RULES
1. CL 15 wiz or sorc
2. Only 1 trait allowed in your build
3. 25 point buy character with NO magical equipment
4. Pathfinder books only
5. Vs a normal lvl 15 encounter
Lets see what you can do!!!
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Nothing special, Half-Orc Arcane Sorceror.
18 Chr from points, +2 Racial, +1 4th 8th and 12th, (23 total)
Feats: Spell Focus, Widen Spell, Intensified Spell, Elemental Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Focused Spell, Spell Penetration, greater spell penetration, Spontaneous MetaFocus.
The obvious Magical Lineage
Maximized, Intensified, Focused Fireball (level 7 spell)
Chr +6, School Power +2, Focus+1, Greater Focus +1, Elemental Focus +1, Bloodline arcana +4(I think), Single Target +2
DC 27 (one target 25 rest)
Damage 67+5d6 Damage
Not terribly creative but a happy baseline for others to beat.
I am the creator of The "God" Fireball Wizard, of which I am stupidly proud.
So for the thread, here goes:
Race: Elf
Trait: Magical Lineage (Fireball)
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 23 (18 +2 racial, +3 leveling up)
Wis 11
Cha 7
Evoker, Admixture Subschool
Banning: Enchantment and Necromancy
Familiar - Compsognathus (+4 to Initiative)
Feats
Wizard: Scribe Scroll (and Alertness)
Level 1: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Level 3: Rime Spell
Level 5: Preferred Spell (Fireball)
Bonus 5: Heighten Spell
Level 7: Spell Penetration
Level 9: Dazing Spell
Bonus 10: Selective Spell
Level 11: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
Level 13: Quicken Spell
Level 15: Spell Perfection (Fireball)
Bonus 15: Intensified Spell
Fireball DC - 10 + 3 (spell level) + 6 (Int mod) + 4 (SF, GSF, Spell Perfection) for a total of 23. Heighten can further increase the DC and magic items, if any available.
So my Fireball can entangle with Rime Spell by level 5, (still entangled even if they make the save; just so long as they take damage) Daze targets for 3 rounds by level 9, and by level 15, you can do all sorts of stupid shenanigans.
Sacrifice a ___ to spontaneously cast ___:
3rd level spell - a Quickened Rime Fireball
5th level spell - a Dazing Quickened Fireball
3rd level spell - an Intensified Dazing Fireball
6th level spell - a Heightened Intensified Rime Selective Dazing Fireball (Dazes and Entangles for 4 rounds)
Etc. Prepare situational spells, and spontaneously turn them in to fireballs when you don't need them. And you can save all of your higher level spells for other fun stuff. :3
...
As for how to run it in combat, so many ways you could do it. I suppose you could try some debuffs, like Prediction of Failure, to give the target a -4 penalty on all saves and other fun penalties, regardless of whether they save against the spell. Then you could fire off a quickened heightened intensified rime fireball to entangle them. (lowering reflex save further, for 5 rounds) Next turn you could maybe fire off another debuff spell with a standard action, then cast a quickened dazing fireball to incapacitate the target for 3 rounds.
...if you can't come up with a way to defeat something that can't do anything for 3 rounds, you're doing it wrong.
and what would you do with Illusionary script on a lvl 15 encounter?
Race/Class:
Half-Orc Sorcerer (crossblooded, wildblooded)
Bloodlines:
draconic (brass dragon), elemental (primal fire); both together grant +2 damage per die of damage
Favored-Class Bonus:
+7 damage with fire spells
Trait:
Magical Lineage (fireball)
Feats:
Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Perfection (fireball)
This guy can hit you with an Intensified Empowered Maximized fireball and a Quickened Intensified empowered fireball for a total of 269 average damage in one round.
With metamagic rods and additional feats, you can easily top 300 damage, get around resistances/immunities, and/or add fun rider effects like dazing.
EDIT: Use this guy along with a metamagic rod (lingering spell) and several big fire immune minions capable of bull rushing the PCs into the fire again and again. You can burn someone several times for lots and lots of damage using just one casting. :D
Can I ask for you to show me how you got the 281 average please? This is the kind of stuff I am looking for guys please keep it up and thank you all for posting.
Can I ask for you to show me how you got the 281 average please? This is the kind of stuff I am looking for guys please keep it up and thank you all for posting.
Intensified makes a fireball do 15d6 damage.
Maximizing that gives you 90 damage.
Empowering it gives you 90 + (15d6, avg 52.5) / 2 = 116.25 damage.
Add +37 damage (30 from bloodline arcanas, 7 from favored class) for 153.25 average damage.
That's just the first fireball.
The second Fireball's damage is only affected by intensify and empower spell.
So that's 52.5 damage right there, then you add another 37 from bloodline arcanas and favored class bonus for a total average damage of 115.75.
My initial figures were wrong. I should have put 269 average damage (edit: I fixed the above post).
Even on two successful saves, that will put the fear into any non-fire-immune creatures caught in the blast.
Thank you for clarifying that. If I were to get elemental spell in that mix would changing the energy type to acid or something negate the effective bonuses I get from the bloodlines? Im pretty sure it would but I am hoping there is a rule that will let me keep the bonuses and still be able to change the energy type.
I strongly suspect that you would lose the bonuses, causing the average damage per round to drop by 74. Still frighteningly high damage.
ratfolk. beans, source of fire = methane fireball!
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Okay, hold on...are you ready?
Hrrrrrgggghhhtttttt...
↓ ↘ → + P
This is what I was thinking, minus wildblooded and elemental fire, plus Orc bloodline from Orcs of Golarion (part of the Pathfinder Player's Companion line, so I think that meets the OP's guidelines). I've repeatedly heard that Wildblooded and Crossblooded can't mix because they both modify the Bloodline Powers.
Race/Class:
Half-Orc Sorcerer (crossblooded, wildblooded)Bloodlines:
draconic (brass dragon), elemental (primal fire); both together grant +2 damage per die of damageFavored-Class Bonus:
+7 damage with fire spellsTrait:
Magical Lineage (fireball)Feats:
Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Perfection (fireball)This guy can hit you with an Intensified Empowered Maximized fireball and a Quickened Intensified empowered fireball for a total of 269 average damage in one round.
With metamagic rods and additional feats, you can easily top 300 damage, get around resistances/immunities, and/or add fun rider effects like dazing.
EDIT: Use this guy along with a metamagic rod (lingering spell) and several big fire immune minions capable of bull rushing the PCs into the fire again and again. You can burn someone several times for lots and lots of damage using just one casting. :D
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Okay, hold on...are you ready?
Hrrrrrgggghhhtttttt...
↓ ↘ → + P
↓ ↘ → ↓ ↘ → + HP + HK
Ravingdork, isn't the +37 points of damage from fixed bonuses also increased by 50% by Empower Spell in Pathfinder? I think that FAQ stated something to that effect?
EDIT: Empower Spell FAQ. Seems to me that your fireballs should increase their average damage by 18.5 points each.
Ravingdork, isn't the +37 points of damage from fixed bonuses also increased by 50% by Empower Spell in Pathfinder? I think that FAQ stated something to that effect?
EDIT: Empower Spell FAQ. Seems to me that your fireballs should increase their average damage by 18.5 points each.
I had forgotten about that possibility. It's debatable since some people don't see that extra damage as being part of the spell itself (which is what metamagic effects), but rather part of the character's class abilities.
If I were to get elemental spell in that mix would changing the energy type to acid or something negate the effective bonuses I get from the bloodlines?
Elemental Spell doesn't alter the energy descriptor. Even though your fireball might not deal fire damage it still has the [Fire] descriptor and that's what the bloodlines check for. The Half-Orc favoured class bonus looks to be a shorthand version of the same thing. So it looks like you don't lose any of the damage.
Ravingdork, isn't the +37 points of damage from fixed bonuses also increased by 50% by Empower Spell in Pathfinder? I think that FAQ stated something to that effect?
EDIT: Empower Spell FAQ. Seems to me that your fireballs should increase their average damage by 18.5 points each.
That's referring to the numerical bonus set by the spell itself. For instance, if a spell does 1d4 + 1 damage, you apply Empower Spell to 1d4 + 1 damage, not 1d4 damage.
Bonuses like the bonus damage from the Draconic bloodline are external to the spell. Empower Spell only applies to damage from a spell, not additional damage from a class ability.
And trust me, you don't need to make the additional damage mechanics (Draconic bloodline/intense spells) more powerful. *Other than caster level increases*, they're the best thing you can do to increase your damage output with spell damage.
OK, this is probably cheating, but here's what I'd do:
Human wizard - evocation specialist - 26 Int - with +3 inherent bonus granted by wishes (not magical equipment, thanks Planar Binding efreeti!). 15 ranks in spellcraft.
1 - Spell Focus (evocation)
H - Varisian Tattoo
3 - Spell Specialization (delayed blast fireball)
5 - Greater Spell Focus (evocation)
5B - Extend Spell
7 - Elemental Focus (fire)
9 - Greater Elemental Focus (fire)
10B - Empower Spell
13 - Maximize Spell (meh, not used)
15 - Spell Perfection (delayed blast fireball)
trait: Magical Lineage (delayed blast fireball)
Base DC for delayed blast fireball -> 10 + 8 Int + 2 SF + 2 GF + 7 = DC 29
Base DC for forcecage -> 10 + 8 + 2 + 7 = DC 27
plan:
1. Forcecage on target (since someone mentioned forcecage as being crappy today)
2. Cast 4 Extended Empowered Delayed Blast fireballs -- 18d6 * 1.5 + 9 or 103.5 avg damage each. Set them to go off at some time within 10 rounds.
3. Delay initiative to the initiative count before the fireballs will go off.
4. Ready an action to dismiss the forcecage when the DBF will go off.
5. Readied action interrupts the DBFs going off.
6. All the beads go off. . . 414 damage on average.
HAHA I love it!!!
Easy, I can think of several.
Firebawl: You summon a depressed fire elemental, and so are showered with incendiary tears in a 20ft radius.
Fire Ball: The target area's inhabitants are instantly transported to the Elemental Plane of Fire, and they are forced to ballroom dance. Of course, they take fire damage inherent to the plane each round, and the duration is 1 round per 1d6 of the Fireball that would have been cast had the DM not been an evil SOB and substituted in this spell for a regular Fireball on the scroll.
Wildblooded and Crossblooded don't mix.
Mike Brock, for PFS believers Link
For non-believers:
Both modify bloodline arcana's One modifies which you get by letting you pick, the other modifies by over riding. If they had not made both of these Archetypes it would work. Generally accepted that they are mutually exclusive.
I realize James Jacobs has said he sees no problem with house ruling them to be allowed. Just pointing out that the actual rules say no.
Still a non-believer. What's more, I've only seen a handful of posters say they don't mesh. That's hardly "generally accepted."
Rules on Archetypes:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
So you can have 2 archetypes SO LONG AS: they do not alter the same feature.
Class features . . . Bloodlines.
So we have now established Bloodlines are a Sorcerer class feature. We have further established that IF an Archetype alters a Bloodline, you MAY NOT take a second Archetype that alters a bloodline.
Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities.
Note: Other special abilities are, in general, Bloodline Arcana and Bloodline Powers, but the class feature is Bloodlines.
A crossblooded sorcerer selects two different bloodlines. The sorcerer may gain access to the skills, feats, and some of the powers of both bloodlines she is descended from, but at the cost of reduced mental clarity and choice (see Drawbacks).
Let us examine what is different between a Crossblooded Sorcerer and a regular Sorcerer so we know what has been altered.
1) Skills
2) Feats
3) It alters the Bloodline Powers, so it modifies the Bloodline class feature.
So as long as Wildblooded does NOT Skills, Feats, or Bloodline, they can be used together.
A wildblooded sorcerer has a mutated version of a more common bloodline, with one arcana and at least one bloodline power that are different from those of an unmutated bloodline. When creating a wildblooded sorcerer, select an existing bloodline . . .
As above, let's examine what has changed so we know what has been altered.
1) All this Archetype changes is the Bloodline.
So, back to the first rule of Archetypes: Do they both change the same class feature, specifically, the bloodline class feature?
Answer: Yes. Therefore they are exclusive of one another. You cannot have a cross blooded/wildblooded character per the rules as outlined above.
Do you have to follow the rule at your table? No. Is it the rule none the less? Yes.
I'm still not convinced that the ability to select more of something initially is considered a change to the class ability. The bloodline in question is still exactly the same as before once selected.
Feats
Wizard: Scribe Scroll (and Alertness)
Level 1: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Level 3: Rime Spell
Level 5: Preferred Spell (Fireball)
Bonus 5: Heighten Spell
Level 7: Spell Penetration
Level 9: Dazing Spell
Small point but...You need Heighten as a prerequisite for Preferred.
Small point but...You need Heighten as a prerequisite for Preferred.
Feats
Wizard: Scribe Scroll (and Alertness)
Level 1: Spell Focus (Evocation)
Level 3: Rime Spell
Level 5: Preferred Spell (Fireball)
Bonus 5: Heighten Spell
Level 7: Spell Penetration
Level 9: Dazing Spell
be gets noth at 5th level
I'm still not convinced that the ability to select more of something initially is considered a change to the class ability. The bloodline in question is still exactly the same as before once selected.
You pick which abilities to pull from each of the two bloodlines. If you left either bloodline intact, you would not have to take this archetype. The entire point of the bloodline is to alter the base bloodlines in question, doubling up on + Damage/Dice for example.
If you were not going to alter the bloodline, you would simply choose one bloodline or the other. You don't though, you pick specific abilities to Build you own Bloodline.
This new bloodline is neither the Orc bloodline, nor is it the Draconic bloodline. It is an amalgamation of the two. I don't understand how that is not considered an alteration to either or both.
I think the confusion stems from the powers and arcana. The Bloodline is the Class Feature. The Powers and Arcana are parts of this class feature, not the class feature itself. If you look at powers/arcana, nothing changes, so it looks like it should be legal.
If you look at the end result and the Class Feature, it seems obvious that the BLOODLINE is radically different. Again, if you did not end up with a custom bloodline, why on earth would you take slow spell progression and -2 to will saves?
Once again, it is a question of the Bloodline (Since that is the class feature), not the bloodline powers and bloodline arcana. The bloodline class feature has changed. As above, this makes these two incompatible.
I'm still not convinced that the ability to select more of something initially is considered a change to the class ability. The bloodline in question is still exactly the same as before once selected.You pick which abilities to pull from each of the two bloodlines. If you left either bloodline intact, you would not have to take this archetype. The entire point of the bloodline is to alter the base bloodlines in question, doubling up on + Damage/Dice for example.
If you were not going to alter the bloodline, you would simply choose one bloodline or the other. You don't though, you pick specific abilities to Build you own Bloodline.
This new bloodline is neither the Orc bloodline, nor is it the Draconic bloodline. It is an amalgamation of the two. I don't understand how that is not considered an alteration to either or both.
I think the confusion stems from the powers and arcana. The Bloodline is the Class Feature. The Powers and Arcana are parts of this class feature, not the class feature itself. If you look at powers/arcana, nothing changes, so it looks like it should be legal.
If you look at the end result and the Class Feature, it seems obvious that the BLOODLINE is radically different. Again, if you did not end up with a custom bloodline, why on earth would you take slow spell progression and -2 to will saves?
Once again, it is a question of the Bloodline (Since that is the class feature), not the bloodline powers and bloodline arcana. The bloodline class feature has changed. As above, this makes these two incompatible.
If all depends on how you view the wild blooded archtype.
You can look at it as Wild-blooded gives you an alternate version of an existing bloodline. IE The wild-blooded arcane bloodline is effectively a completely new bloodline called sage.Cross-blooded lets you choose 2 bloodlines and gain abilities from both.
If you look at it that way, they are completely compatible.
If all depends on how you view the wild blooded archtype.
You can look at it as Wild-blooded gives you an alternate version of an existing bloodline. IE The wild-blooded arcane bloodline is effectively a completely new bloodline called sage.
I am completely at a loss as to how to explain it any better. One last try.
1) Crossblooded is an Archetype.
2) Wildblooded is an Archetype.
3) You need Crossblooded if you want to mix and match bloodline powers.
4) You need Wildblooded if you want a mutated bloodline.
5) Crossblooded alters your bloodline.
Example from Ravingdork's build, draconic (brass dragon), elemental (primal fire) to get the +1 to each die twice. This is a custom made bloodline. It is not an unaltered Draconic bloodline, nor is it the unaltered Elemental bloodline. The ONLY reason to take Crossblooded is to ALTER your bloodline.
6) Wildblooded modifies your Bloodline. The archetype description explains in great detail that this is what the Archetype does. It specifically calls out multiple times that it mutates an existing bloodline into a different form changing at a miminum 1 bloodline power and 1 bloodline arcana.
Conclusion: BOTH these Archetypes change the same Class Feature: Bloodline.
Rule: You CANNOT have multiple Archetypes that change the same Class Feature.
Therefore: You cannot take Wildblooded AND Crossblooded.
As I said, you can house rule however you want, but at the end of the day, the rules are very specific and clear on this one.
[/Hijack]
Looks to me like needless persistence on some "less than stellar" rulings.Archetype or not ,Wildblooded Bloodlines are supposed to be perfectly balanced against the regular Bloodlines since there is nothing that changes besides some arcanas and bloodline powers. If they werent then the "archetype" would need to give some additional penalties like wildblooded does or would by definition be unbalanced.
That leaves the question:Whats the point in enforcing such a ruling?
But for the OP this is mostly irrelevant since RD's example still works with Orc/Draconic.
Whaaaaat, nobody gets the jokes?!