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If players bring character resources to the table that are not part of the Core Assumption, they have to provide the rules materials to run that material. This makes sure the material is at the table.
If adventures are making use of material from outside the core assumption, please include the rules resources to be able to run the materials provided. If an NPC has items out of the APG or any other source, please include the text in the adventure PDF. A note to see such-and-such source for how to run the item, by its essence, expands the core assumption of what the campaign expects GMs to have on hand when they run the adventure.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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This would be particularly true if the GM sat down at the table with no opportunity to prepare the scenario. (The material in the APG being available free on-line, of course, for those GMs who (a) have internet access and (b) an opportunity to look through the adventure before players arrive at the table.)
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It would also be nice if the chronicles that contain unusual items included the item's description and stat block as well.
In Murder on the Throaty Mermaid the poison used by the elves is listed as an item for purchase. However, the stats are not listed. If a PC decides, later, to buy any, s/he would need to buy the mod or find someone who had it to get the stats.
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Just wondering, but how tight of a reign to you guys keep your players on this? Obviously if someone has been there for awhile, you could insist they have the material, but what about 'newer' players? How many sessions do you let them go using a friends book or pdf, for example?
I'm pretty lenient on this. For the most part, if I have the book (printed or pdf) with me, and I own nearly everything back to the OGL content, I'm not militant that they have their own copy, at least not right away. However, I do "encourage" them to buy, at least, the core assumption and it just so happens that the FLGS has them in stock. **The owner likes it when I do that.** However, my patience does have limits. There is one player in our local group that has been playing for roughly a year...and no books. Not even pfd's. He even has to ask for a fresh character sheet when he works on a new one. It's frustrating because two of his characters are a druid and sorcerer. Since he doesn't have the books, he is constantly borrowing them from me (GM'ing) during the game to look up spells. He plays the "poor" card, but has no problem buying multiple packs of Yu-Gi-Oh and WOW cards each week and playing in weekly sealed-pack draft tournaments with entry fees. I'm sure, in a year's time, he could have sprung for at least a pfd, or two, and printed what he needed. Anyway, after repeated warnings, especially in regards to the non-core APG and "splat" books, I've started telling him no. As far as the CRB, he now just borrows it from one of the other players. **sigh**.
Just wondering, but how tight of a reign to you guys keep your players on this? Obviously if someone has been there for awhile, you could insist they have the material, but what about 'newer' players? How many sessions do you let them go using a friends book or pdf, for example?
As Josh, the former head of the PFS, once said, so long as the borrowing of a book or the sharing of a book between players does not interfere with the flow of the game, then it is fine. But just a note for you, people can never borrow a pdf and use it. That is against the rules of both the PFS and Paizo. What they can do, however, is have the pages they need printed out from their friend's pdf and use that, but they have to return the print outs to their friend at the end of the scenario, as you are not allowed to give away print outs of anything other than the character sheet. Again, this is Paizo's rules you are supposed to follow when you buy their pdf's.
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Just wondering, but how tight of a reign to you guys keep your players on this? Obviously if someone has been there for awhile, you could insist they have the material, but what about 'newer' players? How many sessions do you let them go using a friends book or pdf, for example?
As long as the GM as access to the Source material, the player does not need to bring it themselves. For example I bring all my PDFs of all the books during my game, so My players do not need to bring thier own.
That said if you go to a convetion it is a good idea to bring your own, I tell all my players this so they realize even if they don't bring the bookd to the games, they should still own they if they use something from them because a GM can call them on it at a Con.
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But just a note for you, people can never borrow a pdf and use it. That is against the rules of both the PFS and Paizo. What they can do, however, is have the pages they need printed out from their friend's pdf and use that, but they have to return the print outs to their friend at the end of the scenario, as you are not allowed to give away print outs of anything other than the character sheet.
IMO, this is ridiculous. So it's okay for me to print out the class section of Cavalier and hand it to another player to use during the game (as long as he gives it back), but it's not okay for me to hand him my notebook with the pdf pulled up and reference it that way?!? Makes no sense. While it might not be "right," are you, as the GM or coordinator, going to tell a player at the table "no" when they ask another player, "can I borrow your APG for a sec?"
Just to clarify, I do not, in any way, condone violating copyright. I buy all my own material and expect others to do the same. I think my position is clear from the previous post. However, I am not the "printed word police."
But just a note for you, people can never borrow a pdf and use it. That is against the rules of both the PFS and Paizo. What they can do, however, is have the pages they need printed out from their friend's pdf and use that, but they have to return the print outs to their friend at the end of the scenario, as you are not allowed to give away print outs of anything other than the character sheet.IMO, this is ridiculous. So it's okay for me to print out the class section of Cavalier and hand it to another player to use during the game (as long as he gives it back), but it's not okay for me to hand him my notebook with the pdf pulled up and reference it that way?!? Makes no sense. While it might not be "right," are you, as the GM or coordinator, going to tell a player at the table "no" when they ask another player, "can I borrow your APG for a sec?"
Just to clarify, I do not, in any way, condone violating copyright. I buy all my own material and expect others to do the same. I think my position is clear from the previous post. However, I am not the "printed word police."
Doesn't matter what I think, that is the official policy of Mark and Hyrum, and Josh before them, and is also Paizo's legal stance on the matter. This has been discussed many times before in many threads.
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As long as the GM as access to the Source material, the player does not need to bring it themselves.
I do this myself, but unfortunately, some players seem to get a sense of entitlement and I've had to start being a bit more "firm" in telling them the rules about buying their own material. I guess being a "Hard-ass GM" is a learned trait ;-)
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Doesn't matter what I think, that is the official policy of Mark and Hyrum, and Josh before them, and is also Paizo's legal stance on the matter. This has been discussed many times before in many threads.
You can let them borrow you PDF on your computer or tablet, what you Can't do is actually give them the file.
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...that is the official policy of Mark and Hyrum, and Josh before them, and is also Paizo's legal stance on the matter. This has been discussed many times before in many threads.
I get that, and so do most of us. What I am saying, is that how it works in practice? I have never (in 2-1/2 years) seen a GM or coordinator jump up and say, "NO, you cannot borrow his book" to a player at the table despite seeing it happen all the time. We all know the intent of the rule and Paizo employees have a right to protect their intellectual property. No one is saying otherwise. I just don't see any enforcement of the RAW/RAI for this issue and some players take advantage of it. I think most of us are loath to take a hard-line stance because it could (1) have a negative impact on the impressions of new/casual players, and (2) the "scorned" player may boycott not only the game, but the entire FLGS (which I've seen on two occasions).
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Just to clarify, I do not, in any way, condone violating copyright. I buy all my own material and expect others to do the same. I think my position is clear from the previous post. However, I am not the "printed word police."
Having busted a player for illegally downloaded PDFs at the table, I do insist on seeing the PDFs. I respect Paizo's legal need to protect their documents, and out of respect I don't permit them at my table. The only way I can verify this is to see the original. So yes, I do verify that a player has the source.
No I can't verify that they haven't grabbed a friend's PDF, but frankly, at that point there's little I can do and mostly what I'm trying to prevent is players who show up with PDFs with no watermark from abusing things.
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Thanks for the thread jack, guys. :)
I appreciate y'all have the issue that you want to discuss regarding players having rules resources at the table. The internet being what it is, this sort of thing will happen. But, the chance of now getting my original post through to TPTB is close to nil. :)
Howie, maybe you could list some specifice examples (in spoilers) of things that you felt needed further rules.
For the most part, rules have been presented with non-core items (ex APG classes)|
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Howie, maybe you could list some specifice examples (in spoilers) of things that you felt needed further rules.
For the most part, rules have been presented with non-core items (ex APG classes)
I can give you a few examples.. From Penumbral Accords
alchemical grease
weapon blanch (adamantine)
liquid ice
All new items from the APG, all with notes that they are from the APG but no rules on how they work. I think he is talking about stuff like that.
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I appreciate the responses and suggestions, but this sounds more and more like a "The official answer is X, but I do A, B, or C". While A,B, or C might not be far off of X, its not the same.
Not judging anyone, just something Im noticing.
Most of the people at our venue at least have bought their own copy of the core book, if not the pdf. But we do have a few players who have been playing for awhile now (awhile being months, not years) and still no purchase of their own. They are friends, so I hesitate to be a 'hard-@ss GM' about it, but it kinda unfair for those of us who did purchase the source material.
Edit: I must admit, I dont personally own the Seeker of Secrets (though that was out of ignorance of it's Core Assumptionness), but the main GM has a copy. Im planning on buying it before the next session, if the lgs has a copy.
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Howie, maybe you could list some specifice examples (in spoilers) of things that you felt needed further rules.
For the most part, rules have been presented with non-core items (ex APG classes)
DragnMoon has provided what prompted the post:
From Penumbral Accords
alchemical grease
weapon blanch (adamantine)
liquid ice
I don't know how prevelant it is. I haven't run many PFS. I'm prepping the mod mentioned above for a con this weekend, and am also being called upon to run a mod cold, to be decided at play time.