| Jaçinto |
Alright, after playing the current version of the gunslinger in our Kingmaker game, I noticed a few things. I can accept that it is an alternate for the fighter, so it would share some things in common with it. So what does it get? The fighter's base attack bonus, weapon proficiencies, and skills per level. Sure the BAB is nice, but they don't really need the same weapon proficiencies when they are designed for guns, so it can get a specialized set or something similar. Also, the fighter gets access to all the armor types, but the gunslinger does not. Maybe to balance out this bit, let the gunslinger have a weapon proficiency that the fighter does not get. Since this is clearly based on old westerns, why not the lasso? It's an exotic weapon so nobody gets it as a base anyways, and it fits the class. After all, rogue gets hand crossbows as an example. Since the gunslinger does not get all the armor proficiencies, let them get the lasso as something the fighter doesn't get. Now, before someone says that they do get the gun for free and the fighter doesn't, remember this. The Exotic Weapon Proficiency lets you use one specific exotic weapon, and the alpha book hasn't stated guns were exotic yet, plus there is that amateur gunslinger feat and it does not require you to have "exotic weapon: (A firearm)". So they don't seem to be exotic right now, but I am fine with them becoming them later. Also, the fighter does have a massive bonus that the gunslinger does not get, which is the massive feat progression. I would be fine with this, if maybe the gunslinger got more than two skills plus int per level. The fighter is fine with that because all the feats they get more than makes up for it, since there are feats that let you get bonuses to skills anyways. I am fully aware that the alternate class is currently an alpha, but it is seriously underpowered compared to the class it is being switched out for right now so I expect they will be powering it up soon to be on par. But yeah, that is one simple thing I would like to see would be a lasso for the gunslinger. I used the Lasso last night on the Stag Lord in kingmaker and dragged him around with my horse until he bled to death. I love that simple piece of rope with a knot in it. As a side note and a bit off topic, in some book can we see rope based weapons? Like, the monkey's fist knot. Simple to make, hurts like all hell. Eventually in kingmaker, I fully intend to make one of my ropes into a noose, get it over an enemy's neck and make him swing from a tree. Can be done in combat, just need to be quick and have a good CMD. Sorry for not breaking this into paragraphs as it is 2:48 am and I am really sleepy.
| Freesword |
Now, before someone says that they do get the gun for free and the fighter doesn't, remember this. The Exotic Weapon Proficiency lets you use one specific exotic weapon, and the alpha book hasn't stated guns were exotic yet, plus there is that amateur gunslinger feat and it does not require you to have "exotic weapon: (A firearm)". So they don't seem to be exotic right now, but I am fine with them becoming them later.
I suggest you re-read page 6 of the playtest document which has the rules on on firearms. It clearly references Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) multiple times. This combined with the fact that the Gunslinger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all firearms (indicating that they are neither simple or martial weapons leaving only exotic unless a new category and feat are created) clearly indicates that guns are exotic.
More importantly it clearly states:
Firearm Proficiency: The Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms)
feat allows you to use all of the firearms presented here without
penalty. A non-proficient character takes the standard –4 penalty
on attack rolls with firearms and increases all misfire values by 4.
Even though Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) grants you
proficiency with all firearms, when you take feats that modify a
single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload),
you must still pick one type of firearm (such as musket or pistol)
for those feats to affect.
As for Amateur Gunslinger, the fact that it does not have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) as a prerequisite only means that you can take the feat without being proficient with firearms and take the appropriate penalties when using them.
This means that the gunslinger is proficient with the two exotic weapons listed in the playtest plus any additional firearms that are added beyond those two.
I am fully aware that the alternate class is currently an alpha, but it is seriously underpowered compared to the class it is being switched out for right now so I expect they will be powering it up soon to be on par.
I do fully agree with your assessment that the gunslinger is underpowered and hopefully it will be much improved for the next round of playtest Stephen said they were working on.
| Jaçinto |
Yes Freesword, you are right. It was 2:49 am and I was having trouble keeping my eyes open. My bad. Come on though, this is cleary a cowboy type class since gunslingers come from Alkenstar. A lasso just makes sense for them to be non-exotic. That is why I said they should get a specialized weapon prof selection, like the druid and monk have. Also, more feats far outweighs just the deeds every few levels. Deeds are nice, but you have to pick and choose as you level up. Fighters get feats every single level that they can use to take pretty much whatever the heck they want. Much less restricted. Needs a balance.
| Freesword |
I'm neutral on the lasso. Giving it to them would not be game breaking but I can see adding to the western feel being off-putting to some.
I do see the gunslinger as a feat hungry class. The fact that some of the best Deed are only available from taking feats exasperates the problem. The big problem with swapping Bonus Feats for Deeds however is that the Deed are powered by scarce Grit points and aren't stacking up well compared to "always on" feats. More Deeds need to be "so long as you have 1 Grit remaining" and grit pool needs to add 1/2 gunslinger level. Additionally, the class is spending too many resources compensating for prohibitive firearms rules vs shining in it's own right.
The Gunslinger is supposed to be highly specialized, so being somewhat restricted in options isn't necessarily a bad thing. Being underpowered however is.
| Jaçinto |
I agree with everything here save the western feel putting some people off. Sure, some people may not like it but is it any worse than the eastern feel of the Ninja or Samurai or Monk? And yeah I say monk because these are clearly the shaolin kind, not the christian kind. And if you look at Alkenstar, which is where gunslingers and guns come from, they ARE cowboy style. Desert like area with no magic. It's a western style area. I don't see the problem with one western style class when so many classes and monsters take things from other real world cultures.