the game has no general 'this is what happens when you fire from a different sized body' rule. All of he rules are specific to the Spells that change your size. which would not be so bad Except they are not consistent in hoow they work.
Basically if a spell changes your size and that spell does not address what happens to arrows fired while under the effects of that spell then nothing happens.
so in giant form you could fire giant arrows, but not while enlarged.
the game has no general 'this is what happens when you fire from a different sized body' rule. All of he rules are specific to the Spells that change your size. which would not be so bad Except they are not consistent in hoow they work.
Basically if a spell changes your size and that spell does not address what happens to arrows fired while under the effects of that spell then nothing happens.
so in giant form you could fire giant arrows, but not while enlarged.
I'd prolly have the arrows shrink back one round after being shot to prevent abuse with such things.
Right, and that would be consistent with Enlarge person. But on the Reverse Reduce person specifically says arrows remain small.
It would possibly be a good policy to have a General 'all arrows return to their original size when fired' rule but it would be a house rule. Just a perfectly reasonable one.
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On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
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On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
Umm....Wow! Just Wow!
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Umm....Wow! Just Wow!On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
As I said, just curious.
Right, and that would be consistent with Enlarge person. But on the Reverse Reduce person specifically says arrows remain small.
It would possibly be a good policy to have a General 'all arrows return to their original size when fired' rule but it would be a house rule. Just a perfectly reasonable one.
Well it actually isn't a houserule, it is the rule following enlarge and reduce person.
You are right, the rules for enlarge and reduce person aren't exactly consistant, but the arrow changes to normal size in both cases.
For reduce person, the arrow becomes normal sized, BUT the damage is based on the weapon that fired it.
For enlarge person, the arrow becomes normal sized, AND the damage is based on the size of the arrow.
It only really makes sense, if you make the assumption that the damage of a projectile weapon depends on both the projectile and the weapon in question.
I would guess that it is a balance issue, so archers won't benefit too much from reduce person. But enlarge person on the other hand, isn't a very good choice for an archer, so allowing them to gain higher weapon damage from ranged weapons wouldn't be problematic.
It would be nice if archers could actually benefit from reduce person so that it was a worthwhile option like enlarge person is. Letting arrow damage return to original size would definitely offset the loss of 1 str mod.
The only reason I am concerned with that, is that it is not much of a trade-off in my eyes.
Melee enlarge person: You gain +1 damage, higher weapon damage (another +1 mostly), and reach. The drawback is -2 AC.
If you get normal weapon damage with ranged attack you gain:
Archer reduce person: +2 to-hit, +2 AC. The drawback is -2 str which does necessarily translate into -1 damage (although for full archer builds it would).
Right, and that would be consistent with Enlarge person. But on the Reverse Reduce person specifically says arrows remain small.
It would possibly be a good policy to have a General 'all arrows return to their original size when fired' rule but it would be a house rule. Just a perfectly reasonable one.
Well it actually isn't a houserule, it is the rule following enlarge and reduce person.
You are right, the rules for enlarge and reduce person aren't exactly consistant, but the arrow changes to normal size in both cases.
For reduce person, the arrow becomes normal sized, BUT the damage is based on the weapon that fired it.
For enlarge person, the arrow becomes normal sized, AND the damage is based on the size of the arrow.
It only really makes sense, if you make the assumption that the damage of a projectile weapon depends on both the projectile and the weapon in question.
I would guess that it is a balance issue, so archers won't benefit too much from reduce person. But enlarge person on the other hand, isn't a very good choice for an archer, so allowing them to gain higher weapon damage from ranged weapons wouldn't be problematic.
If it applies to anything other than Enlarge or Reduce person then it is a house rule. As i said PF doesnt have a general rule for this. If the powers involved (ie giant form) do not address it then nothin changes in the weapon.
I think using enlarge person as a Model is a good idea, but it isnt part of the rules. its likely Intended but not RAW.
Unless stated otherwise, all your gear remains altered for the duration of the spell.
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On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
I was thinking about a Huge Red Dragon Archer with a Massive Bow and Arrow last night...
On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
From a realism standpoint (other than having a lot of trouble with timing):
As soon as the arrow is returned to its original size, the mass of the (much) larger object will force it to land almost immediately. The amount of momentum on the flying arrow is not proportionally enlarged when the arrow reverts to original form - and the momentum is pitifully inadequate to keep an arrow that size zipping along.
Mostly true, but it might not be +2 AC. It could only be +1 ac if you are wearing armor and are already at or above your max dex bonus, and if you are not wearing armor, an ac boost might be a necessary buff anyway.Now, I just think that reach makes those 2 relatively close. An extra full hit bonus attack each round on an approaching target seems pretty nice before we bring in spending feats to make it better(combat reflexes, imp trip, etc).
Enlarge person was actually changed from 3.5, where projectile damage was based on the weapon that fired them.
Not sure what the reason for this change was, since enlarge person hardly is a good choice for an archer either way.|
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On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
From a realism standpoint (other than having a lot of trouble with timing):
As soon as the arrow is returned to its original size, the mass of the (much) larger object will force it to land almost immediately. The amount of momentum on the flying arrow is not proportionally enlarged when the arrow reverts to original form - and the momentum is pitifully inadequate to keep an arrow that size zipping along.
You just answered how reduce person effects a ranged fighter, but since for that, it is not a 4 size level change, just a 1, so the arrow does not drop, just go slower.... Now for enlarge person....
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On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
From a realism standpoint (other than having a lot of trouble with timing):
As soon as the arrow is returned to its original size, the mass of the (much) larger object will force it to land almost immediately. The amount of momentum on the flying arrow is not proportionally enlarged when the arrow reverts to original form - and the momentum is pitifully inadequate to keep an arrow that size zipping along.
So, I wait till right before the arrow impacts and shout it, or right as it hits....
On a similar note:
What happens when you take a tree trunk, craft a Colossal arrow out of it, use shrink item on it, fire it out of a bow, and while it is in the air, shout the command word to return it to full size?
Does it do damage as a Sized M arrow (1d8) or as a sized C arrow (6d8 best guess)?
Not really planning on doing this (crazy expensive from a cost/time point of view for 1 shot), but just curious how people would rule this.
Well I would rule impossible to shoot the arrow, due to the reason LoreKeeper stated.
What I would let you do instead, was to shoot the arrow above the target(s), speak the command word, and use the falling objects rules. The damage would be based on height, and the height you were aiming for, would determine how difficulty of the roll.
Edit: on a boring RAW note, it might be illegal, as speaking a command word is a standard action...
If you were to be particularly nasty, you shrink the treetrunk (or whatever item) and make it into a clothlike substance. The you tie it around the tip of your arrow, and shoot it at the enemy. Once the arrow (and cloth) is lodged deep inside your target, you speak the command word...
Doesn't your gear meld with you when you polymorph? If that's the case, doesn't that make the question kinda moot?
You could drop your gear, then polymorph, then pick it up against and start firing arrows. If you do that though, your gear remains at its original size.
I mentioned that this was assuming you polymorphed into a humanoid form.Doesn't your gear meld with you when you polymorph? If that's the case, doesn't that make the question kinda moot?
You could drop your gear, then polymorph, then pick it up against and start firing arrows. If you do that though, your gear remains at its original size.
Can you even change into a large or bigger creature?
If the form is that of a humanoid, the spell functions as alter self.Alter self: When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any
Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type.
I'm not sure you can even change to a larger humanoid.
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body."
Your gear only automelds if you are turning into 1 of the above listed. Otherwise the GM asks the question, is it humanoid shaped.
"Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size. "
So giant form turning into a troll would do the job and your gear would resize. Alter self allows you to turn into a medium or small humanoid. So if you are medium and you can alter self to shrink down to small.
I was wondering about shooting arrows in these 2 situations.
A giant couldn't turn into a troll. It is not small or medium. It doesn't matter what the starting size is, only the ending size.
So it would resize to be medium or small.
EDIT:
Again, polymorph or greater polymorph works like alter self for humanoids. I could not find other spells to do the same, so all humanoid morphs are alter self.
Giants are a humanoid subtype now. Giant form spells cover them, as well as higher polymorphs.
Giants are a humanoid subtype now. Giant form spells cover them, as well as higher polymorphs.
No polymorph other than polymorph any object covers it. So if you use polymorph any object on yourself, where does it state that your equipment changes? It doesn't. Also, if the bow is enchanted or magical polymorph any object will not work on it.
So only the giant form spells would work here, not polymorph. Short of that, no spells would work to change the damage of a bow, and you max out at a Huge creature.
Don't forget shapechange.