This was inspired by another thread.
Previously, I certainly considered myself patriotic. I served my country in the Armed Forces. I was even in Military Intelligence, which I expect, would have and even higher number of people with a strong sense of patriotism. After all, you must be willing to do things which can, sometimes, be considered morally questionable (spying and all that it entails) by merit of believing your side is in the right.
As I have gotten older, I have wondered if patriotism is all it is cracked up to be.
Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. --George Jean Nathan
It seems a common theme in some circles to somehow suggest an opponent is inferior by questioning their patriotism. "Why do you hate America?" This accusation often times has little to no relevance to the issue or the particular stance on that issue.
Besides, it seems to me possible one could be unpatriotic without hating one's country. One could feel that no one country is above the others.
What exactly does patriotism mean and why is it something to strive for?
This may sound like a silly question, but I am trying to understand this from a very basic level. Why is pride in one's country a 'good' thing?
Pride in one's work, I can understand. It is something you did. But in your country, simply because you were born there? Or does it mean more, like in the example of one's work. Where, if you take pride in something, you will strive to make it the best you can?
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This may sound like a silly question, but I am trying to understand this from a very basic level. Why is pride in one's country a 'good' thing?
Pride in one's work, I can understand. It is something you did. But in your country, simply because you were born there? Or does it mean more, like in the example of one's work. Where, if you take pride in something, you will strive to make it the best you can?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by good. Do you mean 'desirable by other people'?
I compare patriotism to faith. I think it's perfectly fine as long as it's not blindly ascribed to or results in anyone being harmed.
+1
To my brand of thinking, blind patriotism often seems mad (the crazy kind) or false or angry. Worse, blind devotion to the symbols of patriotism rubs me the wrong way even more. Flags are great for figuring out who your allies are in the thick of some skirmish, but they are not your country and they are not what matters most about your country. Neither is a crew-cut or a pin on your lapel.
I consider myself a very patriotic person. My patriotism stems from my faith in the Constitution. That Madison and co. maybe knew something of what they were doing, and that they were doing it with good intentions, however frail and imperfect they may have been as human beings. That it is a strong and flexible document that can handle all the burdens put upon it without breaking. That it represents an ideal we can all believe in, and best, that it can in time be perfected. And that it can include all of us.
To me, America is a great experiment of humanity. Fail or succeed, the Constitution is the heart of an experiment in idealism. A document into which all the potential of what people could become, was intended to be poured.
I guess on the one hand I am a realist. I expect the worst from government, politicians, and angry people in general. But on the other hand, I am a great optimist. I believe that ideas can change the world, and that the best of them ought to be defended.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by good. Do you mean 'desirable by other people'?
I think that works for this discussion.
There's often a fine line between being a patriot who's proud of his country and a racist jerk who thinks every other country else is inferior.
Sometimes it's in the eye of the beholder.
Sometimes a person is the one and another says that the person is really the other.
It's complicated.
The analogy to faith is very ample.
I'm proud to be a German. Well, actually, I'm more proud to be a Saarlänner. I've been called a nazi because of that. I've also seen neo-nazis call themselves patriots.
I've also seen patriots in other countries. I've seen them being called racists. I've also seen racists calling themselves patriots in other countries.
And sometimes, a guy has the exact same views as another, but he'll call himself a patriot and the other guy a racist.
This may sound like a silly question, but I am trying to understand this from a very basic level. Why is pride in one's country a 'good' thing?
Pride in one's work, I can understand. It is something you did. But in your country, simply because you were born there? Or does it mean more, like in the example of one's work. Where, if you take pride in something, you will strive to make it the best you can?
Patriotism is a complicated thing in Australia.... political patriotism is frowned on... Pride in our sporting and military accomplishments are high and can be carried to excess...
Patriotism is pride in what has been produced in the land in which you were born, in the family, and people with which you share the land. In essence it is something that we have carried with us from our tribal history and it is an important part of the cohesiveness of the "tribe" that you belong to.
Like all things Patriotism in moderation can be a good thing in excess it can cause a lot of problems.
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I think Patriotism as an ideal is a good thing. I causes pride and pride in one's country to care what is going on and have a stake in things. Without that stake that concern ... I am not sure that nations become better. Where we end up having troubles is when the pride is used to bring others down in order to bring your own nation up. I think it is better to have patriotism and care what goes on and have pride for past deeds than not to care at all.
One example I can think of is a fraternity, you create a brotherhood and place you care about. You take actions as a group and own up to those actions and hope that things go well that you have a group that you can be proud of and represent the sort of things you stand for. yet because that group is made up of inviduals each has their own idea of doign things, so one can not control those actions. The fraternity may go and raise a bunch of money for a charity and everyone is happy and feels good about that. Yet then that evening one of those same bothers goes and gets drunk and drives a car and hits and injures someone else. Something you would not be proud of. Yet you are still judged by his action. (much like a country). You can only hope to redeem yourself and your actions in the eyes of others and love what that group stands for. I see my country the same way my patriotism is the same way. I love the ideals but I don't always love the actions it takes and many times I am ashamed of what takes place. But I don't think any nation does not have highs and lows, there are things many nations can be proud of and none who can say they are without blame.
Patriotism is a feeling and can be a wonderful tool and many people who talk out against their nation are many times being more patriotic than those who blindly say their nation is best and no one should say bad things about it. Just one man's humble opinion.
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What exactly does patriotism mean and why is it something to strive for?
Here is a test of where you stand:
The only grounds under which a life may be taken is if said individual has resisted arrest under charge of Treason. Consequently No one may take a life unless that victim has been charged with Treason and has resisted arrest under charge of Treason. Thus taking a life without the victim having been charged with Treason and having resisted arrest under charge of Treason is an act of Treason.
I like Oscar Wilde quotes. Here's one:
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
I think that got quoted by Sean Connery in The Rock.
Besides, it seems to me possible one could be unpatriotic without hating one's country. One could feel that no one country is above the others.
Well, that pretty much describes me.
I consider the fact that I happen to have been born in the U.S. to be a geographical accident, rather than a binding obligation of loyalty to the country as an institution. I share many of the ideals that the U.S. is founded on, and I consider it part of my basic responsibility as an ethical human being to obey the law of the land, absent some compelling ethical reason to disobey them. Then again, civil disobedience to protest a law I consider unethical is also part of what I consider to be my basic responsibility as an ethical human being. I also consider it part of my responsibility as an ethical human being to contribute to my community and society (e.g. by paying taxes and volunteering in my community, etc.) and to participate in the governance of that community and society by whatever means are available to me. But I'd feel those responsibilities no matter what country I was a citizen of, and no matter where I happened to reside at any given time.
On the whole, I think the U.S. is better than many countries, and worse than some, depending on the context.
Many people, including myself, would call my stance unpatriotic. Personally, I don't really understand why being 'unpatriotic' is considered such a bad thing by so many people.
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Patriotism...is the last refuge of the scoundrel. (Samuel Johnson, British writer and patriot)
That is to say it is not a bad thing in and of itself but is often used as a shield or crutch for false-patriots.
I do not consider myself patriotic but I do take pride in some of my nations' institutions (public health care for one). People who come across as strongly patriotic are unsettling to me.
I'll not speak for anyone else, but to me patriotism can be good or bad, and can also be adopted by either side of a national conflict. If you are a Libyan patriot, maybe you're fighting for political and economic freedom against a corrupt regime. Or maybe a Libyan patriot is a loyalist to the current Libyan government, which most Libyans have known as their government their whole life.
So, clearly being a patriot while gunning down peaceful protesters is a bad thing. Patriotically loading people into ovens is evil. So being patriotic or nationalistic is not intrinsically virtuous.
However, as an American, and a fan of economic and political liberty, I think being loyal to the principles that founded the country is virtuous. I think other nations want what we have (or had), and I think we ought to maximize our strength and prosperity so despots don't gain strongholds in international circles, and I firmly believe in the concept of American exceptionalism.
For friends overseas, this doesn't mean I think my country is better than your country so much as it means here we (and our friends) have the chance to spread freedom, prosperity and generosity in a way that others cannot. We became great through fortune, through hard work and through the blessings of our Creator, and we ought to share those blessings, of our own volition, with the world beyond.
Not everyone agrees, I know, but in a world where Libya had a seat on the UN human rights commission and the Secretary General can appoint his son to investigate his own corruption, there have to be points of light. I would prefer we be one of those than not be. Thus I am, under my own operating definition, a patriot.
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To me patriotism has nothing to do in the land were you are born...many people have come here from other lands and became patriots.
Patriotism a what is used to keep society together. It is a common believe our country is great. I respect the ideals this country is built on and would be prepared to stand by my fellow citizens and die to protect it. It replaced the absolute power of the kings and nobility...and to a certain extent relgion. remember the idea of dieing for ones country is a relatively new idea.
Patriotism is not good or evil. It is really just a tool that unites us. Being a patriot does not neccessarily means you have to think other counties suck...or turn a blind eye to what is wrong in your country.
I am a patriot...I really believe the principles this country was built on...even if out leaders have forgotten it...or willfuly ignore it...or just plain piss on it. But than agin out leaders really are not what a patriot should be lotal too...but it is unfortunate that some people(ok a lot) tend think it does...and to serve it blindly and unthinkingly....
Anyway that is my take on patriotism.
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dang it, i thought this thread was about football...
Isn't that an irrational number?
Patriotism really has, or should have, nothing to do with the actual land. Patriotism is a pride in the country, it's people and it's origin.
Americans are by far the most patriotic people on the planet. No, this is not my opinion - in fact I would never have guessed we were as much as we all complain about our government. I know a lot of people around the world and all of them have commented on this to me. They see an American football game, for example, and see everyone standing and singing the national anthem - rarely will you see even half a stadium in other countries stand and sing their anthem.
Americans may complain about our government and each other but someone insults an American or kills one and every American (or nearly all) is willing to go stomp some butt.
We take pride in our origins, our freedoms, the fact we as a country are one of a kind, the fact we have gone through a lot as a country and we have risen to the top.
God knows we are far from perfect and our government is a bunch of lying prinks but we, as Americans, regardless of religion, sexual orientation or political views are first and foremost - Americans and have always stood as one.
This may sound like a silly question, but I am trying to understand this from a very basic level. Why is pride in one's country a 'good' thing?
Pride in one's work, I can understand. It is something you did. But in your country, simply because you were born there? Or does it mean more, like in the example of one's work. Where, if you take pride in something, you will strive to make it the best you can?
All of my responses are based on my personal opinion and most of you know I am a rabid non-christian conservative so take them as you will.
The reason pride in ones country is a good thing is for the exact same reason as haveing pride in your work because it helps to make you want to do/build up or make it even better.
Every person has some form of national pride and that is a very good thing. Every nation also has had it's share of mistakes, there is not a single nation on this planet that has not done some incredably horrible things in it's history but they learn and move on from them.
Blind obediance to your government is NOT the same as patriotism, nor is haveing a true diffrence of opinion unpatriotic.
I look back on what this great coutry has accomplished and I am honestly filled with a sense of wonder at all the great things we as americans can lay claim to as part of our national heritage.
Even though I am very not pleased with the powers that are currently in control I will do my best as a law abideing citizen to make peaceful changes to build the country I want it to be and not just sit on my butt and not vote and insult anyone who disagrees with me.
I'm an American because I was born here. I guess I'm luck that being the case, but I dont consider myself to be patriotic. To me being partiotic means having an investment or at least feeling invested in your country and the people in it as a whole. I'd be lying if I said that I was.
When people talk about the founding fathers and thier intentions for this country I know that because of my race and the race of my ancestors that I wasnt part of that plan. There's a bunch of other reasons of why I'm hesitant to call myself patriotic but most of it has to do with how we treat each other in this country. I'm of the strong belief that no one hates Americans more than other Americans.
We dont like each other here. We REALLY don't.
I just dont trust my so called countrymen to be fair or to have any semblance of compassion toward each other. The days where I'm actually proud to be an American are few and far between, but I gotta say that when those times do come it feels great.
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God knows we are far from perfect and our government is a bunch of lying prinks but we, as Americans, regardless of religion, sexual orientation or political views are first and foremost - Americans and have always stood as one.
Just saying, this is far less true lately than it ever has been before, and we have the current political climate to thank for it. (This point has been ninja'd by ShinHakkaider above)
My favorite commentary on patriotism is by Jackson Browne.
Look, I mean, it means different things to different people. To me, it means wanting the best for (and from!) your country. It means accepting the good that America (in my case) offers, and being willing to work in order to make the bad disappear. To some, it seems to mean, 'take the good with the bad, have pride in the whole kit 'n caboodle', and that, I cannot buy into.
But why is it good? Why is it desirable by other people? Because someone who's patriotic is guaranteed to be on your side, if you are working for the good of your country. The problems begin when we can't come to ANY consensus about what is or what isn't good for our country, as is now the case in the land of the free and home of the brave.
I'm an American because I was born here. I guess I'm luck that being the case, but I dont consider myself to be patriotic. To me being partiotic means having an investment or at least feeling invested in your country and the people in it as a whole. I'd be lying if I said that I was.
When people talk about the founding fathers and thier intentions for this country I know that because of my race and the race of my ancestors that I wasnt part of that plan. There's a bunch of other reasons of why I'm hesitant to call myself patriotic but most of it has to do with how we treat each other in this country. I'm of the strong belief that no one hates Americans more than other Americans.
We dont like each other here. We REALLY don't.
I just dont trust my so called countrymen to be fair or to have any semblance of compassion toward each other. The days where I'm actually proud to be an American are few and far between, but I gotta say that when those times do come it feels great.
Sadly - all true.
However, Americans are like many siblings - they will pick on one another, treat each other like so much steaming cr*p but let someone else pick on that person and it hits the proverbial fan.
Patriotism is the slippery slope that leads to nationalism. Like religion, it is too often used as a justification for the worst, evil-monkey, scumbag behavior human beings are capable of. To be proud of yourself, your family, your neighborhood, town, country, planet, none of these things are in and of themselves harmful, but when that pride is used to foster "us vs. them" mob-mentality BS, wars happen and innocent people die. And the standard defense against reasonable questioning is, "We're doin' it fer yer freedom, you pinko commie f@ggit!" or "It is the will of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!"
This is by far the most depressing thread ever.
I winz the interwebs!!!
God knows we are far from perfect and our government is a bunch of lying prinks but we, as Americans, regardless of religion, sexual orientation or political views are first and foremost - Americans and have always stood as one.
Civil War?
The inability to keep Treaties with the Native peoples?Reservations?
Segregation?
Prohibition?
Vietnam war peace protests? -Kent State
Internment of US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII?
MKULTRA?
Tuskegee syphilis experiment?
Lots of standing as one in the past
EDIT: Dont get me wrong my country has done things that were just as bad to its own people... I am suggesting that there were no good old days or golden age.
God knows we are far from perfect and our government is a bunch of lying prinks but we, as Americans, regardless of religion, sexual orientation or political views are first and foremost - Americans and have always stood as one.Civil War?
The inability to keep Treaties with the Native peoples?
Reservations?
Segregation?
Prohibition?
Vietnam war peace protests? -Kent State
Internment of US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII?
MKULTRA?
Tuskegee syphilis experiment?Lots of standing as one in the past
MKULTRA?!?!? We have that?
MKULTRA?!?!? We have that?
God knows we are far from perfect and our government is a bunch of lying prinks but we, as Americans, regardless of religion, sexual orientation or political views are first and foremost - Americans and have always stood as one.Civil War?
The inability to keep Treaties with the Native peoples?
Reservations?
Segregation?
Prohibition?
Vietnam war peace protests? -Kent State
Internment of US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII?
MKULTRA?
Tuskegee syphilis experiment?Lots of standing as one in the past
The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over thirty universities and institutions were involved in an "extensive testing and experimentation" program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens "at all social levels, high and low, native Americans and foreign." Several of these tests involved the administration of LSD to "unwitting subjects in social situations." At least one death, that of Dr. Olson, resulted from these activities. The Agency itself acknowledged that these tests made little scientific sense. The agents doing the monitoring were not qualified scientific observers
I wish recent administrations would douse us with LSD instead of plunging us into a recession that is destroying the middle class.
This is by far the most depressing thread ever.
Can't be. Nobody has endorsed genocide yet.
EDIT: Dont get me wrong my country has done things that were just as bad to its own people... I am suggesting that there were no good old days or golden age.
The current era of political polarization in the US is nothing new. It's the normal state of affairs. This fact is only obscured by most American political pundits having grown up in one of the very few periods of considerable consensus in US politics.
Close enough. The thread seems like one long winded Godwin.This is by far the most depressing thread ever.Can't be. Nobody has endorsed genocide yet.
We must be reading different threads.
You are starting to sound a little like Chicken Little, CJ. I have found this thread to be very enlightening. What is it you find so depressing?
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The US enjoys the highest rate of both legal and illegal immigration in the entire world; in fact, twice as many people immigrated to the US in the last five years than the next ranking nine nations combined.
I'm trying very desperately to ape Samnell's patience, but it is exceedingly difficult when opinions are espoused based on the smallest possible sample available (one's hometown), sensationalist news headlines (CNN and Fox), and irrational, wretched memes no truer than Inuits having 1,000 words for snow!
I've lived and worked in every region of the US, and 12 countries East to West: I have never personally seen any country's citizenry come close to the patriotic fervor of Americans in general (though both the UK and Sweden rank a very close 2nd).
Americans are quite often seen as the most vitriolic people, internally and externally, on the planet--or at least in the developed world--simply because they're passionate: a very common mistake, confusing vitriol for passion, but depressing when I hear Americans doing it about other Americans--and obviously thinking of a less than .0001% of the entire population.
Before you further mistake racial and cultural tension in America for internal strife, don't forget that the US has the highest percentage of multinational spread of any other country on the planet, bar-none. Comparing the internal pacificity of the US with, say, Norway or Switzerland, or even Germany is like comparing a chocolate covered frozen banana with a 3 pound banana split, if you'll pardon the analogy.
As to the overarching intent of the Founding Fathers (and, yes, I know that Jefferson actually owned other human beings and Washington was arguably at least as racist as the population of his era, nonetheless), the ideology behind the Great Experiment naturally applies to all people, regardless of race, sex, creed, national origin, or whether it historically was applied to your ancestors. In the past the interpretation and advancement of the ideology was less than ideal, and there are issues now and will be issues in the future, but the idea itself is what drives modern Americans to a patriotic fervor.
Of all the nations in the world, what other one has a general citizenry that will so readily, unflinchingly, and uncoerced by its governing bodies--what other nation's people will fight for an idea? Not a parcel of land or a particular personality or a muddled religiosity, but an intangible, ephemeral idea.
I've lived and worked in every region of the US, and 12 countries East to West: I have never personally seen any country's citizenry come close to the patriotic fervor of Americans in general (though both the UK and Sweden rank a very close 2nd).
I wouldn't say patriotism, with regards to the UK (disregarding the individual nationalism thing) as most people are fairly critical of the country itself. No, I would say my countrymen prefer to go with xenophobia as a national pass-time.
I'm not a fan of pride, personally. Loving the cultural traditions of your country is not a bad thing. Holding them up to be a wondrous achievement over others is. At least, that's my opinion on the matter, I'm not trying to present this as uncontrovertable fact.
Before you further mistake racial and cultural tension in America for internal strife, don't forget that the US has the highest percentage of multinational spread of any other country on the planet, bar-none.
Including Canada? Mosaic vs. Melting Pot may be worth considering here as well.
Of all the nations in the world, what other one has a general citizenry that will so readily, unflinchingly, and uncoerced by its governing bodies--what other nation's people will fight for an idea? Not a parcel of land or a particular personality or a muddled religiosity, but an intangible, ephemeral idea.
Religion is an idea. I don't mean this as a anti-religious statement, merely that it is, by its very nature, just as ephemeral as the ideas a United States citizen might fight for. I don't think it's too far abstracted from fighting for an idea of freedom, or democracy.
Fighting and dying for patriotism alone is like fighting and dying over what is the best color. "It's blue!" "F U, it's green!" [gunshots]