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I attacked the party last night with mummies, ghasts and wights. I wont mention which module or the adventure path in case of a spoiler, but needless to say due to coup de grace on a paralyzed character he did not succeed on him saving throw. Luckily the oracle in the party had breath of life prepared and saved the dying character. Spells and spell-like abilities work till the duration is over, that being said should he have still had 3 more rounds of paralysis after being brought back from the dead????
I attacked the party last night with mummies, ghasts and wights. I wont mention which module or the adventure path in case of a spoiler, but needless to say due to coup de grace on a paralyzed character he did not succeed on him saving throw. Luckily the oracle in the party had breath of life prepared and saved the dying character. Spells and spell-like abilities work till the duration is over, that being said should he have still had 3 more rounds of paralysis after being brought back from the dead????
Seeing as you already coup de graced a paralyzed PC, which is a pretty nasty thing to do, id give him the break on the paralyzation. Does Paralyzing have any affect on dead or inanimate objects? No? then I say the affect ended when we was dead, and now that he is not anymore, he's also not paralyzed.
IF he was PETRIFIED (changing the makeup of his body) that would be different.
I don't have any solid rules to back this up, but I'd say that you return to life exactly as you left it. Breath of life is effectively saying "I heal you as with a regular cure spell. If that happens to bring you above the point where you died, you didn't actually die." Notably, you don't have any chance of losing spells, like you do with raise dead.
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I attacked the party last night with mummies, ghasts and wights. I wont mention which module or the adventure path in case of a spoiler, but needless to say due to coup de grace on a paralyzed character he did not succeed on him saving throw. Luckily the oracle in the party had breath of life prepared and saved the dying character. Spells and spell-like abilities work till the duration is over, that being said should he have still had 3 more rounds of paralysis after being brought back from the dead????
these are exactly the two theories of thought at the table --- but i was trying to be fair to the other player (which i didnt mention in my post) that also was coup de grace'd but with only one oracle (clerical type) in the party only one could be saved.
dude? seriosuly? why are you running around coup de grace-in everyone in a single combat, how were these party members off alone where no other live threatening target was standing and worth attacking instead?
"Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life."
You said he died by failing the saving throw. That is a death effect. Breath of life doesn't bring him back.
Had he died of the damage from the critical, breath of life may have been applied.
The dead condition states: "A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device)."
I'd say that if still in the duration for paralysis, he'd still be paralyzed.
Lastly, coup de grace is mean, so is paralysis, extra so with combining them. I'd hope the party had some forewarning that this was coming, and if so, where was the Freedom of Movement buffs from the oracle?
P.S. You also said "Luckily the oracle in the party had breath of life prepared and saved the dying character."
Oracles don't prepare spells, they have a list of known and spontaneous cast like a sorcerer.
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dude? seriosuly? why are you running around coup de grace-in everyone in a single combat, how were these party members off alone where no other live threatening target was standing and worth attacking instead?
they asked and wished for a no holds barred game, not just one time, each combat they want to be challenged to the max. they want their characters to actually worry about death. they are hardcore players and very good min maxers. they were front line fighters, they just rolled horrible saves.
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"Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life."
You said he died by failing the saving throw. That is a death effect. Breath of life doesn't bring him back.
Had he died of the damage from the critical, breath of life may have been applied.
The dead condition states: "A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device)."
I'd say that if still in the duration for paralysis, he'd still be paralyzed.
Lastly, coup de grace is mean, so is paralysis, extra so with combining them. I'd hope the party had some forewarning that this was coming, and if so, where was the Freedom of Movement buffs from the oracle?
P.S. You also said "Luckily the oracle in the party had breath of life prepared and saved the dying character."
Oracles don't prepare spells, they have a list of known and spontaneous cast like a sorcerer.
sorry my misquote --- but both coup de graces were on the same turn, one by ghasts and the other by wights ---- essentially everyone but the wizard failed the mummys despair and when it got past the wizards turn to my turn again, the ghasts and wights were in position with the two front line fighters to take full actions to coup de grace --- so the oracle could only cast once this round to save one of them. the other one was then fully dead by the time it got around to the oracle again.
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dude? seriosuly? why are you running around coup de grace-in everyone in a single combat, how were these party members off alone where no other live threatening target was standing and worth attacking instead?they asked and wished for a no holds barred game, not just one time, each combat they want to be challenged to the max. they want their characters to actually worry about death. they are hardcore players and very good min maxers. they were front line fighters, they just rolled horrible saves.
Coup de grace in the middle of combat by the baddies also means that PC needs something extraordinary to get back up. I've found use for it in combat as well, especially in large rooms where the PCs end up splitting up (some of the players in that specific example could've played a little smarter, but the fighters decided that the magic users should defend themselves).
Having the Dead condition removed by Breath of Life would only bring the character back to the condition he was in prior to being killed. Paralysis would still be in effect.
And Tarantula is correct. Breath of Life would not work in this instance. But if you choose leniancy, the above would go into effect.
Unless of course you choose to be even more lenient :P
Greg
sorry my misquote --- but both coup de graces were on the same turn, one by ghasts and the other by wights ---- essentially everyone but the wizard failed the mummys despair and when it got past the wizards turn to my turn again, the ghasts and wights were in position with the two front line fighters to take full actions to coup de grace --- so the oracle could only cast once this round to save one of them. the other one was then fully dead by the time it got around to the oracle again.
If the oracle failed the save too, he also would have been paralyzed.
Assuming he wasn't, what was the oracle doing for the round while the wights/ghasts were getting in position? I'd hope he could've popped a remove paralysis and tagged the paralyzed people to prevent a coup de grave. Assuming he didn't know that spell, at least freedom of movement one of them. Assuming he didn't know that either... why are these guys choosing to fight things they aren't prepared for?
Paralysis sucks, why do you think ring of freedom of movement is so popular for fighters/anyone once they can get it?
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Having the Dead condition removed by Breath of Life would only bring the character back to the condition he was in prior to being killed. Paralysis would still be in effect.
And Tarantula is correct. Breath of Life would not work in this instance. But if you choose leniancy, the above would go into effect.
Unless of course you choose to be even more lenient :P
Greg
thanks yall --- the game store happened to be closing up last night and chasing us out in 5 minutes so i just had to make a real quick decision.
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sorry my misquote --- but both coup de graces were on the same turn, one by ghasts and the other by wights ---- essentially everyone but the wizard failed the mummys despair and when it got past the wizards turn to my turn again, the ghasts and wights were in position with the two front line fighters to take full actions to coup de grace --- so the oracle could only cast once this round to save one of them. the other one was then fully dead by the time it got around to the oracle again.If the oracle failed the save too, he also would have been paralyzed.
Assuming he wasn't, what was the oracle doing for the round while the wights/ghasts were getting in position? I'd hope he could've popped a remove paralysis and tagged the paralyzed people to prevent a coup de grave. Assuming he didn't know that spell, at least freedom of movement one of them. Assuming he didn't know that either... why are these guys choosing to fight things they aren't prepared for?
Paralysis sucks, why do you think ring of freedom of movement is so popular for fighters/anyone once they can get it?
yes the oracle was paralyzed for 1 round, like most were from mummy #1, so he couldnt act again till right after the coup de graces, it just so happened the one he chose to save was paralyzed for 4 rounds from mummy #2. Oh they are prepared, usually more so, they would have done better if i hadnt gotten off a great iniative and if the wizard would have used fireball at the first and second opportunity. after the oracle saved the crited character i ruled that he would still need to cast freedom of opportunity upon the paralyzed pc. They are 10th level with 10th level magic item purchases.
Where are you getting the idea that a coup de grace is a death effect? It's certainly not labeled as one in the PRD.
Coup de Grace: "If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die."
Regardless of if you have 1,000HP left, or 1, if you fail that save, you're dead. I think thats a death effect.
I searched, only 2 things specifically stated they were "death effect"s so maybe I'm wrong. Slaying arrows and a 20th level bard's deadly performance. Even the assassins "Death attack" merely states, "If the
victim of such a death attack fails a Fortitude save against the kill effect, she dies."
Personally, I read anything that is "you die" without HP damage to be a death effect.
Where are you getting the idea that a coup de grace is a death effect? It's certainly not labeled as one in the PRD."Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life."
You said he died by failing the saving throw. That is a death effect. Breath of life doesn't bring him back.
It isn't a death effect, and yet it can be very similar to one.
Death ward doesn't help against it, as it isn't formally a death effect.
If he survives the damage from a coup de grace, but fails the save, then he just dies, he doesn't fall to a certain negative hp, and as such he cannot be brought back with Breath of Life.
It isn't a death effect, and yet it can be very similar to one.
Death ward doesn't help against it, as it isn't formally a death effect.
If he survives the damage from a coup de grace, but fails the save, then he just dies, he doesn't fall to a certain negative hp, and as such he cannot be brought back with Breath of Life.
If you state that coup de grace isn't a death effect, then breath of life will work. Breath of life only does not work on death effects. It works successfully if after healing, HP are > -Con score.
Where are you getting the idea that a coup de grace is a death effect? It's certainly not labeled as one in the PRD."Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life."
You said he died by failing the saving throw. That is a death effect. Breath of life doesn't bring him back.
It isn't a death effect, and yet it can be very similar to one.
Death ward doesn't help against it, as it isn't formally a death effect.
EDIT: It might actually be a death effect, but death ward doesn't work, as it is only applied to spells and magical effects.
If he survives the damage from a coup de grace, but fails the save, then he just dies, he doesn't fall to a certain negative hp, and as such he cannot be brought back with Breath of Life.
Death effects will explicitly state that they are death effects, due to spells, effects, and special qualities rendering some PCs and creatures immune to them.
For example, Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Power Word: Kill all state that they are death effects, typically as part of the school description of their spell (e.g. Necromancy [death]). Death Ward and immunity to death effects save you from these abilities, and Breath of Life will not restore you from these. However, Phantasmal Killer and the gaze attack of a Ghaele Azata are not death effects, and are labelled as such. Breath of Life can restore you after these spells and Death Ward will not block their effects.
A coup-de-grace is me shanking someone that is helpless in the neck, causing them to die suddenly from trauma and shock. Finger of Death snuffs their vital essence, killing them without any explicit reason for death (other than 'a wizard did it'). Finger of Death is a death effect. A coup-de-grace is a righteous stabbing. Breath of Life works on righteous stabbing victims.
For example, Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Power Word: Kill all state that they are death effects
Might want to re-read those spell descriptions in pathfinder. None of those spells state they are a death effect, and as such, none of those would be blocked by death ward.
Mummies wights Ghasts oh my!
What is this party consisting of besides and oracle and a wizard?
where did these things come from the walls?
it sounds like they are in a room and "poof" they are crawling with undead. No terrain advantages, door ways etc, the undead could maul the whole party?
Weird.
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For example, Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Power Word: Kill all state that they are death effectsMight want to re-read those spell descriptions in pathfinder. None of those spells state they are a death effect, and as such, none of those would be blocked by death ward.
They have the [death] descriptor, and are thus death effects.
Might want to re-read those spell descriptions in pathfinder. None of those spells state they are a death effect, and as such, none of those would be blocked by death ward.
School necromancy [death]
School enchantment (compulsion) [death, mind-affecting]
School necromancy [death]
Reread them. Emphasis in bold. Hope that clarifies what I said.
For example, Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Power Word: Kill all state that they are death effects, typically as part of the school description of their spell (e.g. Necromancy [death]).
If it's not a death effect, please answer this question: My fighter has 100 hp left. He is coup-de-graced for 20 damage. He fails the DC 30 Fort save and dies. How much HP does he have left?
Edit: Found the relevant rule:
Special Abilities[/url]]Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
- Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
- Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
- In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
- The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
So I'd say it certainly sounds like a non-magical death effect.
How much HP does he have left?
Special Abilities[/url]]- In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
That right there sells me on Breath of Life not working on someone killed by a coup-de-grace. I'm still iffy on it being a death effect, since I'm wary to say that any Fort or Die save is necessarily a death effect, but based on the RAW you've shown, yeah, I'm wrong. Breath of Life does not save you.
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If it's not a death effect, please answer this question: My fighter has 100 hp left. He is coup-de-graced for 20 damage. He fails the DC 30 Fort save and dies. How much HP does he have left?
Edit: Found the relevant rule:
So I'd say it certainly sounds like a non-magical death effect.Special Abilities[/url]]Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
- Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
- Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
- In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
- The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
thank you Bobson, will have to tell the pcs next week i was generous with allowing breath of life to revive the pc. :-)
That right there sells me on Breath of Life not working on someone killed by a coup-de-grace. I'm still iffy on it being a death effect, since I'm wary to say that any Fort or Die save is necessarily a death effect, but based on the RAW you've shown, yeah, I'm wrong. Breath of Life does not save you.
If their HP equals their neg Con score, then breath of life most definitely can save them, provided you heal them up to at least 1 more than neg Con score.
If their HP equals their neg Con score, then breath of life most definitely can save them, provided you heal them up to at least 1 more than neg Con score.
If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead.
It's all kinda funny in there though, because the death effect description states that the victim has "has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score". So which is it, equal or less? Because in this particular case it matters. If it's less, Breath of Life works. If it's equal, it doesn't.
GM discrection, I guess.
EDIT: Oh, and what does "less" mean in this case? Is it 'less than' as in -11 is less than -10? Or is it less than their CON score where 9 is less than 10? Inconsistent wording is making this more confusing for me.
It's all kinda funny in there though, because the death effect description states that the victim has "has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score". So which is it, equal or less? Because in this particular case it matters. If it's less, Breath of Life works. If it's equal, it doesn't.
GM discrection, I guess.
You realize breath of life also HEALs HP damage right? And only if that healed HP brings them to more than neg Con score do they come back to life. If their con score is 10. They are coup de graced, life through the dmg, but fail the save, they are now at -10. Breath of life that heals at least 1 HP (it does 5d8+caster level up to 25) will make them alive again, and at the new HP total. If it brings them to 1 or higher, they're even conscious again.
You realize breath of life also HEALs HP damage right? And only if that healed HP brings them to more than neg Con score do they come back to life. If their con score is 10. They are coup de graced, life through the dmg, but fail the save, they are now at -10. Breath of life that heals at least 1 HP (it does 5d8+caster level up to 25) will make them alive again, and at the new HP total. If it brings them to 1 or higher, they're even conscious again.It's all kinda funny in there though, because the death effect description states that the victim has "has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score". So which is it, equal or less? Because in this particular case it matters. If it's less, Breath of Life works. If it's equal, it doesn't.
GM discrection, I guess.
I like this interpretation, other wise breath of life is a pretty bunk spell in general because any healing spell can do nearly the same thing
I follow now. I was putting the caveat about hit points being greater than or equal to CON score before the restoration of hit points. Putting the cart before the horse, I suppose.
Hit points are restored, then you check for hit point total >= Negative CON. If above negative con, you're stable, if below, you're still dead. Clarified, thank you.
I like this interpretation, other wise breath of life is a pretty bunk spell in general because any healing spell can do nearly the same thingYou realize breath of life also HEALs HP damage right? And only if that healed HP brings them to more than neg Con score do they come back to life. If their con score is 10. They are coup de graced, life through the dmg, but fail the save, they are now at -10. Breath of life that heals at least 1 HP (it does 5d8+caster level up to 25) will make them alive again, and at the new HP total. If it brings them to 1 or higher, they're even conscious again.It's all kinda funny in there though, because the death effect description states that the victim has "has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score". So which is it, equal or less? Because in this particular case it matters. If it's less, Breath of Life works. If it's equal, it doesn't.
GM discrection, I guess.
It's not so much an interpretation as a direct reading of the rules.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.
So if you have 10 con, drop to -30, and the healing brings you up to -10, you're still dead. If it brings you up to -9, you're alive again.
But the coup-de-grace leaves the PC with "hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score" without specifying how much less. So it could be -10 (in this case), or it could be -500. Both are equal to or less than the negative con score. BoL is a great spell, but doesn't help with CdG's
What is most fun and in the best interests of the party, and game.
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If it was me, unless the CdG cut the players head off.... i would let Breath of Life work.
Living character are more fun than dead characters.
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Does the paralyzer effect still effect the character when brought back to life for 3 more round = Again i would say = What every creates a better story for the player. (( DM call )).
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But the coup-de-grace leaves the PC with "hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score" without specifying how much less. So it could be -10 (in this case), or it could be -500. Both are equal to or less than the negative con score. BoL is a great spell, but doesn't help with CdG's
By the strict RAW, Coup de Grace does not reduce the target's hit points at all beyond the damage of the attack. Thus they still have most of their hit points intact and the Breath of Life spell automatically prevents them from dying.
This is a far more sensible interpretation.
I like this interpretation, other wise breath of life is a pretty bunk spell in general because any healing spell can do nearly the same thingYou realize breath of life also HEALs HP damage right? And only if that healed HP brings them to more than neg Con score do they come back to life. If their con score is 10. They are coup de graced, life through the dmg, but fail the save, they are now at -10. Breath of life that heals at least 1 HP (it does 5d8+caster level up to 25) will make them alive again, and at the new HP total. If it brings them to 1 or higher, they're even conscious again.It's all kinda funny in there though, because the death effect description states that the victim has "has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score". So which is it, equal or less? Because in this particular case it matters. If it's less, Breath of Life works. If it's equal, it doesn't.
GM discrection, I guess.
It's not so much an interpretation as a direct reading of the rules.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.
So if you have 10 con, drop to -30, and the healing brings you up to -10, you're still dead. If it brings you up to -9, you're alive again.
But the coup-de-grace leaves the PC with "hit points equal to or...
Where does it say coup-de-grace is a death affect?
The other thing is that with a coup de grace your negative hp is determined by the damage, just like any other attack.
Where does it say coup-de-grace is a death affect?
The other thing is that with a coup de grace your negative hp is determined by the damage, just like any other attack.
It doesn't.
Wraith: If you do not die from the damage dealt in a CdG, you then have to make a fort save. If you fail this save, you die. What is your effective HP for a Breath of Life if you fail the save?
Example: Fighter is at 100HP, wraith CdG's for 30Damage, fighter is now at 70HP. Fighter rolls a nat 1 on his fort save, fighter dies.
Is the fighter dead but still at 70HP? If a cleric/oracle casts BoL on him during that round, and heals him by 10HP, is the fighter now alive and at 80HP?
Where does it say coup-de-grace is a death affect?
It doesn't, but it matches the description of what a death effect is. Given that this is an exception-based system, that's not definitive the way it might be in other systems, but it's a pretty reasonable interpretation.
The other thing is that with a coup de grace your negative hp is determined by the damage, just like any other attack.
See the question that Tarantula and I have both asked: What if your hp isn't negative after the CdG?
Where does it say coup-de-grace is a death affect?
The other thing is that with a coup de grace your negative hp is determined by the damage, just like any other attack.
It doesn't.
Wraith: If you do not die from the damage dealt in a CdG, you then have to make a fort save. If you fail this save, you die. What is your effective HP for a Breath of Life if you fail the save?
Example: Fighter is at 100HP, wraith CdG's for 30Damage, fighter is now at 70HP. Fighter rolls a nat 1 on his fort save, fighter dies.
Is the fighter dead but still at 70HP? If a cleric/oracle casts BoL on him during that round, and heals him by 10HP, is the fighter now alive and at 80HP?
I would rule that you are a the minimum need to die, but the rules don't state that. It is the only reasonable interpretation I can think of though.
When you die you are at -con score since dead characters have no hit points.Edit: I found the answer or at least I think I did
Death AttacksIn most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the effect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.
* Raise dead doesn't work on someone killed by a death attack or effect.
* Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
* In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
* The spell death ward protects against these attacks.
It seems it is a death attack, but I do wish death attacks were labeled. It is nice to know that death ward protects against such things though.
I think it is a death attack in the same sense that the assassin death attack which can also kill you with damage is one.
If you fail the save versus the assassin ability you are insta-dead and can not be raised normally, but if you survive the hp damage may still kill you, but you can then be raised normally. I think coup de grace's work the same way.
It is nice to know that death ward protects against such things though.
I had that thought too, but it turns out it doesn't:
The subject gains a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects. The subject is granted a save to negate such effects even if one is not normally allowed. The subject is immune to energy drain and any negative energy effects, including channeled negative energy.
This spell does not remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, but it does remove the penalties from negative levels for the duration of its effect.
Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks, even if those attacks might be lethal.
Neither of the bolded sections protects you from non-magical death effects, like coup de grace would be.
Edit: ninja'd
It seems it is a death attack, but I do wish death attacks were labeled. It is nice to know that death ward protects against such things though.Actually, even if coup de grace is a death attack, it looks like death ward does not protect against it cos it is not magical.
Death Ward
The subject gains a +4 morale bonus on saves against all death spells and magical death effects.Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks, even if those attacks might be lethal.
good point. This game requires way to much cross referencing.
Trying to determine how many hp you have when you fail your save against a coup de grace is a moot point. You're dead.
Though it isn't a death effect, Breath of Life still cannot save you from a coup de grace that killed you from the save. Why? Breath of Life only brings you back when damage is what killed you. You didn't die from damage. You died from a failed save against death.
I think it is a death attack in the same sense that the assassin death attack which can also kill you with damage is one.
If you fail the save versus the assassin ability you are insta-dead and can not be raised normally, but if you survive the hp damage may still kill you, but you can then be raised normally. I think coup de grace's work the same way.
True Death (SU) is a 4th level class ability. You can not even take the Assassin class till you have 5 ranks in Stealth. Which means that this class ability can not even be gotten till the character is at least 9th level character class at the earliest.
True Death is a Supernatural Ability.
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coup de grace = is not a Supernatural ability. It also can not be done against creature that are not effected by Critical hits.
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Oh well to muddle the water further.
IF you are Coup de Grace by having your throat cut.
Does the Breath of Life, only need to enter your mouth OR does it need to enter your lungs.
:)
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That being said, ... i am in favor of the spell working to save a life.
If you failed the save.
Would treat the target 18 Con as -18 con and heal from there. You still alive.
And we do not need you setting out the game for 4 hours this session, nor do i need to spend one hour double checking your new character, and 4 hour talking about the goals, history, morals, and ambitions for your new character.
I think it is a death attack in the same sense that the assassin death attack which can also kill you with damage is one.
If you fail the save versus the assassin ability you are insta-dead and can not be raised normally, but if you survive the hp damage may still kill you, but you can then be raised normally. I think coup de grace's work the same way.
True Death (SU) is a 4th level class ability. You can not even take the Assassin class till you have 5 ranks in Stealth. Which means that this class ability can not even be gotten till the character is at least 9th level character class at the earliest.
True Death is a Supernatural Ability.
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coup de grace = is not a Supernatural ability. It also can not be done against creature that are not effected by Critical hits.
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It does not matter if coup de grace is a supernatural ability or not. Death affects don't need to be supernatural. My point was that the failing of the save for assassin ability is what makes it act as a death affect, but if you make the save, but die from hp damage then a raise dead can bring you back.
PS:Of course one could argue that it was the coup de grace/death attack that caused the death even if the save was made.
If you failed the save.Would treat the target 18 Con as -18 con and heal from there. You still alive.
I also see this as a reasonable interpretation.
I also see this as a reasonable interpretation.
If you failed the save.Would treat the target 18 Con as -18 con and heal from there. You still alive.
I agree this is the most reasonable interpretation and is how I would play it in my games.