Gunslinger1 / Rogue9 in the YD-esque arena cube


Playtest Results: Round 2


YD, you are an inspiration to us all… or something.

Seriously though, you make this look easy - this took hours!

Presenting!

James’s showdown at the rhetorical and strangely void OK-45 foot Cube!

“The Kid”
Human Gunslinger 1/Rogue (swashbuckler) 9

Str 13
Dex 22 (+2 racial, +2 item, +2 level)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16 (+2 item)
Cha 7

Feats: Gunsmith, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, TWF, Improved TWF, *Dodge, *Mobility, Deft Shootist
Talents: Powerful Sneak (unused), Befuddling Strike (always used), *Combat Trick x2

Equipment:
2 +1 pepperboxes
2 pistols as backup weapons
100 flare cartridges
100 paper cartridges
+2 dex item
+2 wis item
+2 mithril chain shirt
ring of protection +1
cloak of resistance +2

and lots and lots of other stuff he can afford at that level (including a sideline cleric with the heal spells)…

HP 75 (10+9d8+20) (*note I'm not adding favored class bonuses...)
AC 24 (6 armor, 6 dex, 1 deflection, 1 dodge)
CMB +7
CMD 23
Fort 9
Ref 16
Will 8 (+3 vs. fear)
Initiative +6
3 Grit
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Daring +3 (acrobatics and saves vs. fear)

Relevent Skills: escape artist +19, acrobatics +22

Attack: +14 pepperbox (1d8+1), w/ DA +12 (1d8+5), w/ DA and SA (1d8+5+5d6)
Full Attack: +10/+5 pepperbox and +10/+5 pepperbox
Or W/ rapid shot: +8/+8/+3 pepperbox and +8/+3 pepperbox
And w/ DA: +6/+6/+1 pepperbox and +6/+1 pepperbox.

He can reload after each and every shot, so I’ll not document it unless I think I need to.

His big draw? He blinds his targets and full-attack sneak attacks the enemy’s touch AC until it goes down.

Combats, scaling from -2 CR to +2 CR if he makes it…

CR 8 Behir
CR 9 Nessian Hell Hound
CR 10 Rakshasa
CR 11 Cloud Giant
CR 12 Adult Green Dragon

45ft cube, combatants begin adjacent to a wall w/ equal distance to side walls.

CR 8 Behir

Round 1

The Kid goes first w/ a 16, the behir rolls 4

The kid takes a five-foot step up, burns a grit point on deadeye and fires a flare cartridge. He rolls a 30, hits for 2 damage and blinds the behir (who now has 103 remaining) The kid reloads a flare cartridge.

The behir moves forward 20ft.

Round 2

The Kid steps up 5ft, uses a full attack w/rapid shot.
First shot – 25, hits. 4 damage and blinds behir again. (behir has 99)
Second shot 17, hit. 17 damage w/ SA. (behir has 72)
Third shot is a threat, and confirms with 13. 37 damage. (behir has 35)
1st offhand shot hits, 27. 22 damage (behir has 15)
2nd offhand shot hits, 14. 20 damage.

The behir is dead. (As a side note, using befuddling strike on 4 SA’s gives the behir a -8 penalty on attack rolls for at least the next round, in addition to being blind…)

The Kid reloads a single flare cartridge and a bunch of normal shot.

*Too Easy - I was worried about grapple in this fight, but...

CR 9 Nissian Hell Hound

Round 1

The hound wins initiative with a 24, The Kid got 16

The hound moves 20ft and uses breath weapon. The Kid saves (29) and takes no damage.

The Kid makes a full attack w/ rapid shot.

First shot (flare cartridge) hits (27), blinding the hound and doing 7 dmg.

(the hound has 119 remaining)

Second shot hits (14) for 27 dmg. (hound has 92)
Third shot hits (10) for 31 dmg. (hound has 61)
1st offhand hits (17) for 15 dmg. (hound has 46)
2nd offhand hits (16) for 23 dmg. (hound has 23)

The hound also takes a -8 penalty for (1d4 rounds) to attacks and is blind for 1 round.

Round 2

The hound moves into melee and bites blindly, missing (on a 17).

The kid makes a full attack w/out rapid shot.

First shot (flare cartridge, again) is a threat, confirmed with a roll of 16. 11 damage.

(The hound has 12 HP remaining.)

The Kid’s second shot is a hit (15) for only 10 damage. (hound has 2)
1st offhand threats (24 confirms) for 42 damage. (hound is -40)

The hound dies and The Kid reloads, again loading a single flare cartridge and again suffering no damage this round.

*Again, too easy.

CR 10 Rakshasa

The kid rolls 22 initiative. The rakshasa only rolled 19.

Round 1

The kid steps forward 5ft, uses deadeye (2 grit left) and fires off flare cartridge.

That shot barely hits (because it hits touch AC) on a roll of 17. The shot deals no damage, but blinds the rakshasa for 1 round.

The rakshasa uses detect thoughts to find the gunslinger as a free action, but The Kid saves (19).

The rakshasa then casts invisibility and moves forward 35ft toward where he remembered The Kid standing.

Round 2

The kid delays.

The rakshasa takes a 5ft step into melee and takes a full-round of melee attacks.
The first kukri attack misses (16)
The second kukri attack is a threat that confirms (31). The Kid takes 15 damage.
The claw is a miss (14)
And the bite hits (28) and does 5 damage.

The kid is down to 55hp.

The kid takes a full round of attacks, using rapid shot and dead aim.
First shot (flare cartridge) hits on an 18. No damage, but the rakshasa is blind.
The second shot hits (14). He does 22 damage after DR.
The third shot threats and confirms (12). The rakshasa takes 47 damage after DR.
1st offhand shot misses (8).
2nd offhand shot misses (4).

So rakshasa is blind, has a -4 to hit next round and has 46hp remaining and the kid has 55.

Round 3

The kid takes a full round of attacks, again with rapid shot and dead aim.

First Shot (flare cartridge) hits w/ 22. No damage, but the rakshasa is blind.
Second Shot hits (24) and does 20 damage after DR. (rakshasa has 26 left)
Third Shot hits (15) and does 12 damage after DR. (rakshasa has 14)
1st offhand hits (16) and does 11 damage after DR. (rakshasa has 3)
2nd offhand misses (4) misfiring as well!

The rakshasa detects thoughts.
He then full attacks.

First kukri attack beats miss chance but misses (18).
Second kukri misses due to blind.
Claw misses, blind.
Bite misses due to befuddling strike.

Round 4

The kid repeats his full round of attacks w/ rapid shot and dead aim.
First shot (flare) is a miss (11). Wow. I guess he reloads another and fires…
His second shot (flare) is also a big miss (16). Reload flare.
Third shot hits (21) and blinds but does no damage.
1st offhand hits (12) and does 7 damage after DR – enough to drop the rakshasa.

The rakshasa goes down, The Kid fixes his gun and reloads. He pops a couple of potions and is back to full. Back to 3 grit again…

*This was actually kind of challenging. Not surprisingly, one of the problematic things with The Kid is that with this build (and a lot of other TWF builds) DR is a big deal. The Kid’s total damage output before DR is almost as much as the rakshasa’s max hp. Also, the build counts on enemies having a lot less Touch AC than normal AC – which is still the case here. Rakshasa’s have a 25 AC, and only a 16 Touch AC, but that is still a problem for this build when The Kid full attacks.

CR 11 Cloud Giant

The Kid rolls 23 for initiative. The giant gets 13.

Round 1

The Kid uses deadey and fires a single flare cartridge using DA. (2 grit left)
21 hits. It does 11 damage and the giant is blind.

The Kid then moves 20ft to right.

The giant casts fog cloud directly in front of himself.

Round 2

The Kid delays.

The giant exits walks forward through the cloud (25ft to the center of the cube floor) and chucks a handy dandy boulder at The Kid, missing. (17)

The Kid takes a five foot step toward the giant (now 20ft away) and opens fire – full attack with rapid shot (but not DA).

First shot (flare cartridge) hits (15) and does 4 dmg, blinding the cloud giant.
(giant has 157 left)
Second shot hits (25) and does 30 dmg. (giant has 127)
Third shot hits (20) and does 24 dmg. (giant has 103)
1st offhand (23) and does 29 dmg. (giant has 74 left)
2nd offhand misfires! (natural 1)

Round 3

The Kid spends a grit fixing his gun as a move action. He then fires another flare at the giant, which hits (19) and does 21 damage (and, I assume) extending the giant’s blindness.

The giant takes a five-foot step into melee range (at least for him) and full attacks.
The giant misses due to concealment on the first attack.
The giant hits (30) doing 33 damage to The Kid. (The Kid has 42 left)
The giant misses (23) just barely on the last attack. Befuddling strike was a life-saver.

Round 4

The Kid take a five-foot step back and opens the barrage – full attack w/ rapid shot and deadly aim.
The first shot hits (24) with a flare cartridge. It does 7 damage and blinds the cloud giant yet again. (giant has 67 remaining hp)
The second shot hits (24 again) and does 25 damage (giant has 42)
The third shot hits (16) and does 22 damage (giant has 20)
1st offhand hits (11) and does 32 damage, dropping the cloud giant.

The Kid reloads, heals to full (thanks insubstantial level 10 cleric of the cube!) and goes back to 2 grit thanks to the holy cloud giant.

*Thoughts about cloud giants – they hit hard. They’re also the best kinds of targets for The Kid – almost unmissable – but probably instant death if he gets hit with more than one attack. Make no mistake – The Kid is no tank. I really dig befuddling strike.

CR 12 Adult Green Dragon

The Kid rolls 9 (natural 3) on initiative, but the dragon actually rolled a 2. And I thought this would be a quick kill…

Round 1

The Kid opens with deadeye on a flash cartridge shot. 30 hits. 4 damage and blind. The dragon has ONLY 168hp… The Kid then moves forward 20ft and reloads that flash cartridge.

The dragon doesn’t really need his eyes… he uses his breath weapon. The Kid fails. (DC 22, he rolled a 5+16=21) He takes 50 acid damage.

Round 2

The Kid full attacks with rapid shot and DA.
Fist shot hits (13) and does 5 damage.
Second shot hits (13) and does 27 damage.
Third shot misses (8).
1st offhand hits (23) and does 33 damage.
2nd offhand hits (18) and does 35 damage. The dragon has only 66hp left.

(Added up, this round saw the gunslinger/rogue drop 102 damage on a dragon in one round. Methinks the level of dragon wouldn’t matter much, either…)

(Weird. I rolled 3 8s and 2 18s this round…)

The dragon flyby attacks using power attack. 27 hits. The Kid takes 36 damage. So… yeah, he’s dead, and probably eaten by now.

Those pepperboxes will look nice in the dragon’s hoard though.


Final thoughts – this latest gunslinger is far improved from its original playtest version. It’s extremely good to see load times at a more reasonable rate.

But…

This is dangerously close to the 3.0 ranger/paladin as a mult-classing option – one level gives a whole lot (not in feats, mind you, but the ability to craft whatever you need to play a slinger is particularly nice) and level 2 adds almost nothing in class abilities/options.
Even a +1 to AC would probably not be worth sticking around for.
A bonus feat would.

Fighter/Paladin/Monk (especially zen archer)/Rogue, heck, even Cavaliers and Inquisitors would get the best possible secondary (and maybe primary) weapon from a single level of Gunslinger and the promise of future weapons at a relatively cheap price without having to go hunt it down – and with the added bonus of not being required to have a good dexterity to add to attack rolls due to deadeye/bypassing armor.

The level 1 deeds are well improved and I could see using them quite often. But the issue with all deeds being available to all gunslingers of that level contributes to the class’s usefulness in little dips. If The Kid had to choose between the level 1 deeds, he couldn’t have been such a heavy hitter. The best cut-out points for multi-classed gunslingers just happen to be the levels she gets new deeds – particularly 1, 3 and 7.

The multiclass I made here wasn’t really even optimal. Just a few levels of rogue means a lot when you hit touch AC, and at this level all he’s giving up is 6 damage/hit (and gaining, thanks to flare cartridges not having a save) lots of damage in sneak attacks that are frequently aimed an AC of 10 or less, which adds up to more frequent hits and, of course, 5-30 extra damage per shot.

Bottom lines:

There is almost no practical reason to move in combat (at least in a normal fight, IE within 50ft of opponents). If you can attack at range and then attack in melee without penalty with the same weapons, why ever take anything but full attack actions after level 6?

There needs to be a save on flare cartridges or we’ll see ninjas/rogues/assassins/etc. spike in power when they use guns more than any other weapon. Attacking touch AC on SA is just too good to not be more circumstantial than -> flare cartridge, kill, repeat.

Please give the gunslinger evasion at a lower level than 15! He’s going to need it when mid to upper levels brings gobs of area effect tossing ranged baddies. I’m not sure why they need improved uncanny dodge, really… except to stop The Kid from taking them out in one round.

Oh. And...
Way off topic…
But the ability to make a pair of 3,000gp items (pepper boxes) at the standard wealth of a level 2 character is possibly a game-economy busting option…


you kind of really skew things with that 35 foot square tho.

Dark Archive

James Bolton wrote:

YD, you are an inspiration to us all… or something.

Seriously though, you make this look easy - this took hours!

It's nice to see other people adopting the format. And, yes, it takes frakking forever. It gets easier, though.

This is a very interesting case of a PC being a great Gunslinger without even bothering to take more than one level in the class. I could really see doing this with, say a Ninja. Between flares and invisibility there would be shooting death all over the place.


Pendagast wrote:
you kind of really skew things with that 35 foot square tho.

It's a fair test of what could happen in a classical underground dungeon though. The 5ft/blind 5ft/blind combo is very powerful, and a bit too powerful for a level one dip.


yea, true, most rooms arent larger than this, not too many adult dragons get caught in that kind of space tho.


Pendagast wrote:
yea, true, most rooms arent larger than this, not too many adult dragons get caught in that kind of space tho.

Nope,

Then again, you never know. It's really kind of beside the point though, any CR12 creature would have done. A devil or daemon or something. The point is, he was able to handle an encounter that is, as far as I can figure out, about CR+2 by himself (just potion use). That's not counting the dragon, just the other creatures.


Yeah. I tried to make it a point to not really make The Kid optimized.

Ninja would have been twice as bad. And he wouldn't need those flare cartridges...

I was wondering if this really qualified as a 'gunslinger' playtest - I could have just taken proficiency and gunsmithing as feats, after all. But seeing as how the gunslinger's namesake is used to devastating effect either way, I guess the point is made.

Inquisitor would have been a nasty substitute for rogue, and even a single level dip in shadowdancer might have helped too.

Honestly, as a DM, I'm beginning to wonder why every assassin I run shouldn't have at least one pepperbox to ensure his opening death attack is successful and blinding him in case it isn't (so he can hide and try it again).


Pendagast,

Its true that this holodeck-like sim is skewed, but even if you increase the size, deadeye basically makes up for it. The Kid probably would have spent more grit and I might have seen the need to keep a musket on hand and take the extra grit feat (which is itself a tax considering the fluctuating nature of grit).

Still, any suggestions on making the next one less skewed would be helpful!

I've been thinking about it.

Maybe gunslingers should be able to take feats that add ways to get grit back rather than just getting extra grit.

Something like:

Gritty Defense
Once per round, when you avoid damage by using evasion or avoid an attack of opportunity by using the acrobatics skill, you gain one grit up to the maximum grit you have available.

or

Gritty Teeth
Whenever you eat a lot of carbs...

Maybe.


nice playtest. BUT, and its a pretty big but, you are using the delay action wrongly. If you delay your action, to after the giant has acted for example, then that is the initiative count that "the kid" will use for the rest of the combat. That means he wont have those 2 actions in a row. But besides this slipup, i must admit i kinda like these YD arena of doom playtests.


Good catch nicklas!

I'm not really used to using normal initiative.

At my table, we usually take 10. Delays reset each round, surprise rounds only work for one creature, I've even dabbled in 1st/2nd edition initiatives complete with weapons and armor adding and subtracting from the total roll, etc. Lots of differences.

Thanks.
I'll try to remember that next time.

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