re: "Interesting stuff. Still, some of this is starting to go in a Turtledove direction in terms of what might have been. It can easily be argued that Germany would have upped their game in response to Britain upping theirs."
I was reading the Wiki article about the Battle of Britain; it looked like Germany vastly underestimated the stiffness of the British upper lip. They thought that they could cause the Londoners to flee their city, and totally rip down the government, at which point the Jackboots would cross the channel and take over that green and pleasant land.
In essence, their entire idea of what was going to be achieved by the London Blitz was "Turtledovian" *sic* in its composition. Such is the Achilles Heel often inherent in the mind of the megalomaniac though; total willingness to underestimate the opponent and, in doing so, set onesself up for utter failure.
Seriously people need to stop living under rocks.
Whoa dude! Speaking of living under rocks....
And none of that stuff on the NASA webpage is as cool as the hallucinogens we could've come up with for the same money.
Okay, just stop now, Tim Leary.
Okay, just stop now, Tim Leary.
And none of that stuff on the NASA webpage is as cool as the hallucinogens we could've come up with for the same money.
Leary, man! Now there was a trippy dude. Always ready with a few hits for a fella down on his luck. Good times, man...
Okay, just stop now, Tim Leary.
And none of that stuff on the NASA webpage is as cool as the hallucinogens we could've come up with for the same money.
Did a leprechaun just tell me what to do? I MUST be on hallucinogens.
re: "Interesting stuff. Still, some of this is starting to go in a Turtledove direction in terms of what might have been. It can easily be argued that Germany would have upped their game in response to Britain upping theirs."
I was reading the Wiki article about the Battle of Britain; it looked like Germany vastly underestimated the stiffness of the British upper lip. They thought that they could cause the Londoners to flee their city, and totally rip down the government, at which point the Jackboots would cross the channel and take over that green and pleasant land.
In essence, their entire idea of what was going to be achieved by the London Blitz was "Turtledovian" *sic* in its composition. Such is the Achilles Heel often inherent in the mind of the megalomaniac though; total willingness to underestimate the opponent and, in doing so, set onesself up for utter failure.
Fair, but once again, this is still going in a rather fantastic direction. What would have happened if the Germans came up with the atomic bomb first? What if bad weather caused the date of D-Day to be pushed up/back? What if operation Valkyrie worked? We're just not going to know. Not trying to say that you or the guy who wrote that wikipedia page are full of crap or ANYTHING like that, but it is speculation after a certain point.
Did a leprechaun just tell me what to do? I MUST be on hallucinogens.Okay, just stop now, Tim Leary.
And none of that stuff on the NASA webpage is as cool as the hallucinogens we could've come up with for the same money.
ogay.
I got 21 billion dollars, give or take, for the moon program.I got......a U.S. gnp in 1969 of roughly $4 trillion.
That doesn't look like a massive dealbreaker to me. Dad wasn't buying an Aston Martin to deal with his midlife crisis or nothing.
Fair, but once again, this is still going in a rather fantastic direction. What would have happened if the Germans came up with the atomic bomb first? What if bad weather caused the date of D-Day to be pushed up/back? What if operation Valkyrie worked? We're just not going to know. Not trying to say that you or the guy who wrote that wikipedia page are full of crap or ANYTHING like that, but it is speculation after a certain point.
I wasn't making any conjectures, merely stating the facts I thought.
Let me look over what I said again.(edit) oh; I see what you're saying now. I myself was kinda zeroing in on what I had bolded and not concentrating on the rest of it regarding speculation on the destruction of Fighter command/withdrawing to the midlands and whatnot. I have to admit to a moment of confusion there. I see what you're saying.
Did a leprechaun just tell me what to do? I MUST be on hallucinogens.Okay, just stop now, Tim Leary.
And none of that stuff on the NASA webpage is as cool as the hallucinogens we could've come up with for the same money.
ogay.
I got 21 billion dollars, give or take, for the moon program.I got......a U.S. gnp in 1969 of roughly $4 trillion.
That doesn't look like a massive dealbreaker to me. Dad wasn't buying an Aston Martin to deal with his midlife crisis or nothing.
All right, fine, the moon is cool.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csj7vMKy4EI
What would have happened if the Germans came up with the atomic bomb first?
Actually, the Germans did develop the first atomic bomb. Lucky for us, a group of time travelling monk/rock stars from the year 2312 came back in time, stole the bomb and all the plans for it, then banished any Nazi scientist with knowledge of how to build it to the alternate dimension prison where they also keep Ghengis Khan, Napolean, and that guy who came up with the idea for the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.
All right, fine, the moon is cool.www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csj7vMKy4EI
Allright. Now you're just being deliberously untuse.
deliberously untuse.
Now THAT sounds like a great name for a hal...uh, never mind.
Question for our Canadian and Australian brethren:
From when does your country mark its independence from the United Kingdom? Or does it?
I read on wikipedia about something called the Statute of Westminster that took place before WW II (and wasn't ratified in Australia until the middle of the war).
I also know that in both of your countries agents of the British monarchy are able to dissolve elected governments.
I'm just thinking out loud in response to the controversy between Lazar and Spanky above.
Thanks in advance for enlightening an ignorant Yank.
The Constitution of Australia came into force, on 1 January 1901, the colonies collectively became states of the Commonwealth of Australia.
Australia's constitution is a written one, based on the Westminster model of government, with federal elements modelled on the United States Constitution and a distinct separation of powers.
The present monarch is Queen Elizabeth II, styled Queen of Australia (separate in her role to the Queen of the UK). She is represented Federally by the Governor-General and in each of the states, by a governor, appointed directly by the Queen on the advice the respective state/Federal government.
The role is largely ceremonial and the Monarch has never exercised its power...... The Representative of the Monarch has once and that caused an awful stink see 1975 Australian constitutional crisis.
Which sparked the quote from the ousted Primeminister
“Ladies and gentlemen, well may we say "God Save the Queen", because nothing will save the Governor-General. The proclamation you have just heard was countersigned Malcolm Fraser, who will go down in history as Kerr's cur.”
During the crisis, Whitlam had alleged that Country Party Leader Anthony had close links to the CIA. Subsequently, it was alleged that Kerr acted on behalf of the United States government in procuring Whitlam's dismissal. The most common allegation is that the CIA influenced Kerr's decision to dismiss Whitlam. In 1966 Kerr had joined the Association for Cultural Freedom, a conservative group that was later revealed to have received CIA funding. Christopher Boyce, who was convicted for spying for the Soviet Union while an employee for a CIA contractor, claimed that the CIA wanted Whitlam removed from office because he threatened to close US military bases in Australia, including Pine Gap. Boyce said that Sir John Kerr was described by the CIA as "our man Kerr". Whitlam has written that Kerr did not need any encouragement from the CIA. However, he has also written that in 1977, United States Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher made a special trip to Sydney to meet with him and told him, on behalf of US President Jimmy Carter, of his willingness to work with whatever government Australians elected, and that the US would never again interfere with Australia's democratic processes.
What was that old chestnut about leading a horse to water?Allright. Now you're just being deliberously untuse.
All right, fine, the moon is cool.
There is neither chestnuts nor horses on the moon. I don't think there's much water, either.
Thank you to Msrs. Dwarf and H. for filling in an ignorant American goblin.
There is neither chestnuts nor horses on the moon. I don't think there's much water, either.
"Much" is a relative term: Space.com
Not nearly as much as here on Earth, but more than none. (Water, that is, not chestnuts or horses...)
Greg
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There is neither chestnuts nor horses on the moon. I don't think there's much water, either."Much" is a relative term: Space.com
Not nearly as much as here on Earth, but more than none. (Water, that is, not chestnuts or horses...)
Greg
Yes well he just proved my point. chestnuts and bliss also come to mind.
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Chestnuts roasting on an open fire,
Jack Frost nipping at your nose,
Yuletide carols being sung by a choir,
And folks dressed up like Eskimos.
Everybody knows a turkey and some mistletoe,
Help to make the season bright.
Tiny tots with their eyes all aglow,
Will find it hard to sleep tonight.
They know that Santa's on his way;
He's loaded lots of toys and goodies on his sleigh.
And every mother's child is gonna spy,
To see if reindeer really know how to fly.
And so I'm offering this simple phrase,
To kids from one to ninety-two,
Although it's been said many times, many ways,
Merry Christmas to you!
Yes well he just proved my point. chestnuts and bliss also come to mind.There is neither chestnuts nor horses on the moon. I don't think there's much water, either."Much" is a relative term: Space.com
Not nearly as much as here on Earth, but more than none. (Water, that is, not chestnuts or horses...)
Greg
Well, that can't be right, because otherwise I'd me much happier (when I'm not on hallucinogens).
Sorry I forgot to add to my post, the US interferes with our Democratic process more often and far less subtlety than the UK government. It annoys Australians a lot and is a cause of lingering ill will...
Sorry I forgot to add to my post, the US interferes with our Democratic process more often and far less subtlety than the UK government. It annoys Australians a lot and is a cause of lingering ill will...
Actually, that's not the US doing the interfering. In truth, a planet-wide conglomerate of genetically enhanced super penguins has been manipulating global events for some time now. There ultimate goal is to drive mankind into space exploration so that they can then freely convert the entire planet into an arctic environment where they would then reign supreme (after they wipe out the killer whales, that is).
Actually, that's not the US doing the interfering. In truth, a planet-wide conglomerate of genetically enhanced super penguins has been manipulating global events for some time now. There ultimate goal is to drive mankind into space exploration so that they can then freely convert the entire planet into an arctic environment where they would then reign supreme (after they wipe out the killer whales, that is).Sorry I forgot to add to my post, the US interferes with our Democratic process more often and far less subtlety than the UK government. It annoys Australians a lot and is a cause of lingering ill will...
Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.
Tony Giardino: So who's in this Pentavirate?Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"
Charlie Mackenzie: Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?
Stuart Mackenzie: Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly, smartass!
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Actually, that's not the US doing the interfering. In truth, a planet-wide conglomerate of genetically enhanced super penguins has been manipulating global events for some time now. There ultimate goal is to drive mankind into space exploration so that they can then freely convert the entire planet into an arctic environment where they would then reign supreme (after they wipe out the killer whales, that is).Sorry I forgot to add to my post, the US interferes with our Democratic process more often and far less subtlety than the UK government. It annoys Australians a lot and is a cause of lingering ill will...
Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.
Tony Giardino: So who's in this Pentavirate?
Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went t#*& up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"
Charlie Mackenzie: Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?
Stuart Mackenzie: Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly, smartass!
S! A! T U R! D A Y! NIGHT!
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Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.
Tony Giardino: So who's in this Pentavirate?
Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went t#** up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"
Charlie Mackenzie: Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?
Stuart Mackenzie: Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly, smartass!
Actually, that part about the addictive chemical is absolutely true. How else do you explain Kentucky Fried Crap being more popular than Popeyes?
Actually, that part about the addictive chemical is absolutely true. How else do you explain Kentucky Fried Crap being more popular than Popeyes?
You know I have lived with a couple of miles from a Popeyes for awhile now....and have never gone there....is really any good?
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You know I have lived with a couple of miles from a Popeyes for awhile now....and have never gone there....is really any good?
Actually, that part about the addictive chemical is absolutely true. How else do you explain Kentucky Fried Crap being more popular than Popeyes?
Yes. You should go there now. Drop everything you'er doing and go. Get a 4 piece dinner, if they have it. If not, get a 3 piece. Make sure it's spicy. And fries! Get some fries as your side. Or maybe red beans and rice - that's some good stuff.
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Actually, that part about the addictive chemical is absolutely true. How else do you explain Kentucky Fried Crap being more popular than Popeyes?Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.
Tony Giardino: So who's in this Pentavirate?
Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went t#** up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"
Charlie Mackenzie: Dad, how can you hate "The Colonel"?
Stuart Mackenzie: Because he puts an addictive chemical in his chicken that makes ya crave it fortnightly, smartass!
And all the Axe Murderers.
The Brits were never (and still aren't) our industrial competition, especially in the auto industry. The countries that would bring Detroit to it's knees would primarily be Germany and Japan. Detroit had a decades long breathing space because the auto industries for both countries was a pile of rubble by the time the Second World War ended.
The thing speaks for itsself. There was no destruction of the British industrial potential.
I don't know what I could have said to cause you to infer the bizarre questions you asked me in return. I have to wonder at your motives and intellectual honesty at this point.
Your point 2, however, is invalidated by the statement that there was no destruction of the British industrial potential.
Umm the industrial revolution..... until the end of the first world war The British Empire was the premier industrial, military and technological leader of the world.... The End of WWI marked the beginning of the decline and the other nations catching up (The US had begun to catch the British with the Civil War in several aspects but they were not the most powerful nation on the planet until the 1940's and that is with the USSR which had been devistated by both Stalin and the Nazis catching up quick).
WWII put the bullet in the head of the British Empire and its position as one of the industrial/military leaders.
The Brits were never (and still aren't) our industrial competition, especially in the auto industry. The countries that would bring Detroit to it's knees would primarily be Germany and Japan. Detroit had a decades long breathing space because the auto industries for both countries was a pile of rubble by the time the Second World War ended.
The thing speaks for itsself. There was no destruction of the British industrial potential.
I don't know what I could have said to cause you to infer the bizarre questions you asked me in return. I have to wonder at your motives and intellectual honesty at this point.
Your point 2, however, is invalidated by the statement that there was no destruction of the British industrial potential.Umm the industrial revolution..... until the end of the first world war The British Empire was the premier industrial, military and technological leader of the world.... The End of WWI marked the beginning of the decline and the other nations catching up (The US had begun to catch the British with the Civil War in several aspects but they were not the most powerful nation on the planet until the 1940's and that is with the USSR which had been devistated by both Stalin and the Nazis catching up quick).
WWII put the bullet in the head of the British Empire and its position as one of the industrial/military leaders.
Poppycock, balderdash and absolute piffle. The Sun shall never set upon the British Empire. We are simply letting the colonials have their day in the Sun before we retake them. We'll be coming for you soon, Auzzie.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Poppycock, balderdash and absolute piffle. The Sun shall never set upon the British Empire. We are simply letting the colonials have their day in the Sun before we retake them. We'll be coming for you soon, Auzzie.
"The Sun never sets on the British Empire because not even God would trust an Englishman in the dark."
As to the overarching intent of the Founding Fathers (and, yes, I know that Jefferson actually owned other human beings and Washington was arguably at least as racist as the population of his era, nonetheless), the ideology behind the Great Experiment naturally applies to all people, regardless of race, sex, creed, national origin, or whether it historically was applied to your ancestors. In the past the interpretation and advancement of the ideology was less than ideal, and there are issues now and will be issues in the future, but the idea itself is what drives modern Americans to a patriotic fervor.
Of all the nations in the world, what other one has a general citizenry that will so readily, unflinchingly, and uncoerced by its governing bodies--what other nation's people will fight for an idea? Not a parcel of land or a particular personality or a muddled religiosity, but an intangible, ephemeral idea.
Exactly what I was trying to get at in my post way up near the top. If it helps anybody to understand how important this idea is in my mind, know that I am a good chunk Native American. I grew up in a house with a mother who took every opportunity to remind me of how awful our white ancestors had been to our native ancestors. Though I have many times waved my fists and railed at the unfairness of it all, I still believe that the idea of what America is supposed to be is the most important thing. As I said before, those men were frail and faulty. But the Constitution, and the ideas it represents, are for everybody.
We are learning. Life is a struggle, a matter of wrestling with conscience and with what is important, to get to some higher place. Civilizations are like that, too. I'd say our whole species is about that. Learning, like life, is a messy process. And while that doesn't make what people have done to each other okay, it does frame it all in a way that makes it understandable. And that means it's something we can learn from.
What makes me a patriot, is that I understand and would fight to protect that potential. That's why I vote every time, even when I think the outcome is hopeless. That's why I protest and why I sign petitions and why I keep caring. This is about what could be, if we just keep at it.
"The Sun never sets on the British Empire because not even God would trust an Englishman in the dark."
Poppycock, balderdash and absolute piffle. The Sun shall never set upon the British Empire. We are simply letting the colonials have their day in the Sun before we retake them. We'll be coming for you soon, Auzzie.
And well he shouldn't. That's why we shall be trimphant. Even God is afraid of the yeoman of England. Tally-ho!!!
Poppycock, balderdash and absolute piffle. The Sun shall never set upon the British Empire. We are simply letting the colonials have their day in the Sun before we retake them. We'll be coming for you soon, Auzzie.The Brits were never (and still aren't) our industrial competition, especially in the auto industry. The countries that would bring Detroit to it's knees would primarily be Germany and Japan. Detroit had a decades long breathing space because the auto industries for both countries was a pile of rubble by the time the Second World War ended.
The thing speaks for itsself. There was no destruction of the British industrial potential.
I don't know what I could have said to cause you to infer the bizarre questions you asked me in return. I have to wonder at your motives and intellectual honesty at this point.
Your point 2, however, is invalidated by the statement that there was no destruction of the British industrial potential.Umm the industrial revolution..... until the end of the first world war The British Empire was the premier industrial, military and technological leader of the world.... The End of WWI marked the beginning of the decline and the other nations catching up (The US had begun to catch the British with the Civil War in several aspects but they were not the most powerful nation on the planet until the 1940's and that is with the USSR which had been devistated by both Stalin and the Nazis catching up quick).
WWII put the bullet in the head of the British Empire and its position as one of the industrial/military leaders.
How much did Bangladesh win by...? Great game its always good when the "colonials" rub your nose in it...
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I respect anyone with strong beliefs and access to lethal weapons.
Preferably from as far away as possible.
o_o
Yes. You should go there now. Drop everything you'er doing and go. Get a 4 piece dinner, if they have it. If not, get a 3 piece. Make sure it's spicy. And fries! Get some fries as your side. Or maybe red beans and rice - that's some good stuff.You know I have lived with a couple of miles from a Popeyes for awhile now....and have never gone there....is really any good?
Actually, that part about the addictive chemical is absolutely true. How else do you explain Kentucky Fried Crap being more popular than Popeyes?
I will give it a try today...maybe tomorrow...I like good chicken....
Question for our Canadian and Australian brethren:
From when does your country mark its independence from the United Kingdom? Or does it?
[...]
I also know that in both of your countries agents of the British monarchy are able to dissolve elected governments.
I have neither the good fortune to be Canadian nor the good fortune to be Australian, nor am I even a British subject (But I do watch Doctor Who.) but I know a little about this and I'm an insufferable know-it-all. I do live only ninety miles from Canada which has to be almost as good as seeing it from my house.
The Dominion of Canada was established in 1867. That's sort of an independence day, and it's Canada Day, but the UK parliament retained total control of foreign policy and had prerogatives to overrule the Canadian parliament. Also the act accomplishing this was one of the UK parliament and Westminster reserved to itself the power to revise the document or pass more in the same lines.
I'm a bit foggy on the period between here and WWI, but at the conclusion of the Great War the Empire in general was less than thrilled with the fact that the UK declaring war immediately put them into the war too. In Paris the various dominions managed to get themselves somewhat independent seats at the table rather than being represented solely by Lloyd George's government.
Then in '31 the Statute of Westminster more or less gives the dominions independent foreign policy. You could call that an independence day. From this point the British monarch is King/Queen of Canada as a separate office. When Edward wanted to abdicate the Commonwealth realms had to all sign off on his ceasing to be their king.
That's pretty independent by normal standards, but Canada went a step farther in the 80s and claimed its constitution entirely from Westminster. One could count that too.
In the Canadian case, and I understand also in the other Commonwealth realms, the governor-general isn't really an agent of the British monarchy in anything but theory. The Queen picks from a list of names given to her by the government concerned, which usually has exactly one entry. It's a bit of legal kabuki, but governors-general aren't really responsible to London. When they're behaving themselves, they only dissolve parliaments at the request of the PM or in other fairly well-understood constitutional situations. They can also, as the Canadian governor-general did a few years ago, refuse that request if it seems too soon after the most recent election. Like the powers of the British monarch, this is usually governed by more convention than set law.
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This seemed like a better place to display this idiocy:
The problem is, when someone says 'American Patriot' outside of the US, this kinda idiocy comes to mind.
Not helping!
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.....This seemed like a better place to display this idiocy:
The problem is, when someone says 'American Patriot' outside of the US, this kinda idiocy comes to mind.
Not helping!
That is so depressing.... so very very depressing...
Can we just not go there at all. I find the entire idea absurd. Why would god pick and choose when to punish people like that? Especially punishing people that were not even involved. It just does not make sense on so many levels.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Can we just not go there at all. I find the entire idea absurd. Why would god pick and choose when to punish people like that? Especially punishing people that were not even involved. It just does not make sense on so many levels.
You're right. Edited.
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This seemed like a better place to display this idiocy:The problem is, when someone says 'American Patriot' outside of the US, this kinda idiocy comes to mind.
Outside and inside.