There has been a lot of talk about alignments on this board, and I have a player about to begin playing a first level one: a paladin without access to a church of his own faith or a knightly order. I wrote a code of behavior for his character to replace the one in the book. Anyone mind looking it over and making suggestions?
The Paladin’s Code
Paladins are imbued with divine power to help them defend the weak and overcome the evil in the world. This power isn’t given directly to them by a deity – their purity of heart allows them to channel magic from the plane of positive energy. Paladin’s that become powerful enough can draw the attention of a deity who will show them favor by granting minor spells.
A paladin may become a part of a knightly order which has a rigid code of conduct, however it isn’t the rigid code which grants them their powers. Still, a pure heart can only be known by the fruit it bears so the actions of a paladin are very important. The following is a list of behaviors which can be expected of all paladins:
- always seek to do go within their means
- donate at least 10% of their wealth to charity
- always defend the weak and powerless, so long as hope remains
- never cause needless suffering
- always take the high road
The source of a paladin’s power is his pure heart. The three most important virtues to a paladin are not courage, honor and piety, but faith, hope and love. Paladins must have faith in both themselves and in the fellow man, hope that they can make a difference, and love even for their enemies. This extends to a hope that seemingly irredeemable people can have a change of heart. If this sounds farfetched, consider that they receive their powers due to a connection to the plane of positive energy – their goodness is of a super natural origin.
Even in pursuit of the greater good, a paladin will never perform one of the following acts:
- torture for pleasure or to obtain information (though he may make threats or strong arm)
- leave behind someone who can be saved
- kill or maim a helpless adversary
- kill or maim an adversary that has surrendered
- steal anything for personal gain or comfort
Notice that there are still a number of things a paladin can do without risking his purity or special powers:
- lie (for reasons other than personal gain)
- run away from a fair fight
- keep a fair share of the spoils of war, so long as recovered goods don’t have an honest home
- break the law when necessary
Codes of Chivalry
While paladins have a great deal of leeway in terms of operating procedure, knights do not. Joining a knightly order usually involves taking a vow to uphold the rules of the order. Different orders may have variations; however there are a few common, underlying themes:
- never disobey the order of a superior unless that order contradicts the laws of god
- never flee from a fair fight, including single combat with any opponent, unless ordered by a superior
- donate a sizable portion of wealth to the order, or spend it on things useful to the order
- never lie
- never steal
- never break the law unless given authority over the law by a superior
Those that manage to uphold a code of chivalry gain a +2 bonus on willpower saving throws. This bonus is lost if the character ever breaks his vows. It can be regained through atonement guided by a priest, usually involving a quest to purify oneself.
Quote: donate at least 10% of their wealth to charity This is a mechanical hamstringing of the paladin, unless you make sure that they have some extra source of income to keep up with the party wealth.
erik542 wrote: Quote: donate at least 10% of their wealth to charity This is a mechanical hamstringing of the paladin, unless you make sure that they have some extra source of income to keep up with the party wealth. But very 1st edition.
I don't have magic items for sale in my games, so it doesn't matter. Characters get bonuses per level based on the wealth by level chart and magic items are story based.
The only thing they have to spend wealth on is retainers and buildings.
cranewings wrote: I don't have magic items for sale in my games, and magic items are story based. The only thing they have to spend wealth on is retainers and buildings. Also very 1st Edition. I'd play!
Shadewest wrote: cranewings wrote: I don't have magic items for sale in my games, and magic items are story based. The only thing they have to spend wealth on is retainers and buildings. Also very 1st Edition. I'd play! Haha, thanks. I love me some Gygax. As for the code, besides the 10%, what do you think?
The taking the high-road thing is going to cause problems due to short term / long term conflicts in addition to needing much clarification.
cranewings wrote: Shadewest wrote: cranewings wrote: I don't have magic items for sale in my games, and magic items are story based. The only thing they have to spend wealth on is retainers and buildings. Also very 1st Edition. I'd play! Haha, thanks. I love me some Gygax. As for the code, besides the 10%, what do you think? I think it's clear and achievable. Although, I'd be careful about making a change in an ongoing campaign. If you're starting fresh, I think it very good. It's difficult, but that's the nature of Good. It's refreshing to see a GM who actually likes paladins enough to work this sort of code out. For a player who gets what being a paladin is about, and a GM who doesn't try to morally catch-22 one every session, it can be really rewarding. I hope you get a player who will take up your challenge.
Shadewest wrote: cranewings wrote: Shadewest wrote: cranewings wrote: I don't have magic items for sale in my games, and magic items are story based. The only thing they have to spend wealth on is retainers and buildings. Also very 1st Edition. I'd play! Haha, thanks. I love me some Gygax. As for the code, besides the 10%, what do you think? I think it's clear and achievable. Although, I'd be careful about making a change in an ongoing campaign. If you're starting fresh, I think it very good. It's difficult, but that's the nature of Good. It's refreshing to see a GM who actually likes paladins enough to work this sort of code out. For a player who gets what being a paladin is about, and a GM who doesn't try to morally catch-22 one every session, it can be really rewarding. I hope you get a player who will take up your challenge. I have a group of players that are WAY WAY more likely to write up The Punisher, Wolverine, Dead Pool, and Nightwing than Superman, Green Lantern, Spiderman, and Batman. The comic book code is out and self loathing anti-heroes are in.
That said, they actually decided to play good for once, and one guy got REALLY excited about it. Later though, he started to fret about the new game we are starting, worrying about all the usual paladin baggage: can't run from a fight, can't lie, can't win, can't whatever and all the other misconceptions about paladins.
I'll admit, they are my favorite class, but I never get to play them because most game masters are god hating dark comedy writers that use the paladin as a plot mule, taking all the fun out of it.
I love it when I'm playing a paladin and I meet a king who says, "I've heard of you. Thank you for saving the people of the northwoods. I'm too old to fight this demon but you would honor our kingdom if you would carry my sword."
Instead, its all, "hey guy, you aren't even a real knight. That wizard you killed was sacrificing babies to keep a devil from coming through his blood wall so go fight that now and thanks for nothing."
erik542 wrote: The taking the high-road thing is going to cause problems due to short term / long term conflicts in addition to needing much clarification. You are right. I think the rest of what I wrote covers it anyway. I'm just deleting it from my file. Thanks.
cranewings wrote:
I have a group of players that are WAY WAY more likely to write up The Punisher, Wolverine, Dead Pool, and Nightwing than Superman, Green Lantern, Spiderman, and Batman. The comic book code is out and self loathing anti-heroes are in.
I'll admit, they are my favorite class, but I never get to play them because most game masters are god hating dark comedy writers that use the paladin as a plot mule, taking all the fun out of it.
I love it when I'm playing a paladin and I meet a king who says, "I've heard of you. Thank you for saving the people of the northwoods. I'm too old to fight this demon but you would honor our kingdom if you would carry my sword."
Instead, its all, "hey guy, you aren't even a real knight. That wizard you killed was sacrificing babies to keep a devil from coming...
Wow, I didn't think there was anyone else who thought that way. I feel exactly the same. Seriously, if you start a PbP, I want dibs on a paladin! If there's two, there might be more, so don't lose hope!
Shadewest wrote: cranewings wrote:
I have a group of players that are WAY WAY more likely to write up The Punisher, Wolverine, Dead Pool, and Nightwing than Superman, Green Lantern, Spiderman, and Batman. The comic book code is out and self loathing anti-heroes are in.
I'll admit, they are my favorite class, but I never get to play them because most game masters are god hating dark comedy writers that use the paladin as a plot mule, taking all the fun out of it.
I love it when I'm playing a paladin and I meet a king who says, "I've heard of you. Thank you for saving the people of the northwoods. I'm too old to fight this demon but you would honor our kingdom if you would carry my sword."
Instead, its all, "hey guy, you aren't even a real knight. That wizard you killed was sacrificing babies to keep a devil from coming...
Wow, I didn't think there was anyone else who thought that way. I feel exactly the same. Seriously, if you start a PbP, I want dibs on a paladin! If there's two, there might be more, so don't lose hope! Haha, thanks.
I have a player whose current character is a paladin, and he walks the line. Not only with tithing, doing right by friends and foes alike, and honoring his church and deity, but he doesn't even get wrapped up in wealth, women, or whiskey either! It's unnerving sometimes, to have them walk into a well constructed town with rustic diversions (dancing, light drinking, festivities) and the paladin doesn't partake because he avoids vices.
I tend not to mess with him, but there was that one time I had a NOT-underage [wink] female elf try to rape him in his sleep. Just cuz. (He made his perception checks, so he "survived the horror" to put it in his words.)
But he's been indispensable to the party. I'm glad he hasn't made the game stupid like I'm sure so many other paladin players do, and I think it's the players that ruin the paladin's image, not the code.
Looks good thus far, but what about executions? There are going to be times when you capture something that is Evil and needs to be put down. I would lump mercy killing in there too.
Which of a knight paladin's codes takes precedence in case of conflict?
trednis wrote: Looks good thus far, but what about executions? Seconded. Paladins need to be able to do this just for their own efficacy.
erik542 wrote: trednis wrote: Looks good thus far, but what about executions? Seconded. Paladins need to be able to do this just for their own efficacy. If the character is Chaotic Good, I wouldn't expect him to carry out executions.
If he is lawful good, he still won't of his own accord. His duty is to bring captured enemies to justice. If, and that is a big if, he has been given the authority to carry out executions in the land he is in, then he can so long as the crimes of the guilty warrant it.
Some characters are a lot of trouble to hold prisoner... like a werewolf looking for mercy or help -- but he has to try. Some enemies are so dangerous, such as a sorcerer, that there isn't any way to take them captive and they have to be killed as soon as their guard goes down. Failure to do so is basically letting them win.
The only way you could take a sorcerer hostage is if you had some way of denying them their power. If it was first edition, you could forcibly strap them in a suit of platemail. If it was Harry Potter, you could take their wand. In pathfinder, you just have to assume that the sorcerer is waiting for the dawn so he can unleash hell.
cranewings wrote: The only way you could take a sorcerer hostage is if you had some way of denying them their power. If it was first edition, you could forcibly strap them in a suit of platemail. If it was Harry Potter, you could take their wand. In pathfinder, you just have to assume that the sorcerer is waiting for the dawn so he can unleash hell. If you really want to keep him alive, bind his hands, blindfold him, and gag him. Now he can really only cast silent still spells, and he still can't see where he's casting. feel free to plug his ears or use silence on him to make it so he cant hear anything if you want to go further.
Is it alot of trouble to go to? yeah. But it works pretty well. There are a few ways out of it for him, but it'll slow most sorcerers down. (not a polymorph or teleport specialist).
It's like dealing with an eladrin ala 4e. If an eladrin gets captured, unless you have an interest in his well being, the easiest way to deal with him is to gouge his eyes out.
in regards to the op: just say "I don't allow paladins" and be done with it. The inherent conflicts within that code of behavior will cause him to fall with no control in the outcome. Also the 10% to charity by itself would make me not want to play it due to the WBL system inherent in the game, I don't care if it was like that in 1st ed, this isn't 1st ed.
9mm wrote: in regards to the op: just say "I don't allow paladins" and be done with it. The inherent conflicts within that code of behavior will cause him to fall with no control in the outcome. Also the 10% to charity by itself would make me not want to play it due to the WBL system inherent in the game, I don't care if it was like that in 1st ed, this isn't 1st ed. cranewings wrote: I don't have magic items for sale in my games, so it doesn't matter. Characters get bonuses per level based on the wealth by level chart and magic items are story based.
The only thing they have to spend wealth on is retainers and buildings.
OP is running what essentially amounts to a no-magic campaign. WBL is nigh irrelevant. They're spending it on hirelings, expendable items, castles, and lodgings and crap, not expensive gear.
From the sound of it, he's running a rather 1e style game, wherein you might get one or two magic items over the course of a campaign, split amongst the party.
As for the code, it seems to be a more lenient version of the paladin's code at first glance, but I'm not sitting down and comparing them side by side at the moment.
@OP: I strongly suggest you work the numerical bonuses they should be getting from magic gear into their base stats, if you're not giving them the gear, or all the fights are going to be very difficult. Take the time to figure out what gear they "SHOULD" have at a given level. work in the natural armor+deflection+dodge bonuses theyd be getting from items, their bonuses to hit and damage if theyd be getting a belt of giant str, or give them the benefits for dex, int etc as appropriate by level, and make sure the fighter gets the benefits of a +1/+2/+3 sword as he progresses. that sort of thing. It'll take a bit of effort to figure out what bonuses to give them by level, and it'll vary a bit by class. Ask around in this board or the general discussion board to figure out what sorts of bonus enhancements you should have at given levels.
I can be that anal.
I'd give the Paladin player the Boy Scout Law, Scout Motto, and Scout Slogan. "This is the code of a Paladin, the Boy Scout Law, Scout Motto, and Scout Slogan. Live up to them."
And then show them this picture:
http://realheroposters.com/magento/index.php/catalog/product/gallery/id/4/i mage/31/
Then I'd say, "This picture is of a man who every Paladin should aspire to be."
cranewings wrote:
The only way you could take a sorcerer hostage is if you had some way of denying them their power. If it was first edition, you could forcibly strap them in a suit of platemail. If it was Harry Potter, you could take their wand. In pathfinder, you just have to assume that the sorcerer is waiting for the dawn so he can unleash hell.
Sorcerers need 8 hours of rest just like a Wizard does. Just kick him awake every few hours and mess with his sleep and keep him from napping the next day, and he'll never cast again. Plus, As long as you let him sleep in at least 2 hour chunks it won't interfere with his REM sleep so you can keep this up indefinitely.
Since you asked, here is my feedback.
In general it feels very first edition, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Behaviors - I like the tone of your list. He/she should definitely be the moral compass of the group. I do caution that you do not want to encourage play that makes the paladin become unplayable because the standards bar is set way to high. The game should be fun for all, and I would not hold too rigidly to very high ideals.
Next you have a list of actions that a Paladin would never do. I will provide commentary, but we will probably have to agree to disagree on some of them:
1. torture for pleasure or to obtain information (though he may make threats or strong arm)
I agree with the principle here, but I could see a number of exceptions. A paladin definitely should be allowed to intimidate foes, and that may mean a bit more that just growling at them.
2. leave behind someone who can be saved
Again, I agree, but the word "can" could be open to debate. If the probability is extremely low, I would not hold the paladin to this rule.
3. kill or maim a helpless adversary/kill or maim an adversary that has surrendered
We are not aligned on this point. If the opponent was an honorable foe, I do not have an issue with it. The problem is that most foes will not be honorable (demons, undead, constructs, etc..). I would expect a LG paladin to kill a demon regardless of what it does. I could easly see a paladin crippling a construct to make sure that it does not pose a threat going forward. I could offer additional examples, but I think you see my point. Some creatures are just "monsters" in every sense of the word, and should be eliminated. I feel very strongly on this.
4. steal anything for personal gain or comfort
I agree with the principle and I suspect that is what you mean. I could clearly see examples of where the party is suppose to steal stuff.
Kightly orders and Codes of Chivalry
In general I like the idea of knightly orders with special rules and benefits. I will caution that knights with extreme special rules quickly become unplayable, as it does not fit well for a player character to use. Just because a knightly order makes for a colorful NPC experience does not mean that it translates to player characters.
To tie all together, I think part of the reason that paladins have a bad rep is because folks took the 1st ed PHB and took it to an extreme, and as a result one had either a class that was not playable or too much conflict at the table. Neither result is a good one, which is why I usually allow the paladins at my table a bit of leeway to make sure that the playing experience is a good one for everyone. This trumps all other rules for me.
Quantum Steve wrote: cranewings wrote:
The only way you could take a sorcerer hostage is if you had some way of denying them their power. If it was first edition, you could forcibly strap them in a suit of platemail. If it was Harry Potter, you could take their wand. In pathfinder, you just have to assume that the sorcerer is waiting for the dawn so he can unleash hell.
Sorcerers need 8 hours of rest just like a Wizard does. Just kick him awake every few hours and mess with his sleep and keep him from napping the next day, and he'll never cast again. Plus, As long as you let him sleep in at least 2 hour chunks it won't interfere with his REM sleep so you can keep this up indefinitely. There was a conversation about this on the boards a while ago. I haven't looked it up myself, but I think they took that out. I wouldn't be surprised sense Pathfinder lets people fire bows they shouldn't be strong enough to use.
Darkholme wrote:
@OP: I strongly suggest you work the numerical bonuses they should be getting from magic gear into their base stats, if you're not giving them the gear, or all the fights are going to be very difficult. Take the time to figure out what gear they "SHOULD" have at a given level. work in the natural armor+deflection+dodge bonuses theyd be getting from items, their bonuses to hit and damage if theyd be getting a belt of giant str, or give them the benefits for dex, int etc as appropriate by level, and make sure the fighter gets the benefits of a +1/+2/+3 sword as he progresses. that sort of thing. It'll take a bit of effort to figure out what bonuses to give them by level, and it'll vary a bit by class. Ask around in this board or the general discussion board to figure out what sorts of bonus enhancements you should have at given levels.
We actually worked this out for my last game:
Level
1 Nothing
2 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
3 Strike and Damage +1
4 Skill +5, AC+1
5 Attribute +2
6 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
7 Strike and Damage +1
8 Low Skill +5, AC +1
9 Low Attribute +2
10 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
11 Strike and Damage +1
12 Skill +5, AC +1
13 Attribute +2
14 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
15 Strike and Damage +1
16 Low Skill +5 AC +1
17 Low Attribute +2
18 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
19 Strike and Damage +1
20 Attribute +2
Totals
Strike & Damage +5 50000
Armor +5 25000
Shield +5 25000
Skill +10 12000
Low Skill +10 12000
Attribute +6 36000
Low Attribute +4 16000
Resistance +5 25000
The bonuses are called skill bonuses, and they stack with everything: deflection, enhancement, circumstance... whatever.
I let players get items in spurts usually. I think my whole party of 5th level characters in the last Five Rings game had nothing at all, then a few games later they ended up with most of Akodo Kage's treasure and the family artifacts of the Mirumoto /shrug
Even if players get a lot of magic items (especially those that don't add strike, damage, or AC) it doesn't change the game much because even NPCs get the above bonuses (creating more of a rift between low and high level characters, but less of a rift between the haves and have nots).
Mr. Baron, thanks for the input!
cranewings wrote: We actually worked this out for my last game:
Level
1 Nothing
2 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
3 Strike and Damage +1
4 Skill +5, AC+1
5 Attribute +2
6 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
7 Strike and Damage +1
8 Low Skill +5, AC +1
9 Low Attribute +2
10 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
11 Strike and Damage +1
12 Skill +5, AC +1
13 Attribute +2
14 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
15 Strike and Damage +1
16 Low Skill +5 AC +1
17 Low Attribute +2
18 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
19 Strike and Damage +1
20 Attribute +2
Totals
Strike & Damage +5 50000
Armor +5 25000
Shield +5 25000
Skill +10 12000
Low Skill +10 12000
Attribute +6 36000
Low Attribute +4 16000
Resistance +5 25000
The bonuses are called skill bonuses, and they stack with everything: deflection, enhancement, circumstance... whatever.
From the looks of this, I like it; though I have a few questions:
What do you mean by low skill?
What do you mean by low attribute? Just their nonprimary attribute?
Where do you get those prices?
What do you do for casters? Wizards for example tend to get a very different sort of magic item than the ones that would grant the above bonuses.
Low Skill and Low Attribute just mean you can put those points into any attribute or skill besides your best one.
I got the values basically by figuring out what a character at 20th level could have, mostly in big six magic items, and averaged it over the 20 levels. I comes out a little shy by the end, but it is a little heavy at certain levels, mostly just because I wanted to make the gains even.
For the skill bonuses, I based them off boots of stealth or cloak of elvenkind or whatever, and make a logical guess what a higher bonus would be based from it.
A lot of people don't like the fact that the list favors melee characters over wizards, but I don't shed to many tears over wizards taking a hit. Other people dislike the idea that all characters gain an equal bonus to AC. Personally, I don't like basing it on BAB. If characters with a high BAB also get the high AC bonus, it just means the AC bonus wizards and rogues get is mostly inconsequential. I also think that it is fair to suggest that the ability to block, cover, and run will be fairly similar between wizards and fighters -- they are both warriors.
That chart has a couple other interesting effects. For example, it really favors two weapon fighters. They get the bonus to strike and damage to both of their weapons, saving money (though I give 1.5 x damage to a THF).
Also, fighters without shields still get the shield bonus, so shield users are marginalized a little (though being hit only on a 20 is WAY better than being hit on an 17, so using a shield can still be awesome in certain situations).
cranewings wrote: Low Skill and Low Attribute just mean you can put those points into any attribute or skill besides your best one.
I got the values basically by figuring out what a character at 20th level could have, mostly in big six magic items, and averaged it over the 20 levels. I comes out a little shy by the end, but it is a little heavy at certain levels, mostly just because I wanted to make the gains even.
For the skill bonuses, I based them off boots of stealth or cloak of elvenkind or whatever, and make a logical guess what a higher bonus would be based from it.
A lot of people don't like the fact that the list favors melee characters over wizards, but I don't shed to many tears over wizards taking a hit. Other people dislike the idea that all characters gain an equal bonus to AC. Personally, I don't like basing it on BAB. If characters with a high BAB also get the high AC bonus, it just means the AC bonus wizards and rogues get is mostly inconsequential. I also think that it is fair to suggest that the ability to block, cover, and run will be fairly similar between wizards and fighters -- they are both warriors.
WHen giving a bonus to AC by level ( I reccomend it be based on the class's armor proficiencies but whatever) may I recommend giving armor a DR value based on size, generally half of its AC bonus.
I know that is the conventional wisdom, but I don't like DR. I think it blurs the abstraction without making it any more realistic. The DR from armor is basically meaningless against mid level characters that sling damage by the dozens per hit, disproportionately harms two weapon fighters, and adds another piece of math I know my players won't want to deal with.
The Paladin’s Powers
Paladins are holy warriors that intentionally develop a connection to the plane of positive energy. They’re connection to this energy is developed through rigorous meditation and maintained by a purity of heart. It is not a gift of the divine – it is earned through hard work and contemplation in the same way a wizard earns his magic.
Paladins must be aware of their thoughts and their actions, maintaining a life of righteousness if they wish to keep a strong connection to the positive energy plane. This doesn’t require adherence to a strict code of conduct as much as it requires the paladin to adhere to his conscience – a conscience heavily ingrained for it is the source of his power. The paladin’s inner witness, his angel of thought, must be in accord with the rest of his being. Due to the influence of the positive plane, no doubt that conscience will be very demanding.
Many paladins are members of a knightly order, and will follow a code of chivalry (Song of Roland). While this isn’t necessary to maintain their powers, it is a natural part of many paladins’ characters, and necessary to maintain their social standing.
While a paladin’s abilities aren’t tied to a specific code of conduct, the following evil acts automatically corrupt a paladin and cause him to lose his powers:
Passing Up a Chance to Save Someone, within Reason
Torture (though he can use strong arm and intimidation tactics)
Stealing or Lying out of Self Interest
Killing or Maiming a Defenseless Foe
Killing or Maiming a Surrendering Enemy
Paladins are known more for what they DO rather than what they abstain from. When searching for the right course of action, a paladin must understand that what is done for the cause of good cannot be foul -- what is foul cannot serve good. A paladin being true to his conscience will perform the following deeds whenever he has the opportunity:
Donate at least 10% of his Personal Wealth to Charity
Protect the Innocent, the Meek, and the Helpless
Stand Up for the Cause of Goodness
Set an Example for others with Pious Behavior
Attempt to Redeem the Fallen
A paladin will always attempt to redeem an evil person, unless the fair law of the land demands justice. Even if a paladin’s prisoner is guilty of crimes that warrant the death penalty, a paladin will not exact that revenge unless he has been given the authority to by the law of the land. There are limits to what a paladin has to give quarter to. While a paladin will always side with mercy and compassion for common evil, the evil of wizards, sorcerers and demons is so vile and dangerous that there isn’t any way to take them into custody safely. A wizard that surrenders is most likely just waiting for the dawn when his strength recharges and he can unleash hell.
While there is a great deal of restrictions on a paladin’s behavior, there are many things he can get away with and not suffer a loss of spiritual power:
Lie when Absolutely Necessary
Break the Law when Absolutely Necessary
Run Away from a Fair Fight
Keep a Fair Share of the Spoils of Battle (if no known rightful owner exists)
Keep in mind that what you might think of as absolute necessity and what a paladin thinks of as absolute necessity may not be the same thing. Paladins do not lie, cheat or steal because they are cold, hungry, tired, afraid of deserved punishment, for fear of economic repercussions, to avoid the just prosecution of the law or to improve his own circumstances in any way because it is important for the Paladin to be an example to others: for weaker men will at best do less than whatever the paladin does. If a man of average character sees the paladin steal to save someone’s life, he will steal for something less.
The Twelve Paladin Virtues
Faith
Charity
Justice
Sagacity
Prudence
Temperance
Resolution
Truth
Liberality
Diligence
Hope
Valour
Elisabeth Moon -- Divided Allegiance
Most think being a holy warrior means gaining vast arcane powers, that they would be nearly invincible against any foe. But truth is that while Paladin are skilled at fighting, that was the least of their abilities. A quest might involve no fighting at all, or a battle against beings no steel could pierce.
Above all paladins show that courage is possible. It is easy enough to find reasons to give in to evil. War is ugly as many know. But we do not argue that war is better than peace; paladin are not that stupid. It is not peace when cruelty reigns, when stronger men steal from farmers and craftmen., when the child can be enslaved, or the old thrown out to starve, and no one lifts a hand. That is not peace: that is conquest and evil.
Paladins do not start quarrels in peaceful lands, never display their skills to earn applause. But we are the sword of good defending the helpless and teaching by our example that one person can dare greater force to break evil's grasp on the innocent. Sometimes that can be done without fighting, without killing, and that is best.
But some evil needs direct attack, and paladins must be able to do it, and lead others in battle. Wonder why paladins are so likeable? It is important, we come to a town, perhaps, where nothing has gone right for a dozen years. Perhaps there is a temple there and sometimes there is not. The people are frightened, and they have lost trust in each other, in themselves. We may lead them into danger, some will be killed or wounded. Why should they trust us?
Because we are likeable, and other people will follow us willingly. And that's why we are more likely to choose a popular adept as a candidate rather than the best fighters.
Charlemagne's Code of Chivalry (The Song of Roland), duties of the knight:
To fear God and maintain His Church
To serve the liege lord in valour and faith
To protect the weak and defenceless
To give succour to widows and orphans
To refrain from the wanton giving of offence
To live by honour and for glory
To despise pecuniary reward
To fight for the welfare of all
To obey those placed in authority
To guard the honour of fellow knights
To eschew unfairness, meanness and deceit
To keep faith
At all times to speak the truth
To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun
To respect the honour of women
Never to refuse a challenge from an equal
Never to turn the back upon a foe.
Charlemagne's Exhortation, 800 AD:
Love God Almighty with all your heart and all your powers
Love your neighbour as yourself
Give alms to the poor as ye are able
Entertain strangers
Visit the sick
Be merciful to prisoners
Do ill to no man, nor consent unto such as do, for the receiver is as bad as the thief
Forgive as ye hope to be forgiven
Redeem the captive
Help the oppressed
Defend the cause of the widow and orphan
Render righteous judgement
Do not consent to any wrong
Persevere not in wrath
Shun excess in eating and drinking
Be humble and kind
Serve your liege lord faithfully
Do not steal
Do not perjure yourself, nor let others do so
Envy, hatred and violence separate men from the Kingdom of God
Defend the Church and promote her cause.
cranewings wrote: I don't have magic items for sale in my games, so it doesn't matter. Characters get bonuses per level based on the wealth by level chart and magic items are story based.
The only thing they have to spend wealth on is retainers and buildings.
Nice! I like that a lot.
Of course, they could also spend money on fine clothing, wine, women, and song. They might start businesses, but farms, etc.
All of that could make for some interesting plot hooks, story arcs, etc.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I think that code is worlds better than the default code. My only issues with are the 10% wealth thing - which is specific to your campaign and wouldn't work as a more general paladin code - and not being able to ~ever~ kill a helpless foe.
There should be listed exceptions to that - or at least things that don't count as killing. Is destroying a helpless construct "killing"? What about a helpless skeleton? Devils/demons are banished back to their home plane - is that killing?
A paladin should always be able to act for the greater good, as long as the greater good is clear cut. A devil is ~always~ going to do more harm than good if left alive. Hence, a paladin should ~never~ be expected to spare a devil. Morally gray is lots of fun as long you let the paladin have the few things that are black and white to fall back on.
MaxAstro wrote: I think that code is worlds better than the default code. My only issues with are the 10% wealth thing - which is specific to your campaign and wouldn't work as a more general paladin code - and not being able to ~ever~ kill a helpless foe.
There should be listed exceptions to that - or at least things that don't count as killing. Is destroying a helpless construct "killing"? What about a helpless skeleton? Devils/demons are banished back to their home plane - is that killing?
A paladin should always be able to act for the greater good, as long as the greater good is clear cut. A devil is ~always~ going to do more harm than good if left alive. Hence, a paladin should ~never~ be expected to spare a devil. Morally gray is lots of fun as long you let the paladin have the few things that are black and white to fall back on.
I put this in the code above, so maybe it will help:
"A paladin will always attempt to redeem an evil person, unless the fair law of the land demands justice. Even if a paladin’s prisoner is guilty of crimes that warrant the death penalty, a paladin will not exact that revenge unless he has been given the authority to by the law of the land. There are limits to what a paladin has to give quarter to. While a paladin will always side with mercy and compassion for common evil, the evil of wizards, sorcerers and demons is so vile and dangerous that there isn’t any way to take them into custody safely. A wizard that surrenders is most likely just waiting for the dawn when his strength recharges and he can unleash hell."
But keep in mind, one of the things that makes good -- good, is that it always tries to go for gold. Superman died to Doomsday because the justice league member that could have killed him before he got too powerful let him go to save some bystanders. Lawful evil people can and do work for the greater good, but the willingness to let people die is a part of what makes them lawful evil. Sure, it is a drag, but that is a part of the deal.
If it was mentioned, I missed it, but 'forced' isn't really the term. Require, maybe.
Also, nice code. I'd be willing to try it.
It's pretty good, given the sort of game you are running. Most points I was worried about have already been addressed.
My only remaining concern is:
cranewings wrote: - leave behind someone who can be saved This is way too open-ended, and basically an open license to be screwed.
Generic Scenario: Paladin and two injured people are in "generic dangerous and unstable place". Paladin can
- Carry both, thus reducing his speed enough that all of them die
- Spend a minute getting his armor off before picking up both, thus wasting enough time that all of them die
- Carry one of the two out to safety, leaving the other to die, and thus losing his paladin-hood.
Yes, this is a "screw paladin" scenario, and I'm not saying that you are going to put the pally in it. But there are thousands of other examples I could put up with similar catches, traps, and pitfalls, which neither you nor the paladin might see until its too late to avoid.
For instance: group of Orcs attack "generic big target", there's two clumps of guards, each 60 feet away; whichever group the pally defends will be fine, but the other group will probably have some people die who "could have been saved", so the paladin falls.
The intent behind the idea is good; I'm not saying it should be dropped. But it's way too generic and open-ended; it needs to be reworded and clarified. The Paladin must always try, but he needs to be allowed to fail on occasion without falling.
BobChuck wrote: It's pretty good, given the sort of game you are running. Most points I was worried about have already been addressed.
My only remaining concern is:
cranewings wrote: - leave behind someone who can be saved This is way too open-ended, and basically an open license to be screwed.
Generic Scenario: Paladin and two injured people are in "generic dangerous and unstable place". Paladin can
- Carry both, thus reducing his speed enough that all of them die
- Spend a minute getting his armor off before picking up both, thus wasting enough time that all of them die
- Carry one of the two out to safety, leaving the other to die, and thus losing his paladin-hood.
Yes, this is a "screw paladin" scenario, and I'm not saying that you are going to put the pally in it. But there are thousands of other examples I could put up with similar catches, traps, and pitfalls, which neither you nor the paladin might see until its too late to avoid.
For instance: group of Orcs attack "generic big target", there's two clumps of guards, each 60 feet away; whichever group the pally defends will be fine, but the other group will probably have some people die who "could have been saved", so the paladin falls.
The intent behind the idea is good; I'm not saying it should be dropped. But it's way too generic and open-ended; it needs to be reworded and clarified. The Paladin must always try, but he needs to be allowed to fail on occasion without falling.
Peter Parker can grab the girl and hold the bus up (:
I'll probably take that like out.
cranewings wrote: Peter Parker can grab the girl and hold the bus up (:
I'll probably take that like out.
Ah, but your forget - the first time he tried it, with Gwen Stacy, he broke her neck.
(Unless they've changed it. They do that a lot.)
Which is my point. Paladins should be required to try, every time, no matter how risky it is, or how much it hurts. But they need to be allowed to fail; they'll beat themselves up enough on their own, they don't need their god smiting them on top of it.
Elton wrote: I can be that anal.
I'd give the Paladin player the Boy Scout Law, Scout Motto, and Scout Slogan. "This is the code of a Paladin, the Boy Scout Law, Scout Motto, and Scout Slogan. Live up to them."
And then show them this picture:
http://realheroposters.com/magento/index.php/catalog/product/gallery/id/4/i mage/31/
Then I'd say, "This picture is of a man who every Paladin should aspire to be."
While I don't think that's a very good picture, I definitely agree with the example. Very, very good paladin.
cranewings wrote: We actually worked this out for my last game:
*snip for space*
Yoinked!
Lyrax wrote: cranewings wrote: We actually worked this out for my last game:
*snip for space*
Yoinked! Glad you dig it.
cranewings wrote: Mr. Baron, thanks for the input! your welcome :)
MaxAstro wrote: I think that code is worlds better than the default code. My only issues with are the 10% wealth thing - which is specific to your campaign and wouldn't work as a more general paladin code - and not being able to ~ever~ kill a helpless foe.
There should be listed exceptions to that - or at least things that don't count as killing. Is destroying a helpless construct "killing"? What about a helpless skeleton? Devils/demons are banished back to their home plane - is that killing?
A paladin should always be able to act for the greater good, as long as the greater good is clear cut. A devil is ~always~ going to do more harm than good if left alive. Hence, a paladin should ~never~ be expected to spare a devil. Morally gray is lots of fun as long you let the paladin have the few things that are black and white to fall back on.
Agreed! There is a world of difference between a young rogue trying to steal to eat and a vampire. I would expect the paladin to show mercy to the rogue, but the vampire would get the stake every time!
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