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I think there's some confusion here. I agree that the "dog, guard" in the Core Rulebook does not come trained. Someone asked "why pay 25GP for an untrained dog?" and my reply was that if you don't have the Adventurer's Armory (like me), the only dog you can get for 25 gp is an untrained one, which is still somewhat useful.
yup there was confusion, I thought you where saying you could get the guard dog from the core trained.
too clarify, I think it should come trained, but it doesn't as of yet for PFS by RAW.
I think it is silly that 2 dogs of the same price, that one comes trained, and the other doesn't. This should be fixed in PFS rule.
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As I stated before, I think the biggest issue is that there are two rules/guidelines conflicting on this issue. The first is the "Additional Resources" section which indicates that Dog, Combat Trained is a legal purchase and by description, is trained for combat. The second is in the "Animals and Companions" section of the Guide, which states that purchased animals (other than those specifically trained for riding) do not include training at the time of purchase.
So which is it? If the former is true, then why doesn't the Dog, Guard from the CRB, come trained when it is the same cost? It cannot be simply because the player has purchased an optional book. It has "Guard" right in the title, which seems to indicate it received training in the general purpose of guarding.
If the latter is true, then there is no difference between the dogs from the two sources and the character must apply the normal training rules. As long as you have a decent Handle Animal score, this should not be a huge concern.
Granted, we are only talking about a 25gp resource, so even if it differs from GM to GM, I do not think that this is a huge issue. Buy one, if you'd like, and if the GM rules against you regarding its training status, then just leave it at home. It might be nice to have initially, but after a few levels, it won't be more than a speed bump (thanks Doug) anyway.
Director of Brand Strategy
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We are in the process of incorporating errata into the Adventurer's Armory for an updated printing. One of the changes that will take effect in the next printing is the formerly named "Dog, Combat-Trained", which will be called "Dog, Guard" in future printings, bringing it in line with the purchasable animal of the same name in the Core Rulebook. Here is the text as it will appear in the updated version:
Dog, Guard: This Small, combat-trained dog is bred strictly for battle; breeders favor strength, a thick body, and a low center of gravity. Guard dogs are sold in most large cities in the Inner Sea region. They are popular as sport fighters in Cheliax, though the best specimens are bred in Molthune, where they are used as special infantry.
Since it may be some time before the updated printing begins circulating to the public in either print or pdf formats, the above may be considered legal rules content until that time.
Since the guard dog above is specifically listed as being "combat-trained" it knows all tricks associated with Combat Training as outlined on page 98 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook: attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.
The text on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play v3.0.2 causing some confusion will be changed in the next revision of the document and/or clarified in a FAQ. While the intent of the rule will remain the same, the wording will express that intent more clearly.
If a specific, legally purchased animal lists it as being combat trained (such as a heavy horse [combat trained], light horse [combat trained], pony [combat trained], and riding dog listed in chapter 6 of the Core Rulebook, or the guard dog from Adventurer's Armory), that animal knows all tricks associated with Combat Training, as listed on page 98 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. If an animal is purchased from a legal source and lacks specific notation of existing training, that animal must be taught tricks as normal using Handle Animal.
If a specific, legally purchased animal lists it as being combat trained (such as a heavy horse [combat trained], light horse [combat trained], pony [combat trained], and riding dog listed in chapter 6 of the Core Rulebook, or the guard dog from Adventurer's Armory), that animal knows all tricks associated with Combat Training, as listed on page 98 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
...but not the guard dog from the Core Rulebook?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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...but not the guard dog from the Core Rulebook?
The Core Rulebook provides no actual rules for the guard dog and thus does not specifically list it as being combat-trained. It simply lists the price of a guard dog without any rules text or explanation, which is why we included that in the Adventurer's Armory.
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The problem is using your move actions to control the dog, and the requirement to make DC10+ handle animal checks any time you want it to do something. More problematic than it sounds, especially at low levels.
Unfortunately, I rarely see GM's enforce the use of Handle Animal. Proper use of this skill can make it much more challenging to use Fido as a 'flank-mate'.
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Leash around waist, with handle four feet from waist 10ft long least total. As a caster you keep the dog close 2-6 feet. When combat arises you release the least and begin casting or what have you. If something attacks you the dog defends which buys your first second level character time, and for a caster of this level this is golden.
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Leash around waist, with handle four feet from waist 10ft long least total. As a caster you keep the dog close 2-6 feet. When combat arises you release the least and begin casting or what have you. If something attacks you the dog defends which buys your first second level character time, and for a caster of this level this is golden.
If you are referring to a quick-release type leash, I do not recall anything like that in any books. So it wouldn't exist. The dog would essentially be tied to you just like using a rope. It would cost you at least a standard action (maybe full?) to release it. IMO, this would hinder the caster more than the value of the protection. Just take some ranks in Handle Animal and buy a combat trained dog.
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You may use 25gp of your initial wealth to buy a dog, guard (small), but after that, save the GP's. Use a PA to get a 150gp item for free and select a dog, riding (medium) for a better companion. Druids seem to have no problem replacing dead AC's each mod ;-), why not everyone else? 1 PA per mod is pretty cheap for a handy little minion, even if it is perishable. Of course, the dog's value is inversely proportional to the tier. It becomes essentially worthless by high tier where AoO and environmental issues can kill it, in the surprise round, as collateral damage.
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I've yet to see Handle Animal skills NOT be enforced! :)
So its a DC10 to command it to do anything, including directing it to attack.
You could theoretically claim the animal is set to a guard mode, but then it will only attack whatever is melee attacking you, it wont necessarily be flanking or anything advanced, just shooting a straight line.
Dropping move actions to get it to attack WHO you want is a consuming process, and groanwortthy if you botch a roll...leaving the animal standing there practically useless.
Similarly, if it doesn't have certain skills in the repertoire you may also have issues.
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If you are referring to a quick-release type leash, I do not recall anything like that in any books. So it wouldn't exist. The dog would essentially be tied to you just like using a rope. It would cost you at least a standard action (maybe full?) to release it. IMO, this would hinder the caster more than the value of the protection. Just take some ranks in Handle Animal and buy a combat trained dog.
Leash around waist, with handle four feet from waist 10ft long least total. As a caster you keep the dog close 2-6 feet. When combat arises you release the least and begin casting or what have you. If something attacks you the dog defends which buys your first second level character time, and for a caster of this level this is golden.
No not a quick release. It is a leash tied around the characters waist (use rope) four feet off it has a loop(handle) and carries on a further six feet to the dogs neck. If the loop and leash are held the dog may have very limited movement when the leash and loop are released the dog has a ten foot radius from the caster (just have to be careful about tangling. Yes with training the dog can be commanded so a hand held short leash would work and a DC 10 to enact the command, either way a leash is necessary to keep tinkles from running to smell everything along the path.
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No not a quick release. It is a leash tied around the characters waist (use rope) four feet off it has a loop(handle) and carries on a further six feet to the dogs neck. If the loop and leash are held the dog may have very limited movement when the leash and loop are released the dog has a ten foot radius from the caster (just have to be careful about tangling. Yes with training the dog can be commanded so a hand held short leash would work and a DC 10 to enact the command, either way a leash is necessary to keep tinkles from running to smell everything along the path.
Ah, so when the T-rex eats the dog, instead of a doghouse dangling on a chain from it's mouth, it will be your character dangling on a rope. :)
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I've yet to see Handle Animal skills NOT be enforced! :)
So its a DC10 to command it to do anything, including directing it to attack.
You could theoretically claim the animal is set to a guard mode, but then it will only attack whatever is melee attacking you, it wont necessarily be flanking or anything advanced, just shooting a straight line.
Dropping move actions to get it to attack WHO you want is a consuming process, and groanwortthy if you botch a roll...leaving the animal standing there practically useless.
A dog should have sufficient pack instinct to go for flanking on its own. I'd say, as default behaviour,
Attack: The dog moves to flank the same creature you are meleeing,Defend: The dog blocks the path of as many enemies as possible towards the person it's defending, then attacks enemies from that position.
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A dog should have sufficient pack instinct to go for flanking on its own. I'd say, as default behaviour,
Attack: The dog moves to flank the same creature you are meleeing,
Defend: The dog blocks the path of as many enemies as possible towards the person it's defending, then attacks enemies from that position.
Maybe.
Wolves DO.
A lot (most) of dogs DONT.
Look at the way most guard dogs are trained, they seek to interpose themselves between the owner and the aggressor. This is generally a default for 'guard' dogs.
Of course someone with Animal handling could likely stipulate that they had trained it instead as a pack hunter, but as a GM I'd expect them to maks such a note BEFORE play.
So no, its not generally the 'default mode'. I make a point of specifying 'flanker' when I take animals. GM's Ive had this with so far generally expect that teh dog will cut a straight line though, and its up to the owner to move into the flank.
Some real examples you might enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPHea8s7drE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiKyq56GizM&feature=related
All of that being said, if your GM runs it different then so be it - good times and an easy GM :)
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A dog trained to attack will likely (imho) flank with other combatants since it is NOT defending anything.If a pack of trained attack dogs is let loose to attack an enemy I would imagine they would go for flanks when possible. I would certainly run animals this way as a DM baring other circumstances (defending a lair, etc).
-James
As I was saying, most actually don't shoot for flanks naturally, its is a learned behaviour that some breeds are readily adapted to, and others are useless at it.
Most dedicated attack dogs shoot in a dead straight line and charge the opponent, seeking to grab and pull them down... they dont feint and lunge in like Wolves do. Certain breeds of hunting dogs, such as terriers, readily operate in a 'flanking' mindset (ie Wolves/Hyenas/Jackals) but most dogs aren't naturally disposed to the concept, and not normally trained to it either.
It would be something I'd expect a player specified he had trained it to do, and not something I'd generally accept as default from the shop.
On the other hand, this is all overcomplicating a simple 25-100gp purchase on something with next to no boxed text and that can't even be agreed what type/breed of dog it may or may not be, so if your GM allows flanking out of the box then Good times ahead and may the MetaGame gods continue to blow you fortunate winds :)
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Ah, so when the T-rex eats the dog, instead of a doghouse dangling on a chain from it's mouth, it will be your character dangling on a rope. :)
Haha yeah, I can see that and other tangle issues coming up for sure. Enemy circles the caster again and again or the dog attacks creature on one side of tree player attacks creature on other side..oops. Lucky for me not to many PFS scenarios are likely to have a T-rex in tier 1-2. regardless I would need free hands to cast soo give and take. Eventually my handle animal roll would get higher and in time the pooch wouldn't be much help and a summon spell would be more effective.