Do time stop rounds count? Do you come in fully buffed or not?
I think there are two solutions taking full caster and coming in with a bunch of gated and planar bound creatures. This seems kinda dubious though.
The other solution seems to be to go with an Order of the Sword Cavalier with PA, Furious Focus, Spirited Charge, Vital Strike Chain, etc on a high strength mount and try a modified version of an charger build. If you go with a mount with pounce and a ton of attacks it can also boost your joint DPR.
Basically you need to be able to hit and kill with a single charge or maybe the cavalier's charge + x amount of direct damage from the inevitable cohort.
I'm not going to develop a full build because level 20 builds take forever but I suspect that's the best way to go since the ability to field an archer that can bypass epic DR/15 is very tricky.
Ooh, nice call with the Cavalier. I forgot they get all their damage in a single boosted attack. I'll sit down and start number crunching that up a bit later.
Time stop would be fine. I was halfway thinking a diviner wizard to autowin init and then time stop and start throwing down all sorts longer duration stuff on it.
Also, with the timestop option a question arises. Can wish still hurt someone's saves?
Not within the time stop itself, no. Greater Quicken metamagic rod on round 1 "out" of the time stop to light the critter up with that wish is perfectly fine.
Given the foe that you are facing, you're assuredly looking at customized gear and prepared spells as well - so you are looking at stuff like a counterspelling ring, greater spell immunity at a VERY high caster level ...
However ... do observe that the foe is a "corrupted" solar ... so you probably would be best built as a Neutral character with anything and everything you can manage as "omni" damage in nature, with perhaps a few aces up your sleeve for dispatching downed regenerative foes of various specific damage requirements.
An idea to consider along with the cavalier spirited charge of messy death as the arcane archer with anti-magic field. Is Leadership a valid component of this wager ?
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Well hopefully you can count on your buddies for some damage...
A alchemist throwing Force/Madness/Sticky Bombs might be a way to go.
With 36 Int (20 +5 lvl +5 inherent, +6 enhancement), Rapid Fire & Haste you can crank out 5 bombs that should have no trouble hitting a touch AC of 11. (maybe more if you do some TWF feats)
The problem is doing enough damage. Even with 5 Force bombs you are only doing 50d4+65 or approx 190pts and 5-14pts of Wis dmg and 5 saves DC 33 Ref or be knocked prone. (2nd rd would be 65pts of dmg from sticky so it would at least cancel the regen and then some).
Add in Leadership for a cohort Alchemist also throwing bombs...
Lvl 17 with similar feats/dicoveries and you can have another 5 bombs at 9d4+10 or approx 162pts and 5pts of Wis dmg.
Add in +10pts of dmg if you are within 30' from Point Blank Shot and the avg damage comes out to 362pts...
Hopefully your buddies can do a point or two of damage... :)
Cheers!
If you can build however you like should be rather easy. So 20th level guys right, and 3 of them?
Well a solar's weakness is it is NOT immune to stunning.
If you can use a gun slinger it is a YAWN, walk in the park with their current design. Stunning Shot, true grit on it, every shot is auto stun.
If cannot use gunslinger use dust of sneezing and choking.
Two PCs both with leadership (15th level rouges with dastardly finish)
One being a wizard to cast quickened dim door(everybody 10' away) and toss the dust of sneezing and choking on the other side of solar just covering him. Even if he makes his save he is stunned for 5d4 rounds.
20th level PC rogue and two cohort rogues step up and coup de gras. Fort save in the upper 40s is easy. Needs natural 20s or dies.
With gunslinger he shoots and stuns solar (within 100' it is vs touch AC) Other party member dim doors the two cohort rogues up to the solar and they coup de gras with dastardly finish.
If need be the mage can quicken greater dispell and a cohort use the dust.
I'm pretty sure he's talking Solo level 20 vs a Solar.
1 PC + 1 Cohort maximum.
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Play a rogue with a high initiative, dust of choking and sneezing, and the Dastardly Finish feat.
Throw the dust in his face, causing him to be stunned for a minimum of 5 rounds. Then move up and coup de grace him as many times as you can with your x4 crit weapon.
This trick will kill anything not immune to stun or coup de grace automatically.
EDIT: Using dust of choking and sneezing is no more lame than him using an "evil" solar.
Just make sure you max out your 'crit' weapon and that your Rogue has decent Str and/or enhancement gear for Str, after all you still need to punch thru DR 15/epic & evil... :P
Just make sure you max out your 'crit' weapon and that your Rogue has decent Str and/or enhancement gear for Str, after all you still need to punch thru DR 15/epic & evil... :P
Yep. With a +5 weapon and +5 modifier to damage from other sources (from Str?) you should be able to do 60+ damage reliably, which means he can't save but for a natural 20. Even then, you'll have 5+ rounds to finish him. If at first you don't succeed...
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Just make sure you max out your 'crit' weapon and that your Rogue has decent Str and/or enhancement gear for Str, after all you still need to punch thru DR 15/epic & evil... :PYep. With a +5 weapon and +5 modifier to damage from other sources (from Str?) you should be able to do 60+ damage reliably, which means he can't save but for a natural 20. Even then, you'll have 5+ rounds to finish him. If at first you don't succeed...
Yep, except I think the bet was to finish off the solar in 1 round. So while the rogue could solo the solar, he would need a bit of help to do it in 1 round, like a wizard who throws the dust and then uses quickened dim door to get the rogue in position for the coup de grace.
Yep, except I think the bet was to finish off the solar in 1 round. So while the rogue could solo the solar, he would need a bit of help to do it in 1 round, like a wizard who throws the dust and then uses quickened dim door to get the rogue in position for the coup de grace.Just make sure you max out your 'crit' weapon and that your Rogue has decent Str and/or enhancement gear for Str, after all you still need to punch thru DR 15/epic & evil... :PYep. With a +5 weapon and +5 modifier to damage from other sources (from Str?) you should be able to do 60+ damage reliably, which means he can't save but for a natural 20. Even then, you'll have 5+ rounds to finish him. If at first you don't succeed...
Not too hard with a cohort.
It's debatable as to whether dimension door would end the rogue's turn as well. Best not to give the GM any more ammo than he already has.
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Well hopefully you can count on your buddies for some damage...
A alchemist throwing Force/Madness/Sticky Bombs might be a way to go.With 36 Int (20 +5 lvl +5 inherent, +6 enhancement), Rapid Fire & Haste you can crank out 5 bombs that should have no trouble hitting a touch AC of 11. (maybe more if you do some TWF feats)
The problem is doing enough damage. Even with 5 Force bombs you are only doing 50d4+65 or approx 190pts and 5-14pts of Wis dmg and 5 saves DC 33 Ref or be knocked prone. (2nd rd would be 65pts of dmg from sticky so it would at least cancel the regen and then some).
Add in Leadership for a cohort Alchemist also throwing bombs...
Lvl 17 with similar feats/dicoveries and you can have another 5 bombs at 9d4+10 or approx 162pts and 5pts of Wis dmg.Add in +10pts of dmg if you are within 30' from Point Blank Shot and the avg damage comes out to 362pts...
Hopefully your buddies can do a point or two of damage... :)
Cheers!
Actually, even better, make the Alchemist a 1/2 Orc and take the bomb damage increase for favored class bonus... 50d4+115 gives approx 240pts of damage, add the now 1/2 Orc cohort for another 45d4+90 approx 202pts of damage and the Solar explodes! And even with Regen will be down for 5 more rounds (not counting Sticky Bomb damage).
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Alright, I'm being slow..
How do you throw something that effects all in 20' area 'when cast into the air'?
I mean, is it a case of 'you throw it into the air and *poof* it magically spreads 20' or is it more like actual-dust which is thrown into the air and, like dust does, spreads to fill the area of effect?
I ask because if it's the former you could sling the pouch into an area etc
If it's the latter then you'd need to find a way to ensure the proper (safest/most effective) dispersal of the dust.
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Either way, if you're using it in melee, would it catch everyone in 20' including the user?
O_o
See, at-this-moment-in-time, I could see the dust/pouch, being a cursed item, quickly exploding when thrown into the air to effect everyone.
I could also seeing it acting like actual dust and the description is describing the typical method of applying it's non-cursed counterpart, the Dust of Appearance.
(..which would lend credence that the dust is akin to 'real-world' dust and would need an appropriate method of throwing/using that would cause it to spread.)
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So aye, long story shory - does the cursed dust go 'Poof! Phwoomph' when cast into the air, engulfing everything in 20' 'by magic' - or is the effect the result of someone using what they believed to be the Dust of Disappearance in the 'typical manner'?
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 7th
Slot none; Weight —
Description
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing.Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 3d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. Those who succeed on this saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
*Panicked concerns*
I've always envisioned it as being centered on the user. Just have your cohort use it while just within 20 feet of the Solar while you stand back on the opposite side of the solar (just out of range).
You then coup de grace the Solar. Done in one round.
*Panicked concerns*I've always envisioned it as being centered on the user. Just have your cohort use it while just within 20 feet of the Solar while you stand back on the opposite side of the solar (just out of range).
You then coup de grace the Solar. Done in one round.
How cruel! >_<
Hmm.. this is assuming a mentally dominated/undead/robot cohort right?
I realise the 3d6 Con loss is only at DC15 to negate but even so, gonna take a special kinda cohort to take that risk.
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On the other hand, assuming both sides aren't plebs, each would have done their homework on the other. In which case, the Int 23 Wis 27 creature is probably going to be aware of such a trick if it's one of the few/more viable tricks that could kill it - and take steps to avoid/negate the attack.
Standing up wind from the party so dust gets blown into their faces, carrying a scarf/breathing mask or some kinda device, g.dispel magic on the pouch, flying above and out of range etc.
..and there's the question of how the cohort will go first. I guess it could be built to have an insane initiative modifier but... well, that's the problem with Leadership/tricks relying on certain interpretation of a feat that's designed to be open to DM interpretation - i.e some would argue that there is no guarantee that said cohort is optimally built to the task at hand.
..and also the 'Who controls the cohort, what would they do' etc
Hmm..
Personally any solution relying on Leadership/cohorts would, to my mind, be too reliant on the DM's call/judgement - too many unknowns that must be assumed for things to work in a way that may change from table to table/Dm to DM.
Inquisitor could use the dust. Stalwart makes them ignore the whole thing, if they succeed in the save. With Luck domain they could practivally guarantee the success (also Con 19 would be enough in case they fail the save).
A +5 bane weapon can bypass DR/Epic. Play a fighter with a +5 good outsider bane long bow firing greater slaying arrows. It will save on a 2 but not on a 1. You auto confirm all threats with a long bow and have a X4 crit.
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A +5 bane weapon can bypass DR/Epic. Play a fighter with a +5 good outsider bane long bow firing greater slaying arrows. It will save on a 2 but not on a 1. You auto confirm all threats with a long bow and have a X4 crit.
The longbow would need to be +5 good outsider bane, unholy longbow so you can also bypass the DR 15/evil. (actually a +4 weapon with bane would also work).
A +5 bane weapon can bypass DR/Epic. Play a fighter with a +5 good outsider bane long bow firing greater slaying arrows. It will save on a 2 but not on a 1. You auto confirm all threats with a long bow and have a X4 crit.The longbow would need to be +5 good outsider bane, unholy longbow so you can also bypass the DR 15/evil. (actually a +4 weapon with bane would also work).
Ah, you're right. Still doable.
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Hmmm..
It can cast Wind Wall.
Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.
Tho I guess if we're winning the initiative...
..it doesn't seem to have much on the enemy detection front, so (seemingly) no real tricks it can use to guarantee it wins the initiative.
Ah, you're right. Still doable.A +5 bane weapon can bypass DR/Epic. Play a fighter with a +5 good outsider bane long bow firing greater slaying arrows. It will save on a 2 but not on a 1. You auto confirm all threats with a long bow and have a X4 crit.The longbow would need to be +5 good outsider bane, unholy longbow so you can also bypass the DR 15/evil. (actually a +4 weapon with bane would also work).
Not necessary for it to be good. A +5 weapon automatically overcomes alignment-based DR. See the PRD about DR here.
This is a little-known gem that the Pathfinder folks added about DR, making it much less onerous than it used to be.
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So... one of my buddies is running a level 20 one shot pathfinder game next week. He and I like to create fun and powerful builds and I playfully claimed to be able to one round any monster he could pull out.
You said you could one-round anything the DM could pull out. You lost this bet the moment you made it. For everyone else, I call your attention to the "one-round" portion of the OP. 'Cos there's lots of good advice about how to fight it, but most of you are saying things like "it should last no more than 5+ rounds" or the like. If it lasts more than a single round, the OP has lost.
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Use an Anti-paladin and crank his cha and str to the max.
A solar, even a corrupted solar still retains his good subtype. Thus, with antipaladin's smite good ability, you get a + 40 bonus to damage, then you take channel smite as a feat and that adds additional 60 damage to the swing. Use a greatsword and greater vital strike for 8d6 points of damage, and of course, deadly stroke if you can...but i think the last thing is a fighter feat unortunately...
Actually, even better, make the Alchemist a 1/2 Orc and take the bomb damage increase for favored class bonus... 50d4+115 gives approx 240pts of damage, add the now 1/2 Orc cohort for another 45d4+90 approx 202pts of damage and the Solar explodes! And even with Regen will be down for 5 more rounds (not counting Sticky Bomb damage).Well hopefully you can count on your buddies for some damage...
A alchemist throwing Force/Madness/Sticky Bombs might be a way to go.With 36 Int (20 +5 lvl +5 inherent, +6 enhancement), Rapid Fire & Haste you can crank out 5 bombs that should have no trouble hitting a touch AC of 11. (maybe more if you do some TWF feats)
The problem is doing enough damage. Even with 5 Force bombs you are only doing 50d4+65 or approx 190pts and 5-14pts of Wis dmg and 5 saves DC 33 Ref or be knocked prone. (2nd rd would be 65pts of dmg from sticky so it would at least cancel the regen and then some).
Add in Leadership for a cohort Alchemist also throwing bombs...
Lvl 17 with similar feats/dicoveries and you can have another 5 bombs at 9d4+10 or approx 162pts and 5pts of Wis dmg.Add in +10pts of dmg if you are within 30' from Point Blank Shot and the avg damage comes out to 362pts...
Hopefully your buddies can do a point or two of damage... :)
Cheers!
This is probably your best all-purpose bet. To add to what W. John said, you can also take the Two-Weapon fighting feats for 3 more bombs / round, and rapid shot for one more beyond that, at a total cost of -4 to all your attacks, but they're touch attacks anyway. So that's 4 more attacks, bringing you up to 9 bombs. Madness is only useful on the first 2-3 bombs, because it goes down in effectiveness after each hit. So I'd say throw 3 madness bombs (at 8d4 force), then switch to regular bombs (at 10d4 force). You can also take the Eternal youth Grand Discovery and say that you're venerable for +3 to all your mental stats and no penalties (much better than awakened intellect). That brings you up to 39 int. I'd suggest starting at 19 instead of 20 and putting those points elsewhere, just because you don't get anything else for it.
So now we're up to 3x(8d4+24 hp & 1d4 wisdom) + 6x(10d4 +24). All of which can crit, because you're making attack rolls. So pick up improved crit (bomb) to make them 19-20/x2 (although keep in mind that only 1d4+24 and the wisdom damage actually get doubled).
Assuming they all hit (as they should) and one crits (as is likely, since 1/10 will crit), that comes to 85d4+240 & 3d4-2 wisdom damage. On average, that's 452.5 damage & 5.5 wisdom damage, with an additional 225 damage the next round. If you're within 30', add +1 to each bomb, for +10 damage overall. The wisdom damage will hurt his DCs if he survives to cast a spell. It might be worth skipping altogether (get 6d4 more damage), and instead making one of the spells a dispelling bomb (lose 10d4+24, but you get a chance to dispel a buff). If so, make that your first bomb, but it's probably not worth it.
You can also pick up poison bombs as a replacement to the madness bombs. Each bomb lets out a cloudkill, which would do 1d4 con damage (DC 24 for half). He'll always make the save until his con drops significantly (he's got a +29 save against it), but you'll still be adding 9d2 con damage to his hp loss. That's an average of 13.5 con lost, which would be almost +7 mod, and he loses 22 HP per mod he loses. That's another 154 damage.
The only hard part will be getting in range. For that, you might need a UMD check high enough to use a scroll of time stop. Time stop, walk up to be in range, then delay until the moment the spell ends, at which point you throw all those bombs.
Edit: I say "all purpose" because it won't matter if the solar is good or evil, if it's somehow immune to fire, if it's boosted its SR even higher, what its DR is, or anything else. If you can get off a full round of bombs, It Will Die. This build has a 13% of killing the Tarrasque in the first round, and it will definitely die in the second (it may have killed you inbetween, though). Of course, the Tarrasque will regenerate back up fairly quickly and eat you, but you can drop it.
I"m a bit puzzled by the posts suggesting stun it, and then coup de grace. Last i heard stun does not mention anything about the the target being helpless
There is a feat in the APG that lets you Coup de Grace a stunned opponent as a standard action, requires +5d6 sneak attack.
Side note about the alchemist: It's really high damage, but it only gets 34 bombs a day. Throwing 9 a turn, you'll burn through that on the fourth turn. Which should be more than enough damage to kill anything, but it's very much a nova build.
There is a feat in the APG that lets you Coup de Grace a stunned opponent as a standard action, requires +5d6 sneak attack.I"m a bit puzzled by the posts suggesting stun it, and then coup de grace. Last i heard stun does not mention anything about the the target being helpless
It lets you coup de gras cowering or stunned opponents. It does NOT make that a standard action.
Time Stop. Then every round of time stop gate in a solar of your own?
It lets you coup de gras cowering or stunned opponents. It does NOT make that a standard action.There is a feat in the APG that lets you Coup de Grace a stunned opponent as a standard action, requires +5d6 sneak attack.I"m a bit puzzled by the posts suggesting stun it, and then coup de grace. Last i heard stun does not mention anything about the the target being helpless
Then what was I thinking of?
Human Barbarian 11 (mounted foury)/ Cavalier 9 (order of the sword)
-Pick a roc as mount or else leadership a to be able to take a dragonae as a mount.
-Pick boon companion (from seeker of secret) to offset the penalty to effective druid level.
-Pick the pertinent pounce and share rage and rage powers with mount rage powers and reckless rage for extra accuarcy.
-Use a +5 furios bane(outsider good) Unholy Lance
-Give your mount an amulet of migthy fists (+2 furios bane)
-Take the proper charging feats.
-Boost initiative.
Pros:
-Fly speed (through mount)
-Every high to hit.
-Can anihilate anything in a charge.
Cons:
-Poor defences
-One Trick pony
Humbly,
Yawar
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Side note about the alchemist: It's really high damage, but it only gets 34 bombs a day. Throwing 9 a turn, you'll burn through that on the fourth turn. Which should be more than enough damage to kill anything, but it's very much a nova build.
Yep, it is a nova build, but since we are only looking at being able to kill something in 1 round, the remaining turns/bombs available don't matter.
In 3.5, this is what Id do: Gate in a titan, get him to gate in a titan, who gets him to gate in a titan, etc. After an hour or so of your first turn(!) ask the solar if hes ready to give up.
Remember, gate is a calling effect, not a summoning. The only reason I say 3.5 is because I havent looked at the PF titan yet and dont know if they have gate as a SLA or not.
In 3.5, this is what Id do: Gate in a titan, get him to gate in a titan, who gets him to gate in a titan, etc. After an hour or so of your first turn(!) ask the solar if hes ready to give up.
Remember, gate is a calling effect, not a summoning. The only reason I say 3.5 is because I havent looked at the PF titan yet and dont know if they have gate as a SLA or not.
Looks like they were given greater planar ally instead in Pathfinder.
Looks like they were given greater planar ally instead in Pathfinder.In 3.5, this is what Id do: Gate in a titan, get him to gate in a titan, who gets him to gate in a titan, etc. After an hour or so of your first turn(!) ask the solar if hes ready to give up.
Remember, gate is a calling effect, not a summoning. The only reason I say 3.5 is because I havent looked at the PF titan yet and dont know if they have gate as a SLA or not.
That's good, because I had a player attempt to pull this in my Age of Worms campaign.
Use an Anti-paladin and crank his cha and str to the max.
A solar, even a corrupted solar still retains his good subtype.
Not at my table. There's no Good solars working with Asmodeus. If they fall, they're Evil, not Good.
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Not to intrude upon the way you play your game, even if a Solar gets to be a creature with an evil alignment, he still retains all the subtypes he had before the change...that's the point. Even if a devil would suddenly or, after several decades turn good, he would still retain his evil subtype. Outsiders are like that...i think that it is even said like that in the bestiary, i am sure i read it somwhere.
Not to intrude upon the way you play your game, even if a Solar gets to be a creature with an evil alignment, he still retains all the subtypes he had before the change...that's the point. Even if a devil would suddenly or, after several decades turn good, he would still retain his evil subtype. Outsiders are like that...i think that it is even said like that in the bestiary, i am sure i read it somwhere.
There is an example of that in AoW.
A creature actually has to become another creature type to lose the subtype by the rules.
Of course he did say at his table. :)
Not to intrude upon the way you play your game, even if a Solar gets to be a creature with an evil alignment, he still retains all the subtypes he had before the change...that's the point. Even if a devil would suddenly or, after several decades turn good, he would still retain his evil subtype. Outsiders are like that...i think that it is even said like that in the bestiary, i am sure i read it somwhere.There is an example of that in AoW.
A creature actually has to become another creature type to lose the subtype by the rules.
Of course he did say at his table. :)
As I recall, outsiders that change alignment also change subtypes.
More importantly, the template that is applied to the solar that reflects his corruption/fall states such a change, if any.
Then what was I thinking of?It lets you coup de gras cowering or stunned opponents. It does NOT make that a standard action.There is a feat in the APG that lets you Coup de Grace a stunned opponent as a standard action, requires +5d6 sneak attack.I"m a bit puzzled by the posts suggesting stun it, and then coup de grace. Last i heard stun does not mention anything about the the target being helpless
The 'Death Blow' feat, 3.5 Complete Warrior.
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No, actualy that is the sucky part about being an alignment-based outsider, when you change your alignment, you may gain subtypes associated to that alignment, even if they conflict with it's old subtypes, which it retains anyway. So you can actualy meet a solar, who has been corrupted by a great evil that has good, lawful, evil and chaotic subtypes...and if you by any chance have an axiomatic and unholy weapon, you will deal an additional 4d6 points of damage and your weapon will be considered +4 more against it. Sucks to be an outsider.
Some peope though just retain the old subtypes and change the alignment. Alignment is the way a creature behaves, not a way it is constituted. And also, an evil solar still retains his DR/good and smite evil abilities. Bit, it is evil.
No, actualy that is the sucky part about being an alignment-based outsider, when you change your alignment, you may gain subtypes associated to that alignment, even if they conflict with it's old subtypes, which it retains anyway. So you can actualy meet a solar, who has been corrupted by a great evil that has good, lawful, evil and chaotic subtypes...and if you by any chance have an axiomatic and unholy weapon, you will deal an additional 4d6 points of damage and your weapon will be considered +4 more against it. Sucks to be an outsider.
Some peope though just retain the old subtypes and change the alignment. Alignment is the way a creature behaves, not a way it is constituted. And also, an evil solar still retains his DR/good and smite evil abilities. Bit, it is evil.
Do you have a reference for this one? Makes no sense to me, but I can believe some designer somewhere decided that it Would Be So.
However, it makes no sense to me whatsoever. A creature is both Good and Evil? I can understand if someone wants to create a creature with multiple personalities and have one Good and one Evil, but both Good and Evil at the same time?
There's certainly no precedent in the alignment table, and the rare items and or conditions that change alignment don't add an alignment to a creature, they change its alignment - if a paladin uses something that pushes him a step towards Evil, he's not both LG and LN ... he's plain 'ol LN and loses his paladinhood.
Do you have a reference for this one? Makes no sense to me, but I can believe some designer somewhere decided that it Would Be So.
However, it makes no sense to me whatsoever. A creature is both Good and Evil? I can understand if someone wants to create a creature with multiple personalities and have one Good and one Evil, but both Good and Evil at the same time?
There's certainly no precedent in the alignment table, and the rare items and or conditions that change alignment don't add an alignment to a creature, they change its alignment - if a paladin uses something that pushes him a step towards Evil, he's not both LG and LN ... he's plain 'ol LN and loses his paladinhood.
There is a difference between Type and Alignment. A character race paladin might start Lawful Good, but he doesn't have the Good or Lawful subtypes. A subtype indicates a feature that is rooted in the core physical makeup of the creature, not its outward behavior or alignment. A solar is formed in the outer planes of stuff that is inherently Good, no matter what he then does with his existence, just as an elemental is made from its element without regard to alignment. If a solar falls from grace, it will have an alignment of evil, but barring some immense underlying change - almost to the level of a reincarnation - it will retain the Good subtype. Big 'G' Good and small 'e' evil.
There is a difference between Type and Alignment. A character race paladin might start Lawful Good, but he doesn't have the Good or Lawful subtypes. A subtype indicates a feature that is rooted in the core physical makeup of the creature, not its outward behavior or alignment. A solar is formed in the outer planes of stuff that is inherently Good, no matter what he then does with his existence, just as an elemental is made from its element without regard to alignment. If a solar falls from grace, it will have an alignment of evil, but barring some immense underlying change - almost to the level of a reincarnation - it will retain the Good subtype. Big 'G' Good and small 'e' evil.Do you have a reference for this one? Makes no sense to me, but I can believe some designer somewhere decided that it Would Be So.
However, it makes no sense to me whatsoever. A creature is both Good and Evil? I can understand if someone wants to create a creature with multiple personalities and have one Good and one Evil, but both Good and Evil at the same time?
There's certainly no precedent in the alignment table, and the rare items and or conditions that change alignment don't add an alignment to a creature, they change its alignment - if a paladin uses something that pushes him a step towards Evil, he's not both LG and LN ... he's plain 'ol LN and loses his paladinhood.
A very logical argument, but it's all based on the opinion that there is "good stuff" in the outer planes that "good creatures" are made from. That's a GM decision about how their multiverse works, not anything written in any of the descriptions of good or evil creatures.
I see no reason that a good creature that turns to evil would not be evil - in fact I see lots of reasons for that to happen. What I'm looking for is a RAW reference, since Hama alluded there is such a thing.
Edit: Found it. Analyzing data. :)