Three cheers for the labor movement


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Aberzombie wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Recently, the USPS has been loaned Federal money while it works to pay off employee retirement packages, rising fuel costs, and other costs related to the drop in mail volume in the last decade.

U.S. Postal Service Set to Default on Its Federal Debts

Gee, I wonder where the money for those "loans" came from. Taxpayer money?

Naaah...

Oh, wait....

Nevermind, I'll just go back to pounding my head on this wall. {sigh}

Liberty's Edge

Aberzombie wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
Recently, the USPS has been loaned Federal money while it works to pay off employee retirement packages, rising fuel costs, and other costs related to the drop in mail volume in the last decade.

U.S. Postal Service Set to Default on Its Federal Debts

Gee, I wonder where the money for those "loans" came from. Taxpayer money?

Naaah...

Oh, wait....

Same place the TARP money came from.

Your solution is to eliminate the postal service?


Aberzombie wrote:
I read somewhere once that, at their height, unions only made up about 35% of the total workforce, and have steadily declined ever since.

That sounds about right, though I couldn't vouch for the exact number. I believe that today it's around 15% and if you exclude government workers of all stripes it further plummets down to around 7%.

Scarab Sages

ciretose wrote:
Your solution is to eliminate the postal service?

Damn skippy! Although part of that may be my ongoing feud with that motherless son of a dung beetle postman who always leaves my mail box open when it rains. DAMN HIM!!!!

shakes fist


Andrew R wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
I worked for UPS, got screwed by the union there too.
What can I say? Some locals suck and some employees who feel that they got screwed are indefensible. Without further details, which you may or may not wish to share, it's impossible to determine what's what. For what it's worth, my condolences on getting screwed.
i was one of the very few non-union workers, a non manager administrative, that the union removed my job piece by piece by constant b##%#ing about how almost every move i made should have been done by a union member until finally the manager had no choice but to get rid of me to silence the constant whining and threats from the union jasckasses. In the end a handfull of people divided my work between them and each gained a few minutes a day and i lost a job I truely enjoyed. I wish i could bring misery to the teamsters for that and every other thing i saw while working there.

At least your not bitter.

So why didn't you join the union and save your job?

The Exchange

ciretose wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
I worked for UPS, got screwed by the union there too.
What can I say? Some locals suck and some employees who feel that they got screwed are indefensible. Without further details, which you may or may not wish to share, it's impossible to determine what's what. For what it's worth, my condolences on getting screwed.
i was one of the very few non-union workers, a non manager administrative, that the union removed my job piece by piece by constant b~#%%ing about how almost every move i made should have been done by a union member until finally the manager had no choice but to get rid of me to silence the constant whining and threats from the union jasckasses. In the end a handfull of people divided my work between them and each gained a few minutes a day and i lost a job I truely enjoyed. I wish i could bring misery to the teamsters for that and every other thing i saw while working there.

So management fired you and gave your job to three other people already working for the company, because your job was superfluous.

And for this, you blame unions?

Sounds to me like you were laid off by management because you weren't needed.

Except the fact that they fought tooth and nail to stop the same from happening to several of the thug union payers from getting the same, while screwing me over to get more hours for their dead weight.

The Exchange

Xabulba wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
I worked for UPS, got screwed by the union there too.
What can I say? Some locals suck and some employees who feel that they got screwed are indefensible. Without further details, which you may or may not wish to share, it's impossible to determine what's what. For what it's worth, my condolences on getting screwed.
i was one of the very few non-union workers, a non manager administrative, that the union removed my job piece by piece by constant b##%#ing about how almost every move i made should have been done by a union member until finally the manager had no choice but to get rid of me to silence the constant whining and threats from the union jasckasses. In the end a handfull of people divided my work between them and each gained a few minutes a day and i lost a job I truely enjoyed. I wish i could bring misery to the teamsters for that and every other thing i saw while working there.

At least your not bitter.

So why didn't you join the union and save your job?

Why should i have to PAY those *******s for the right to keep the job they were trying to destroy???

They are only interested in the money they make by threat and force not the BS line they give about helping worker.
Damn right im bitter, i hate anything so greedy and destructive.


I "know" that the Free Market, if allowed to operate, will produce better results than the Unions have. The aim of any business is to make money. That's flat out the perspective of WotC and Paizo Publishing.

While not having unions (that I'm aware of), both WotC's actions and Paizo's actions can be seen in how they treat their customers; and their employees.

The Company has to make money. But they also have to take care of their employees to see that they are happy. Thirdly, they need to make sure that their customers are also happy.

WotC has lay offs during the start of winter and practically ignores the 3PP market. This is because the customers don't want 3PP stuff, so WotC should go insular and just take their loyal following with them.

Paizo, on the other hand. I can't remember about them hearing about one lay-off during the beginning of Winter. The customers are happy since Paizo seems to support 3PPs.

--------------------
As for the Public Employee Labor Unions.

I don't see how they benefit the Tax-Payer with their continued existence. Once again, the FREE MARKET should be at work here in the private sector, and in the public sector, the Employees who slack should really find something they can do and do well without working in the Public Sector.

Government should be there to protect our personal property from harm. They should provide for the common defense from Enemies both foreign and domestic, and keep their little hands out of our personal lives. The government should not tax the public with an income tax, but they should make all of their money on tariffs and service fees (since Copyright and patents are a PRIVILEGE, the government should impose a service fee for copyright and extensions beyond 5 years and patent extensions beyond 10 years, for example).

Public Labor Unions are leaches on the Tax Payer and should provide honest reasons why they should remain in existence.

Liberty's Edge

Elton wrote:

I "know" that the Free Market, if allowed to operate, will produce better results than the Unions have. The aim of any business is to make money. That's flat out the perspective of WotC and Paizo Publishing.

While not having unions (that I'm aware of), both WotC's actions and Paizo's actions can be seen in how they treat their customers; and their employees.

The Company has to make money. But they also have to take care of their employees to see that they are happy. Thirdly, they need to make sure that their customers are also happy.

WotC has lay offs during the start of winter and practically ignores the 3PP market. This is because the customers don't want 3PP stuff, so WotC should go insular and just take their loyal following with them.

Paizo, on the other hand. I can't remember about them hearing about one lay-off during the beginning of Winter. The customers are happy since Paizo seems to support 3PPs.

--------------------
As for the Public Employee Labor Unions.

I don't see how they benefit the Tax-Payer with their continued existence. Once again, the FREE MARKET should be at work here in the private sector, and in the public sector, the Employees who slack should really find something they can do and do well without working in the Public Sector.

Government should be there to protect our personal property from harm. They should provide for the common defense from Enemies both foreign and domestic, and keep their little hands out of our personal lives. The government should not tax the public with an income tax, but they should make all of their money on tariffs and service fees (since Copyright and patents are a PRIVILEGE, the government should impose a service fee for copyright and extensions beyond 5 years and patent extensions beyond 10 years, for example).

Public Labor Unions are leaches on the Tax Payer and should provide honest reasons why they should remain in existence.

The free market is awesome. Ask Somalia! Or the middle ages! Or Haiti relative to Japan when earthquakes come!

Self regulation is the way to go!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
There is plenty of ethical issues with employers but you have the choice not to work for them.
In this job market? I disagree -- a lot of people either need to stick with whatever job they get (and you hate them for griping about it), or else they have no job at all (and you hate them for being "freeloaders"). The third choice, I suppose, is for them to accept serfdom and like it?

I'll second that. A lot of my clients -- immigrants, Temporary Foreign Workers, people with disabilities, many women -- work in conditions that are not of their choosing. It's easy to say "quit and get a better job." Not only are jobs harder to come by in this economy, but members of marginalized populations have an even more difficult time getting another job (much less a good job) than others might, whether due to language or systemic barriers, fewer educational opportunities, etc.


Berinor wrote:


Thanks for the support! It helps to know there are people all over who see what it's all about (even if you do add a funny u into the labor movement). We're still trying to figure out what to do next now that the law has passed. For now it's keep up the protests and do what we can to recall the senators who voted for this disaster.

"Funny u" in labour? Heh... yeah, we kept a few additional letters in some of our words even after gaining independence from the Brits. Was the American removal of the "u" from words like labour and colour a form of rebellion against the colonialists? :-)


Elton wrote:

I "know" that the Free Market, if allowed to operate, will produce better results than the Unions have. The aim of any business is to make money. That's flat out the perspective of WotC and Paizo Publishing.

While not having unions (that I'm aware of), both WotC's actions and Paizo's actions can be seen in how they treat their customers; and their employees.

The Company has to make money. But they also have to take care of their employees to see that they are happy. Thirdly, they need to make sure that their customers are also happy.

WotC has lay offs during the start of winter and practically ignores the 3PP market. This is because the customers don't want 3PP stuff, so WotC should go insular and just take their loyal following with them.

Paizo, on the other hand. I can't remember about them hearing about one lay-off during the beginning of Winter. The customers are happy since Paizo seems to support 3PPs.

--------------------
As for the Public Employee Labor Unions.

I don't see how they benefit the Tax-Payer with their continued existence. Once again, the FREE MARKET should be at work here in the private sector, and in the public sector, the Employees who slack should really find something they can do and do well without working in the Public Sector.

Government should be there to protect our personal property from harm. They should provide for the common defense from Enemies both foreign and domestic, and keep their little hands out of our personal lives. The government should not tax the public with an income tax, but they should make all of their money on tariffs and service fees (since Copyright and patents are a PRIVILEGE, the government should impose a service fee for copyright and extensions beyond 5 years and patent extensions beyond 10 years, for example).

Public Labor Unions are leaches on the Tax Payer and should provide honest reasons why they should remain in existence.

Not only is the "free market" a myth, but the benefits of the so-called free market are overstated, in my opinion. Excessive deregulation of markets is what caused the global financial mess that we're in now.

I have had the privilege of living in Denmark for one year -- a "socialist" country with very high union density (70% of the workforce, if I'm not mistaken), a wide range of publicly-funded social programs, and yes, high taxes. Year after year, the Scandinavian countries are noted as having the best standards of living, lowest poverty/child poverty rates, low crime rates and homelessness, etc., with economies that were doing well prior to the recession. Yeah... socialist principles really are evil...


TwiceBorn wrote:


Not only is the "free market" a myth, but the benefits of the...

I have had the privilege of living in Denmark for one year -- a "socialist" country with very high union density (70% of the workforce, if I'm not mistaken), a wide range of publicly-funded social programs, and yes, high taxes. Year after year, the Scandinavian countries are noted as having the best standards of living, lowest poverty/child poverty rates, low crime rates and homelessness, etc., with economies that were doing well prior to the recession. Yeah... socialist principles really are evil...

If you think Socialism is great now, wait until you are living under the Law of Consecration! :)

Socialism pales in comparison to what the Law of Consecration will bring.


Elton wrote:
TwiceBorn wrote:


Not only is the "free market" a myth, but the benefits of the...

I have had the privilege of living in Denmark for one year -- a "socialist" country with very high union density (70% of the workforce, if I'm not mistaken), a wide range of publicly-funded social programs, and yes, high taxes. Year after year, the Scandinavian countries are noted as having the best standards of living, lowest poverty/child poverty rates, low crime rates and homelessness, etc., with economies that were doing well prior to the recession. Yeah... socialist principles really are evil...

If you think Socialism is great now, wait until you are living under the Law of Consecration! :)

Socialism pales in comparison to what the Law of Consecration will bring.

Law of Consecration link

How did you make the jump from democratic socialism to religious communism? Are the Danes suddenly going to wake up one day and decide to voluntarily give all there possessions to there local Lutheran church for redistribution.
Socialism and communism are antithetical to each other, learn the differences.

Scarab Sages

Xabulba wrote:
How did you make the jump from democratic socialism to religious communism? Socialism and communism are antithetical to each other, learn the differences.

Faux News?

A lot of people I know who watch that channel can't tell the difference. Hell, the people ON that channel can't tell you the difference.


Sanakht Inaros wrote:
Xabulba wrote:
How did you make the jump from democratic socialism to religious communism? Socialism and communism are antithetical to each other, learn the differences.

Faux News?

A lot of people I know who watch that channel can't tell the difference. Hell, the people ON that channel can't tell you the difference.

The Marxist-Leninist movement, of which I consider myself part of the Trotskyist subset, still uses the terms interchangeably. Granted, we wouldn't refer to Denmark as "socialist", but then again, neither did Twice Born.

Scarab Sages

Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

The Marxist-Leninist movement, of which I consider myself part of the Trotskyist subset, still uses the terms interchangeably. Granted, we wouldn't refer to Denmark as "socialist", but then again, neither did Twice Born.

Elton did though. And that the Law of Consecration is a part of Mormonism kinda says something about a certain Faux news host who rails against it.


To be clear, I intentionally bracketed "socialism" when referring to Denmark and the Scandinavian countries. The correct term for the dominant (albeit waning) political philosophy in those states is social democratic. My apologies if I inadvertently confused people. I don't consider socialism and communism to be the same thing, although they may share certain characteristics. Social democracies include a blend of capitalism, with the implementation of social programs (public education, universal health care, and the like) and the partial redistribution of wealth through the permanent establishment of a welfare state based on progressive taxation (the redistribution of wealth aspect being often labelled as "socialist" by Conservatives where I live).


ciretose wrote:
NPC Dave wrote:


Do you think child labor is bad?

No I don't.

You being pro-Miley Cyrus

Let me quote the link in full, since you clearly misunderstood what I was saying by providing the link. The date this was written was April 2008.

-----
People magazine reports that the Miley Cyrus franchise will be worth a projected $1 billion by the end of the year. She tops the magazine's list of the richest teen celebrities.

Not that Miley is seeing much of the money. Her mom says most is invested and Miley can't touch it until she's 18.

The Jonas Brothers are also on the list, making $12 million a year. Fourteen-year-old Dakota Fanning makes $4 million a movie.

Twelve-year-old Abigail Breslin makes $2 million a film, but has to live on an allowance of $11 a week.

Thirteen-year-old Mark Indelicato makes nearly a half million dollars for a season of "Ugly Betty," but he has an allowance of $50 a week.
-----

All of these children were/are making money through child labor. According to the original poster, this is "bad".

Why?

For the record, I am completely indifferent to Miley Cyrus...I am neither "pro" nor "con".

However, I don't consider it "bad" that she made so much money as a child for her labor. Nor do I consider it "bad" that Mark Indelicato makes peanuts in comparison for his child labor.

Quote:


isn't the same as remembering this kind of stuff happened in our country before child labor laws came into effect

I see a black and white photograph of a bunch of young boys with one man in what looks like a factory or warehouse, looks like Depression era based on their clothes.

What is "bad" about this photo?

Quote:


Not that the Disney Machine hasn't produced winners like Lindsey Lohan...

This is why child labor is "bad"? Because child labor causes illegal drug use and shoplifting?

I had a paper route when I was a kid...I didn't make as much as Mark Indelicato but I did get paid for my labor. Was that bad?

One of my friends worked as a kid at his Dad's business, was that labor bad?

Neither of us shoplifted.

Quote:


And if you believe that weekends and 40 hour work weeks can out of the goodness of employers hearts,

Strawman argument, I never said anything about the goodness of employers hearts. Here is what I said.

"I am glad I live at a time where work productivity and market efficiency allowed (many)people to have time for two days off a week"

Read it carefully, do you see anything about "hearts" or "goodness" in there?

Neither did I.

Quote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time

"Before collective bargaining and worker protection laws, there was a financial incentive for a company to maximize the return on expensive machinery by having long hours. Records indicate that work schedules as arduous as twelve to sixteen hours per day, six to seven days per week were practiced in some industrial sites."

Indeed they were, but then something remarkable happened as the Industrial Revolution continued...technology and specialization made workers more efficient and more productive. That is market forces...not the labor movement.

In 1916 the Endicott-Johnson instituted a 40 hour work week, no law, no union, no labor movement required. The owner decided it because he got the output he needed at 40 hours...people are less efficient and less productive when they are exhausted. He maximized his return by having his people work less hours. No goodness of heart required, just a desire to make more profit by attracting more skilled workers with better job benefits(pay and hours).

Henry Ford had similar policies or paid extra wages(now called overtime) for work above 40-48 hours a week. Again, no union, no law, no labor movement.

I am well aware the labor movement struts around taking credit for all sorts of things it had nothing to do with...the government does as well. But that has nothing to do with the historical reality.

The Exchange

I would not say child labor is wrong but does need regulation to avoid abuse. Letting a 12 year old work a few hours a day to earn money for luxuries instead of mom the bank paying might teach them something. Not to mention that some might actually save for their first car or college.....


Just wondering...How do you exactly intent to prevent coercion children by their parents? I mean, it's not like either of our countries has managed child welfare in general. I mean, Fourth worst(US) and worst(UK) ranking(respectively) out of the top twenty five economies, in Unicefs 2007 figures for child welfare.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to get the basic stuff right before we start adding additional layers to child protection.


Oh, and respect and solidarity to those on #ucustrike

When inflation is running at 4%, when you get paid less than your counter parts in SE (considerably less than private sector SE), and job uncertainty is rising, a real terms pay cut of almost 3% for FE teachers is messed up. You guys provide the fuel for our economy, and for that, I thank you.


NPC Dave--I don't know all of the details of the two company histories that you mention, but I think you're overlooking context.

By 1916, the eight-hour day had been a central demand of the labor movement for over thirty years, with varying levels and degrees of success.

If a company wants to attract the best employees, it's going to have to offer competitive compensation and conditions.

That bar was set by the labor movement.

So, even if there was no union- or government-created necessity to institute a shortened workday, if Endicott (which I believe was a NY-based company) was going to attract workers in the highly unionized garment industry, they were going to have to offer some incentives to get people to come work for them.

I'm not saying there weren't other contributing factors, but people often overlook the fact that during its height, the labor movement set standards far beyond just their own ranks.

As I am a UPS employee, I often use examples from "my" company's experience.

Jim Casey, the founder of UPS, went to the Teamsters and asked them to organize his shop, not the other way around. Why? Well, UPS started as a Seattle-based company and, in 1919, there was a general strike in the city. Casey decided that if he didn't want his workers falling in with a bunch of commies and anarchists, he'd better get them organized into the Teamsters, which was (and probably still is) a very conservative union.

Now, I realize that the issues are not at all the same, but what I'm trying to illustrate is that sometimes companies had to take into consideration what the unions were doing even if they were not a union company.

Grand Lodge

Kryzbyn wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
The gulf disaster stems partially from enviromental idiots driving offshore drilling into waters so deep that it is difficult to work on them.

Yes! Blame the environmentalists for BP's Gulf Oil Disaster! That's classic!

Do you have any CDs of your stand-up routine available for sale? Just wondering.

Yeah it wasn't the evironmentalists.

It was the lobbyists on their behalf.

it was the lobbyist on THE OIL COMPANIES behalf. They got thier buddies in the Bush White House and the Republican party to sign off on bypassing the stringent regulations regarding deepwater drilling in the gulf.

Next you'll be blaming the chickens for the fox!

Grand Lodge

Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

NPC Dave--I don't know all of the details of the two company histories that you mention, but I think you're overlooking context.

By 1916, the eight-hour day had been a central demand of the labor movement for over thirty years, with varying levels and degrees of success.

If a company wants to attract the best employees, it's going to have to offer competitive compensation and conditions.

On the other hand with a labor surplus, and no regulation barring otherwise, you can get away with treating your people like dirt as for any one that leaves there are 10 people looking to take his job.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:

NPC Dave--I don't know all of the details of the two company histories that you mention, but I think you're overlooking context.

By 1916, the eight-hour day had been a central demand of the labor movement for over thirty years, with varying levels and degrees of success.

If a company wants to attract the best employees, it's going to have to offer competitive compensation and conditions.

On the other hand with a labor surplus, and no regulation barring otherwise, you can get away with treating your people like dirt as for any one that leaves there are 10 people looking to take his job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire

Since it is the 100th anniversary.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
The gulf disaster stems partially from enviromental idiots driving offshore drilling into waters so deep that it is difficult to work on them.

Yes! Blame the environmentalists for BP's Gulf Oil Disaster! That's classic!

Do you have any CDs of your stand-up routine available for sale? Just wondering.

Yeah it wasn't the evironmentalists.

It was the lobbyists on their behalf.

it was the lobbyist on THE OIL COMPANIES behalf. They got thier buddies in the Bush White House and the Republican party to sign off on bypassing the stringent regulations regarding deepwater drilling in the gulf.

Next you'll be blaming the chickens for the fox!

+1

The logic keeps circling around so that it is never the fault of the people who are actually paid to make decisions. They myth of accountable managements in the land of the golden parachute...

Anyone else notice that?

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