Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?
Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?
That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)
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Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?
It should be based on having more than one thing in the encounter, and remembering that a CR equal fight is supposed to be easy for a party of four built with the 15 point buy system and following wealth by level, and having at least 4 encounters a day (each equal CR encounter intended to drain about 1/4 of resources.
And in most of these threads, it eventually comes out that people aren't doing one or all of the above things, and therefore should be fighting things of a higher CR level, and a larger variety of them so they can't predict which spells to memorize that day.
Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)
While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
75% vs a bad save sounds close to how i 'think' it is now.
You need to specify the maximum success rate that you are aiming for. Monster good saves go up by roughly 1/level according to the monster creation table. 50% success against good saves would mean DC 15 cap at level 1. That's not that much of a cap actually. If you completely max out your saves at level 1, then you can get DC 20 going human infernal sorceror using charm person with spell focus enchantment and greater spell focus which is 80% success. Now if we math things out, your casting stat goes up 1/4 levels from simple leveling, which levels to +1/8 DC per level. Throwing in headbands, that's +1/3 stat per level leading to +1/6 DC per level. This combined with the +1/2 spell level per level gives us +19/24 DC per level against the monster's +1 save per level. So at level 1, success rate is going to be at a maximum (I'm leaving persistent spell out of this, that makes things way more complicated, but ultimately tilts in favor of caster). Keep in mind that most people are going to have only DC 15-17 at level 1 typically (4-5 stat + 0-1 spell focus). So unless you really want to push down the rate much below 50%, I personally don't see much of a need.
Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
According to the monster creation chart, we're already typically looking at 65% against bad save before any DC capping.
75% vs a bad save sounds close to how i 'think' it is now.Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
Unfortunately, some people like to superbuff their DC with race/feats/traits/items to a ridiculous point. I'm trying to find a point where the spell save DC stays reasonable without venturing into the territory of "I win".
While I don't want to punish people for focusing on save. I don't want it to become stupid either.
I'll like to mention that a lot of my concern is high level based.
According to the monster creation chart, we're already typically looking at 65% against bad save before any DC capping.Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
Oh huh.
Looking at that chart, it seems a lot different than some monsters of the same CR.
Some examples:
CR13:
Good save: +16 Poor save: +12
Charybdis
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +14
Glabrezu
Fort +18, Ref +4, Will +11
Young Adult Red Dragon
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +13
Froghemoth
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +11
Viper Vine
Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +6
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75% vs a bad save sounds close to how i 'think' it is now.Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
Unfortunately, some people like to superbuff their DC with race/feats/traits/items to a ridiculous point. I'm trying to find a point where the spell save DC stays reasonable without venturing into the territory of "I win".
While I don't want to punish people for focusing on save. I don't want it to become stupid either.
I'll like to mention that a lot of my concern is high level based.
List off the highest save bonus you can get, and how many feats/traits it takes to get there. Then compare it to the save DC in the Bestiary, taking into consideration monsters that have immunities and such.
Why cripple your players' style? Adding such a limitation won't make the game fun for anyone.
There are surely better ways to handle such a simple problem more elegantly.
75% vs a bad save sounds close to how i 'think' it is now.Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
Unfortunately, some people like to superbuff their DC with race/feats/traits/items to a ridiculous point. I'm trying to find a point where the spell save DC stays reasonable without venturing into the territory of "I win".
While I don't want to punish people for focusing on save. I don't want it to become stupid either.
I'll like to mention that a lot of my concern is high level based.
I can fix a lot of high level issues about cheesed up DC's: ban spell perfection. Truly at high level, just make sure that you pick stuff that have appropriate saves. Going again with a human fey sorceror:
Spell perfection (dominate monster), spell focus + greater spell focus (enchantment)10+2(focuses)+2(bloodline)+4(perfection)+9(spell level)+13 stat (20 starting + 5 at level 20 + 5 book + 6 headband for 36 stat) = DC 40 which is 85% against good save. Throw out perfection it's 65% against good save. Don't give your casters a +5 book of casting stat, that's 50% against good save and 75% against bad save. Not a sorceror? That's 40% against good and 65% against bad. Honestly, DC's are only an issue at low level as long as you follow the monster creation table. It's all the things that circumvent saves that are a problem with casters at high levels.
According to the monster creation chart, we're already typically looking at 65% against bad save before any DC capping.Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
Oh huh.
Looking at that chart, it seems a lot different than some monsters of the same CR.
Some examples:
CR13:
Good save: +16 Poor save: +12Charybdis
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +14Glabrezu
Fort +18, Ref +4, Will +11Young Adult Red Dragon
Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +13Froghemoth
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +11Viper Vine
Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +6
Don't worry about reflex save that much, not many good spells target that. Also if you're going to allow casters full freedom, you'll need to tweak things. If the casters are still a problem, send things like awakened constructs at them or intelligent oozes. Also tucker's kobolds: http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/
75% vs a bad save sounds close to how i 'think' it is now.Say I wanted to cap spell save DC so that it does not because ridiculous against level appropriate encounters. How should the cap, based on level, be calculated so that other people other than casters can contribute to combat?That depends on what you consider to be too high. What kind of success rate are you wanting them to have? (note your answer/goal will probably get you a good deal of comments by posters saying you can never have the DC's high enough, but i'm trying to get a general idea of what your goal is to help)While I don't know a good number, lets just say 75% success rate against a bad save.
If others have an opinion on what a good number would be, they are welcome to suggest it.
Unfortunately, some people like to superbuff their DC with race/feats/traits/items to a ridiculous point. I'm trying to find a point where the spell save DC stays reasonable without venturing into the territory of "I win".
While I don't want to punish people for focusing on save. I don't want it to become stupid either.
I'll like to mention that a lot of my concern is high level based.
I can fix a lot of high level issues about cheesed up DC's: ban spell perfection. Truly at high level, just make sure that you pick stuff that have appropriate saves. Going again with a human fey sorceror:
Spell perfection (dominate monster), spell focus + greater spell focus (enchantment)
10+2(focuses)+2(bloodline)+4(perfection)+9(spell level)+13 stat (20 starting + 5 at level 20 + 5 book + 6 headband for 36 stat) = DC 40 which is 85% against good save. Throw out perfection it's 65% against good save. Don't give your casters a +5 book of casting stat, that's 50% against good save and 75% against bad save. Not a sorceror? That's 40% against good and 65% against bad. Honestly, DC's are only an issue at low...
But now I cannot give out loot such as +5 books of casting stat in order to maintain the type of DCs that I want. If there was a cap, I wouldn't have to worry about balancing DC. I can give out all the books I want. It might even make the players less obligated in wearing a headband of +stat if they have already hit the cap, and perhaps put something more fun in that slot.
However, it seems like I'll be removing Spell Perfection from my games if I choose not to cap my DCs.
However, it seems like I'll be removing Spell Perfection from my games if I choose not to cap my DCs.
It stops all kinds of really bad metamagic issues as well.
My suggestion would be this: You already found the list of recommended good/bad saves for CR. keep it marked and when you run, if your monsters are lower then what is on the chart, use the number there instead.
However, it seems like I'll be removing Spell Perfection from my games if I choose not to cap my DCs.It stops all kinds of really bad metamagic issues as well.
Bad metamagic issues? Like what? Spell Perfection FIXES many of the problems with metamagic.
Uh... sure, I`ll let you speak for yourself on that. I don`t think I could be as persuasive as you are:
So I can still hit somebody with a maximized (free) empowered (2) intensified (1) fireball AND a quickened maximized fireball in a single round (only using up a 6th-level and 5th-level spell slot, respectively?
That averages out to...
...176 damage on a failed save (round down), or 190 with a 15th-level evoker.
And that's not even accounting for metamagic rods!--------------------------------------------
I am NO good at mathematics WHATSOEVER. However, I recently boasted that my 15th-level character could make short work of any 20th-level CR monster my friends could pull our of the Bestiary.
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Metamagic feats don't take a full round to cast. They take a full round action. There's a HUGE difference there. Also, being of the arcane bloodline (look at the character sheet I provided) I can use metamgic several times each day without increasing the casting time.
I noticed a lot of the numbers you other posters are using are wrong. When it comes to bypassing spell resistance, my character doesn't have a caster level of 15, she has a caster level of 23. I said this in the OP. Seriously, look at the character sheet. I provided it for a reason.
Spell Perfection is what really makes it work. It doubles the Spell Focus DC increases as well as the Spell Penetration caster level increases.
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Most of those CR 20 creatures are incredibly intelligent and have most likely worked a long time to get to where they are. If I have even a 10% chance of wiping them out of existence, that gives me enough leverage/makes me enough of a threat to truthfully ask "Do you feel lucky punk? Well, do ya?"
Most intelligent creatures with that much to lose won't gamble with those odds (intelligent creatures wait till a win is guaranteed). I wonder if, upon a chance encounter and with my high Charisma, I could talk such a creature down and have us both walking away (since most sentient creatures don't want to die). And that's not even counting the party this character likely travels with. With a party at her side, I imagine her chances of survival (one way or another) go WAY up.
EDIT: Hmmm...maybe I should change some of the skills around and get ranks in Diplomacy. That'd be at least a +27 modifier. :D
BTW, I found this one especially choice, you`re essentially describing how you would characterize your uber-Ego-self-gratification Avatar to be a non-Intelligent being... Of course if your PC `dies`, nothing actually happens except a character death which most people don`t know your exact `body count` for anyways.-----------------------------------------------------
You should see what wizards and sorcerers built around Spell Perfection can do! Unlike the magus, they will have more slots to nova more times each day.
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Flesh to stone is by far the most powerful single target save or die* effect in the game. If you are looking to jack up DCs to impossible heights and take out powerful enemies one spell at a time, flesh to stone is the way to go.
For example, a 20th-level venerable lich transmuter could have a potential DC of 41.
15 intelligence modifier
10 base
06 spell level
04 heighten spell (up to 10th with Magical Lineage)
04 greater spell focus (with spell perfection)
02 lore seeker (with spell perfection
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41 FINAL DCBetween Preferred Spell and Spell Perfection, you will be able to "freeze" up to 30 targets each day with the above DC. You could even stack on Persistent Spell in order to force two saves at DC 39 each. Not much will get past it. (Arcane bloodline sorcerers of a similar build can get the DC to 43, or two DC 41's with Persistent spell.)
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(and just not to pick on you, another spell perfection fans that chimed in on the same threads:)
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Is no one else a fan of being able to spontaneously cast a spell that you can spontaneously add metamagic to with an overall level reduced by 1, and then finally add a metamagic for free?
Example: I have my True Seeing spell (that I had prepared because I'm a Diviner) and didn't have a use for it that day. I sacrifice it to cast a Calcific Touch modified by Reach +2 and Extend (a 6th level spell, by Magical Lineage) and then add on Dazing Spell or Maximize for free.
That was just from a cursory search of your post history for ¨Spell Perfection¨, of course. ;-)
LOL. Nice! I have a scary stalker fan! :P
"I am NO good at mathematics WHATSOEVER. However, I recently boasted that my 15th-level character could make short work of any 20th-level CR monster my friends could pull our of the Bestiary."
I would like to point out that, that boast was totally busted in actual playtests.
The one thing you're missing Quandary is that the above "crazy characters" require a LOT of investment and almost always end up becoming one trick ponies. Spell Perfection isn't broken by itself. I mean, seriously, most GMs don't even let their player make venerable characters (or liches)--and most players don't get easy access to ability increasing tomes/wishes--in order to pump their DCs to begin with.
You're not posting facts, merely taking things out of context. All of your quotes refer to theoretical builds that will likely never see the light of day in a real game (they either use things only the GM has access to, or require far too much investment for most players to concern themselves with).
Even if a GM let it get that far some how, it's easy enough for a GM to get around such one trick ponies without having to limit player creativity.
Bad metamagic issues? Like what? Spell Perfection FIXES many of the problems with metamagic.However, it seems like I'll be removing Spell Perfection from my games if I choose not to cap my DCs.It stops all kinds of really bad metamagic issues as well.
It's a metamagic cost reducer which is where casters go from remotely powerful to being able to destroy gods in one round. Start stacking them, and things get very very ugly very fast. Also keep in mind that it does a lot of things that you shouldn't normally be able to do. Take magical lineage (Dominate monster), spell perfection (dominate monster), and now summoners can quicken dominate monster! How about not having quickened level 9 spells (bard can do stuff like this too)? Also RAW, spell perfection doesn't close the loophole that it thinks it closed.
without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level
This means that the metamagic thrown on by perfection does not count towards level 9 cap. So we can have QEM enervate followed up by dazing EM enervate for 12 negative levels and save or be stunned for 4 rounds. That's the blasty method. Now here's the SoS method. Magical lineage (aqueous orb), persistent, dazing, sickening, height for 6, aqueous orb. First two saves are to avoid getting stunned for 9 rounds to a 10 ft. radius that you can direct to move(the perfection was applied to the heighten). If they make the saves then you go for a quickened, persistent, dazing, heighten for 2 aqueous orb. if they're still up, you can direct both of them for the next 20 rounds. Good luck making those 4 saves / round especially since the perfection will make those spell focus conjuration and elemental focus doubly effective. If we're an arcane sorceror, we got a DC of 44 with books, 41 without. DC 40 with books, 37 without, for everyone else. Keeping in mind that this just can swirl around stunning people at rate of 30 ft. per round. Also anyone who fails once is virtually auto-doomed because they'll be facing a -4 penalty to the save thereafter (-2 entanglement -2 sickened).
without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th levelThis means that the metamagic thrown on by perfection does not count towards level 9 cap.
That's BS. You are deliberately misreading it in hopes of making it sound more powerful than it is. The feat is not broken, but your (incorrect) interpretation of it is.
You do also know that only ONE metamagic feat applied to the perfected spell is free, right?
Nearly every example you provided is illegal.
without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th levelThis means that the metamagic thrown on by perfection does not count towards level 9 cap.That's BS. You are deliberately misreading it in hopes of making it sound more powerful than it is. The feat is not broken, but your (incorrect) interpretation of it is.
You do also know that only ONE metamagic feat applied to the perfected spell is free, right?
Nearly every example you provided is illegal.
First off, in both cases I did only count one meta being free. Let's take the orb: Heighten for 6 (this is the free one), persistent +2, dazing + 3, sickening +2, -1 for magical lineage, +3 for being level 3. That's 3+2+3+2-1 = 9. With the quickened example, chop off the sickening, cut heighten down to 2 and apply perfection to the quicken, that's 9.
The summoner example is 100% legit under any reading.
Do we need to get into the semantics of the word modified? Applying a metamagic that does not increase the spell's level modifies the spell level by 0. While I sympathize with your RAI interpretation to make it a reasonable feat, it's simply not RAW.
Do we need to get into the semantics of the word modified? Applying a metamagic that does not increase the spell's level modifies the spell level by 0. While I sympathize with your RAI interpretation to make it a reasonable feat, it's simply not RAW.
You are the first person I've ever encountered, on and off the forums, that follows that interpretation.
Do we need to get into the semantics of the word modified? Applying a metamagic that does not increase the spell's level modifies the spell level by 0. While I sympathize with your RAI interpretation to make it a reasonable feat, it's simply not RAW.You are the first person I've ever encountered, on and off the forums, that follows that interpretation.
I wouldn't actually use it in a game either, but if I had to argue the literal interpretation of it that'd have to be it. When working in theorycraft you gotta use the RAW interpretation. If my group wasn't so much about sticking to RAW I'd allow it in my game, so it's simpler just to forbid something than write in a bunch of interpretations. It is simply a feat that is much more powerful than most others and will only get worse when ultimate magic gets released.
DC's in Core are already capped, and with the "average" save bonus provided by the chart in the back of the bestiary on your "best" save or die spells you are looking at about a 55% success rate until level 17 at which point you can get to about a 75% success rate.
Realize that is against the good save of the monster, with a limited use resource (your highest level spell) at the highest level of play (level 20), doing everything in your power at the earliest possible levels to have the maximum DCs you can have. So the 3~4 times a day you can cast that SOD spell you fail about 45% of the time at your best -- and that's provided spell resistance doesn't stop your spell (it will on average kill about 25% of spells in a campaign assuming measures are taken to have the best chance of success against SR when possible), and you can find a target that is vulnerable to the spell in question (many SoD spells are countered by straight immunities from monsters of similar level).
After you cast all your highest level spells (and if you use them all on SoD spells then you don't have those spell slots for defensive, or utility needs) your percentage chance drops 5% per spell level you go down.
The witch is the single best SoD caster, and that's simply because she can bring her own debuffs to set herself up for success -- but even this takes at least a few rounds to really work.
Finally consider that save throw DCs have a hard cap -- but save throw bonuses do not. As such it is easy to render the supposedly "impossibly high" save throw DC to something the monsters (or players) can assume success on (saving on anything but a 1).
Easy answer:
Rule 16-20 always succeeds in save (not just 20).
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Move it up & down if you feel its too high / low. Also possible to say best save succeeds 6-20 or something, so that the players really have to use different spells to different opponents etc.