Combat Maneuver tweak: Provoke AoO on if CMB roll fails?


Homebrew and House Rules

Sovereign Court

One of the things that I don't find satisfying with the RAW is that AoO really do shut down a lot of interesting things to do on the battlefield. People simply aren't willing to risk getting hit, or particularly critted, by an AoO.

One result of this is that unless you are specialized in one specific form of CM, it is very rare to see them being used in a game in my experience. I find that disappointing, as the CMs tend to add a lot of flavor to combat, and I want the current bare hint of flavor to be magnified more.

So one approach would be to adjust the CM rules slightly so that an AoO only provokes if the CMB roll fails. That way someone who is fairly strong and burly has a degree of confidence that they might be able to pull it off, but if they don't then they open themselves up to getting whacked. So there is still retained a sense of trade-off within the system.

The counter to this is that without the initial AoO, you end up also missing out on the modifier to the CMB roll that can occur with a successful AoO, then making it easier to perform CMs.

I guess how I'd respond to that is that I want CMs to be used more and to succeed more, without a lot of specialization. Having more dynamic elements happening is the game is something I'd like to see happen, and that means that viable options (or at least perceived viable options) are available to everyone, rather than endless specialization.

Ideally, combat for me would involve more teamwork, and not the kind of meta-game teamwork of people constantly alerting others that they might provoke AoO from this or that action, but instead pro-active teamwork within the game, where one PC sets up for another player to deliver to decisive blow.

Anyway, in terms of balance... in terms of the math behind it all, how does this tweak affect the game? What pitfalls am I not seeing?


Mok wrote:

One of the things that I don't find satisfying with the RAW is that AoO really do shut down a lot of interesting things to do on the battlefield. People simply aren't willing to risk getting hit, or particularly critted, by an AoO.

One result of this is that unless you are specialized in one specific form of CM, it is very rare to see them being used in a game in my experience. I find that disappointing, as the CMs tend to add a lot of flavor to combat, and I want the current bare hint of flavor to be magnified more.

So one approach would be to adjust the CM rules slightly so that an AoO only provokes if the CMB roll fails. That way someone who is fairly strong and burly has a degree of confidence that they might be able to pull it off, but if they don't then they open themselves up to getting whacked. So there is still retained a sense of trade-off within the system.

The counter to this is that without the initial AoO, you end up also missing out on the modifier to the CMB roll that can occur with a successful AoO, then making it easier to perform CMs.

I guess how I'd respond to that is that I want CMs to be used more and to succeed more, without a lot of specialization. Having more dynamic elements happening is the game is something I'd like to see happen, and that means that viable options (or at least perceived viable options) are available to everyone, rather than endless specialization.

Ideally, combat for me would involve more teamwork, and not the kind of meta-game teamwork of people constantly alerting others that they might provoke AoO from this or that action, but instead pro-active teamwork within the game, where one PC sets up for another player to deliver to decisive blow.

Anyway, in terms of balance... in terms of the math behind it all, how does this tweak affect the game? What pitfalls am I not seeing?

It would ruin my immersion to see someone try to grab a weapon from a trained martial artist and not get swung at unless they were trained to do so. The same goes with the other CMB checks that are not grappling. An AoO happens before the move, not after so that my cause issues that are mechanical. Damage is normally better than the combat maneuvers anyway unless I have a reason to not do damage. It is not the AoO that is preventing it, but the efficiency of it.


Mok wrote:
One result of this is that unless you are specialized in one specific form of CM, it is very rare to see them being used in a game in my experience. I find that disappointing, as the CMs tend to add a lot of flavor to combat, and I want the current bare hint of flavor to be magnified more.

+1

I agree. I'd love to see more combat maneuvers used, and the rule that says you get smacked just for trying is one of the things standing in the way. I like you're solution.

One way I've considered solving the problem is giving out more combat maneuver related feats. Basically, if you take Improved [combat maneuver] as a feat, you would get Greater [combat maneuver] as a free feat when you qualify, and [combat maneuver] Strike when you qualify for that.


Sound nice.
@wraithstrike: The trained martial artist has a high CMD, so he probably gets his swing


Ksorkrax wrote:

Sound nice.

@wraithstrike: The trained martial artist has a high CMD, so he probably gets his swing

`

Anyone in Pathfinder that has a BAB of +4 is probably a better martial artist than most of us have ever seen in real life.

It ruins my immersion when I'm playing a character that can thread a sword point through a needle with his +5 BAB but can't stab someone in the hand to disarm them.

I think the AoO for a lot of the combat maneuvers are silly. Sundering a weapon should be easier in every way that making a normal attack roll sense the thing you are hitting is stuck out in front and doesn't feel pain.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Combat Maneuver tweak: Provoke AoO on if CMB roll fails? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules