs evil). Still much easier to hit than 44 AC.
Under the Halfling favored class bonus for Paladin in the APG it applies a bonus of +1/2 lvl to the Paladin's Lay on Hand's ability for healing or harming.
The Antipaladin is an alternate class so it is eligible for the favored class bonus, and the Touch of Corruption is modified by anything that would normal modify Lay on Hands. So at level 20 that bonus is +10.
[Edit'd for content]
Under the Halfling favored class bonus for Paladin in the APG it applies a bonus of +1/2 lvl to the Paladin's Lay on Hand's ability for healing or harming.
The Antipaladin is an alternate class so it is eligible for the favored class bonus, and the Touch of Corruption is modified by anything that would normal modify Lay on Hands. So at level 20 that bonus is +10.
That seems questionable to me. Touch of Corruption "is modified by any feat, spell, or effect that specifically works with the lay on hands paladin class feature." Favored class bonuses aren't any of the above. In addition, I'd question whether favored class (paladin) even counts if you take antipaladin levels. I'd think you'd need favored class (antipaladin), which has no alternate racial features.
Also, they errated it so that the weapon can't get more than a +10 bonus total, including class abilities. Which was stupid, but that is the official errata.
It's also debatable whether you can have bane on a weapon more than once.
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Under the Halfling favored class bonus for Paladin in the APG it applies a bonus of +1/2 lvl to the Paladin's Lay on Hand's ability for healing or harming.
The Antipaladin is an alternate class so it is eligible for the favored class bonus, and the Touch of Corruption is modified by anything that would normal modify Lay on Hands. So at level 20 that bonus is +10.That seems questionable to me. Touch of Corruption "is modified by any feat, spell, or effect that specifically works with the lay on hands paladin class feature." Favored class bonuses aren't any of the above. In addition, I'd question whether favored class (paladin) even counts if you take antipaladin levels. I'd think you'd need favored class (antipaladin), which has no alternate racial features.
Also, they errated it so that the weapon can't get more than a +10 bonus total, including class abilities. Which was stupid, but that is the official errata.
The thing is there is no class called the Antipaladin. The Antipaladin is an alternate verson of the Paladin, just like all the other alternates it is still considered a paladin for favored class bonus, feats, etc.
Hmm, I must have missed the errata about +10 bonus total including class abilities. Oops
[Edit - found it in the 1.1 & 1.2 errata]
The thing is there is no class called the Antipaladin. The Antipaladin is an alternate verson of the Paladin, just like all the other alternates it is still considered a paladin for favored class bonus, feats, etc.
Is it? Do you have any rule that says it does qualify? I don't have any rules that explicitly say it doesn't. But with only one published alternate class, it's hard to draw any conclusions. Are there any rogue favored class features that wouldn't make sense for the ninja to take?
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Is it? Do you have any rule that says it does qualify? I don't have any rules that explicitly say it doesn't. But with only one published alternate class, it's hard to draw any conclusions. Are there any rogue favored class features that wouldn't make sense for the ninja to take?
The thing is there is no class called the Antipaladin. The Antipaladin is an alternate verson of the Paladin, just like all the other alternates it is still considered a paladin for favored class bonus, feats, etc.
In the APG under Core Classes (pg 72) it goes into the info about alternate class features. Basically the antipaladin is an alternate with pretty much everything swapped out. You would still need to choose the core class as Paladin, and then add the alternate abilities.
Because almost everything is swapped out, Paizo printed out the class table to show where everything fits, because pretty much everything changes compared to being a Divine Defender or Hospitaler.
I haven't looked at favored abilities for the rogue/ninja because I generally only do a level or 2 dip into those classes.
Also from the Gunslinger playtest, in version 1, because they were a fighter alternate they could take Wpn Spec. In version 2 they are no longer a fighter alternate and thus no longer have access to Wpn Spec.
Now it is possible I'm reading more into the favored class bonuses than is there, but so far everything I've read points in that direction (however, I have been known to miss stuff... :)
Cheers!