Let's say a wizard starts play at 10th level, and obviously he wants more spells in his spellbook/s than the few he gets just from leveling.
In Chapter 9, page 219 of the Core book, it says, "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook... Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more."
My questions are (assuming the standard wealth by level chart, and a standard Pathfinder game world):
What method do you think should be used for charging a mid/high-level wizard to start play with extra spells (those not granted through leveling) in his spellbook/s?
Do you think that, at character creation with only starting wealth from the wealth by level list, charging full price for scrolls and scribing costs for every spell added beyond what he gains from leveling is fair?
Would you allow a wizard building his spellbook at character creation to have copied a reasonably common or standard spell at the lower cost of copying from another wizard's spellbooks instead of assuming that they must have bought the scroll and copied from the scroll for all spells?
Additionally, if a wizard invests in item creation feats, and has the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth to spend in materials, should he be allowed to start play with appropriate items as if he had crafted them himself (e.g. extra scrolls that are already in his spellbook/s, wands of spells already in his spellbook/s, wondrous items of a CL whose DC he can sufficiently match either on a 1 or through taking 10 and thus be guaranteed success, etc.)? Particularly if the item creation feats were gained at levels below the one with which he starts play, and he could have had the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth available to have crafted them at that level were he to have been playing it before character creation.
For what it's worth, I recently built two characters at the same level, one of which was a wizard. I had to assume that even with the wizard's investment in item creation feats, he started play as if he bought everything, and build the inventory appropriately.
The wizard ended up investing nearly half of his wealth on scrolls plus spellbook scribing costs (before I removed quite a few spells to reduce that cost), and spent the rest of it on things he couldn't or wouldn't craft (or did not spend it at all).
The other character, however, simply bought things that seemed to match their needs at that level, and seemed to have more value in the items in comparison than the wizard.
The problem for me is that not only did the wizard consume a feat (which for a wizard is a valuable and limited resource, as it means he cannot put something like Spell Penetration in that feat slot) to have item creation abilities above the Scribe Scroll feat that he gets for free at 1st level, but he had absolutely no advantage to having that feat at character creation, while the other character had full advantage of all feats chosen.
I understand that item creation feats will help during play even if they don't at character creation, but they do consume a feat, and they are of much less personal benefit to a character if they choose to craft items for anyone but themselves (since you can only craft one thing at a time, and items become more expensive and take longer to craft, meaning your output is reduced for the most part).
Hopefully these questions have been stated well, and I look forward to hearing all of your personal opinions on the matter (including your own house rulings on the subjects if you have made any - or an official response if there is one to be made).
Nigrescence wrote:
My questions are (assuming the standard wealth by level chart, and a standard Pathfinder game world):
What method do you think should be used for charging a mid/high-level wizard to start play with extra spells (those not granted through leveling) in his spellbook/s?
After determining the characters starting wealth let him purchase scrolls of the extra spells that he wants with part of that, and then allow him to attempt to put them into his spellbook before play begins.
Nigrescence wrote: Do you think that, at character creation with only starting wealth from the wealth by level list, charging full price for scrolls and scribing costs for every spell added beyond what he gains from leveling is fair?
Would you allow a wizard building his spellbook at character creation to have copied a reasonably common or standard spell at the lower cost of copying from another wizard's spellbooks instead of assuming that they must have bought the scroll and copied from the scroll for all spells?
see above, although I could see giving the wizard a break on a few spells that are particularly 'common' and only charging half price (and assuming that he found a fellow wizard to copy it from), I probably would not do this for more then 3-4 spells though.
Nigrescence wrote:
Additionally, if a wizard invests in item creation feats, and has the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth to spend in materials, should he be allowed to start play with appropriate items as if he had crafted them himself (e.g. extra scrolls that are already in his spellbook/s, wands of spells already in his spellbook/s, wondrous items of a CL whose DC he can sufficiently match either on a 1 or through taking 10 and thus be guaranteed success, etc.)? Particularly if the item creation feats were gained at levels below the one with which he starts play, and he could have had the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth available to have crafted them at that level were he to have been playing it before character creation.
absolutely, a character that begins play with crafting feats should be able to 'purchase' those items that he can meet the requisites for crafting for the items cost rather than its price.
cwslyclgh wrote: After determining the characters starting wealth let him purchase scrolls of the extra spells that he wants with part of that, and then allow him to attempt to put them into his spellbook before play begins. Alright, but would you use his current level's Spellcraft check to copy them, or would you use it at appropriate levels for learning the spells? My vote goes to the latter, even if it means more rolling (if it's not an automatic success, that is).
cwslyclgh wrote: see above, although I could see giving the wizard a break on a few spells that are particularly 'common' and only charging half price (and assuming that he found a fellow wizard to copy it from), I probably would not do this for more then 3-4 spells though. Are you sure only four spells would get this? There are "common" spells from every level, especially the lower level spells (1 and 2, and possibly 3). Would you roll to randomly determine what spells in each spell level are "common" enough for him to find in this manner? Perhaps we should work out a solid mechanical rule for this kind of thing. Some balanced system to determine these things.
My main point is that spells and in particular having many different spells IS perhaps the wizard's single most important class feature. Rogues don't need to pay gold to get their talents if they start at level ten, fighters don't need to pay gold to get their bonus feats and combat styles, and clerics are like wizards with all (or nearly all) of the divine spells available to them, except that clerics don't have to depend on spellbooks, and they don't need to obtain scrolls to get their spell versatility.
When building a wizard at higher levels (anything above 4), you really need to spend so much of your wealth by level on spells if you assume scrolls are the only way your wizard has learned new spells aside from the ones gained by leveling. Yet, hand-waving the cost to put spells in your spellbooks makes it so that every wizard might as well put them all in there. What's a good and balanced way to deal with these kinds of things?
cwslyclgh wrote: absolutely, a character that begins play with crafting feats should be able to 'purchase' those items that he can meet the requisites for crafting for the items cost rather than its price. That's how I feel, especially if he uses an arcane bond item and not a familiar.
Nigrescence wrote: cwslyclgh wrote: After determining the characters starting wealth let him purchase scrolls of the extra spells that he wants with part of that, and then allow him to attempt to put them into his spellbook before play begins. Alright, but would you use his current level's Spellcraft check to copy them, or would you use it at appropriate levels for learning the spells? My vote goes to the latter, even if it means more rolling (if it's not an automatic success, that is).
since a failed check doesn't destroy the scroll and he can try again when he gains another point of spellcraft, I would probably only make him roll for the 5th level spells (each of which he would get 2 tries to do, once at 9th level and once at 10th), for the lower level spells I would just assume he kept retrying any that he might have failed on until he was successful.
The reason I would only go half-price on a few spells is because I generally feel that the sort of NPC interaction that goes along with convincing a fellow wizard to let you copy spells from his spell book is better handled in game rather than as back story.
Nigrescence wrote: Would you allow a wizard building his spellbook at character creation to have copied a reasonably common or standard spell at the lower cost of copying from another wizard's spellbooks instead of assuming that they must have bought the scroll and copied from the scroll for all spells? I would allow the wizard to pay the +½ inscription cost for having borrowed spell books. At spell levels 6+ I might restrict him from it, just as rare spells (entirely subjective on my part), might not be availiable.
But as a generel rule, the magic rules propose a price for borrowing spell books, just like any other trade good. I don't see a reason not to follow it.
Nigrescence wrote: Additionally, if a wizard invests in item creation feats, and has the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth to spend in materials, should he be allowed to start play with appropriate items as if he had crafted them himself (e.g. extra scrolls that are already in his spellbook/s, wands of spells already in his spellbook/s, wondrous items of a CL whose DC he can sufficiently match either on a 1 or through taking 10 and thus be guaranteed success, etc.)? Particularly if the item creation feats were gained at levels below the one with which he starts play, and he could have had the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth available to have crafted them at that level were he to have been playing it before character creation. For magic gear in generel: This would depend on the level of the character, if I was going to judge it. At lower levels, I would definatly allow it, as I will give him something for taking the feat without making him much more powerful than other characters.
At higher levels it might be more problematic, if the character in question has a lot of creation feats and/or invest all his gp in items he can create himself. At level 10 for example, that could make a considerate power boost, the could be unbalancing. I especially don't like, because if he played the character from level 1, a lot of the gear he is carrying wouldn't be home made, but found/bought instead.
For scrolls and wands: I don't think there is a reason to disallow a discount on those, if it is spells he got in his spell book.
Nigrescence wrote:
What method do you think should be used for charging a mid/high-level wizard to start play with extra spells (those not granted through leveling) in his spellbook/s?
I normally do the following:
First your normal spells (starting spells + 2 per level) these go in the book for free. Next add in 1 spell per character level(the spell level is restricted to a spell you can cast based on character level) that can be added in at just the cost of writing the spell in the book. The rest have to be bought from scrolls in starting wealth.
Quote:
Do you think that, at character creation with only starting wealth from the wealth by level list, charging full price for scrolls and scribing costs for every spell added beyond what he gains from leveling is fair?
Generally I allow up to 10% of starting wealth to be used on scrolls or potions and 20% on other magic item creation if available. If you took the feats your wealth will be a little bit above normal with normal treasure (which I think is fair due to the opportunity cost of the crafting feats). However scribed scrolls at creation need to be scrolls that come from the starting/3 per level spells). Anything outside that has to be purchased from your wealth at full price.
Quote:
Would you allow a wizard building his spellbook at character creation to have copied a reasonably common or standard spell at the lower cost of copying from another wizard's spellbooks instead of assuming that they must have bought the scroll and copied from the scroll for all spells?
Like i said you get 1 spell per character level (of a spell level you can cast at that level) for the cost of just writing it into your spell book (as if you had copied it from another spellbook)
Quote:
Additionally, if a wizard invests in item creation feats, and has the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth to spend in materials, should he be allowed to start play with appropriate items as if he had crafted them himself (e.g. extra scrolls that are already in his spellbook/s, wands of spells already in his spellbook/s, wondrous items of a CL whose DC he can sufficiently match either on a 1 or through taking 10 and thus be guaranteed success, etc.)? Particularly if the item creation feats were gained at levels below the one with which he starts play, and he could have had the appropriate skill rank levels, spells available, and wealth available to have crafted them at that level were he to have been playing it before character creation.
Up to 20% of their wealth can be spent in crafting magic items (rings, rods, wonderous items, etc), and 10% on scrolls the wizard has scribed.
Quote:
For what it's worth, I recently built two characters at the same level, one of which was a wizard. I had to assume that even with the wizard's investment in item creation feats, he started play as if he bought everything, and build the inventory appropriately.
The wizard ended up investing nearly half of his wealth on scrolls plus spellbook scribing costs (before I removed quite a few spells to reduce that cost), and spent the rest of it on things he couldn't or wouldn't craft (or did not spend it at all).
The other character, however, simply bought things that seemed to match their needs at that level, and seemed to have more value in the items in comparison than the wizard.
The problem for me is that not only did the wizard consume a feat (which for a wizard is a valuable and limited resource, as it means he cannot put something like Spell Penetration in that feat slot) to have item creation abilities above the Scribe Scroll feat that he gets for free at 1st level, but he had absolutely no advantage to having that feat at character creation, while the other character had full advantage of all feats chosen.
Personally I agree. The fighter gets use of weapon focus from the moment we start playing the game. The caster shouldnt have to wait for adventure downtime in order to get use of his crafting feats.
I just wanted to chime in on my long-standing feeling on creating high level characters with crafting feats.
Namely, the crafting feats should *not* be allowed to give the player a discount on his items at that point.
The amount of money each PC starts with at higher levels is meant to represent the *value* of their items at that point. Whether a PC crafted an item or not, its value is still the same.
Craft feats are meant to be used within the game itself, not as a discount of sorts to 'purchasing' goods before hand (especially since no one is really 'purchasing' anything).
Not sure how the Fighter's weapon focus compares. It's not as if he got to use it before the game in anyway, he still has to wait for the game to start before he uses it. If the party gets nothing but a week of downtime before any combat, then isn't the guy with crafting suddenly getting more use out of it then the Fighter's weapon focus? You could look at it either way.
Just my two cents.
I somewhat recently had a Wizard begin play in my campaign at 9th-level. I did not let him start out with any extra spells, but he has been allowed to purchase any scroll since he has started play, and he has been able to write them pretty quickly into his spellbook using the downtime during adventures.
If I allowed a Wizard to begin play with extra spells, he would have to pay the full cost of the scroll and the writing process. There would be some limit on the amount of wealth that could be used for this because it's not like every scroll he found before this point would be a scroll that he would want in his spellbook, and some that were found might have been used in a "we need to use this now or die" moment before he had a chance to write it into the spellbook. Maybe this would be half of whatever amount of starting wealth can usually be spent on scrolls. So if 20% of starting wealth can be spent on these kind of limited magic items, then he could use 10% to buy scrolls that are now in his spellbook. He could use the other 10% to also but scrolls, but these would be actual scrolls that are not in his spellbook (yet). I wouldn't bother with making Spellcraft rolls or placing a limit on spell level. He can only put the 10% into his spellbook, but it is assumed he succeeded, and that seems like a fair trade-off to me...there is a limit to amount but not spell level, and everything within the limit succeeded.
If I allowed a Wizard to borrow another Wizard's spellbook before play, I would probably allow him to copy one spell per level per point of Cha bonus...but maybe not for the highest spell level. Therefore, if a 9th-level Wizard has a +2 Cha bonus, he can put 2 spells per level into his spellbook by borrowing someone else's spellbook, but maybe not for 5th-level spells. If a Wizard has a +0 Cha bonus, he gets no spells this way. Additionally, if a Wizard begins play with a magic item that boosts Cha, it is assumed that he just obtained this item, so it does not affect the Cha bonus for borrowing spellbooks in the past.
As for Item Creation feats, I would probably not allow a character to make items on the cheap before play begins. I think Karui Kage makes a very good point about "starting wealth" being the amount of wealth that you start out with. If a 10th-level character is supposed to have 82,000 gp, why would they be able to begin play at 90,000 gp or 100,000 gp when other characters cannot? Plus the fact that it could unbalance encounters if a character has 10% or 20% or more wealth than they are supposed to. And if a Wizard could make items before play for himself, then why not for the other characters too?
I let people use their starting wealth on crafting pre-campaign.
After all, what's to stop them from simply not using any of their starting wealth, then spending the first several weeks of the campaign to do the crafting instead of going on adventures? Much easier to just let them do it beforehand :)
Likewise with scrolls. Buying scrolls at full price with your starting wealth is no different from buying that +2 keen longsword, and then spending some more starting wealth to have those spells in your spellbook instead of in scroll-form is fine by me.
Otherwise, your starting Nth-level characters will be worse off than if they had already been playing a campaign until Nth-level.
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I allow people to both buy new spells as well as get discounted items at higher levels if they have item creation feats. In the case of spells, they must pay for both the privilege of looking at another's book AND the scribing costs. If they have a blessed book, then the scribing cost is waved, but they must still pay for access.
It only makes sense that way. Though I agree that starting funds aren't actually "buying stuff," but that doesn't change the fact that a person who spends time crafting things in an actual game WILL end up with more stuff as a result of his feat investment.
Also, having a high-level wizard begin play with the bare minimum of spells known just doesn't make sense to me. Every wizard out there desires to further their own power and learn new spells. Also, a wizard played from level one will undoubtedly pick up extra spells from scrolls, captured spellbooks, friendly NPCs, etc. So why shouldn't the high level wizard who starts at high level?
GMs who rule against wizards create a logical disconnect.
I can understand not ruling as I do for fear of game imbalance, but other justifications often boil down to little more than GM deutschbaggery.
Are wrote: Otherwise, your starting Nth-level characters will be worse off than if they had already been playing a campaign until Nth-level. I don't agree with this. At best, it depends on the character and what you consider worse and probably several other things.
If you say, your Nth-level Wizard will be start off with less spells in their spellbook than if they had already been playing a campaign until Nth-level, that I agree with.
However, I think there is a big benefit to starting off at higher levels in terms of equipment. The benefit is that all your items are exactly what you want. I've never played a campaign where several levels down the road, my character has (found or bought) exactly the items I would have given to him if I was just starting out at that level. If anything, some of my wealth gained through the campaign is "wasted" on items that are weren't enough to be sold at that point and might be useful in some circumstance, so I hang onto them... but that's not the same as being able to pool all that "wasted" wealth together to buy 1 or 2 items I'd really like to have (but would not be able to do by simply selling off these extra items at half price).
reefwood wrote: Are wrote: Otherwise, your starting Nth-level characters will be worse off than if they had already been playing a campaign until Nth-level. If you say, your Nth-level Wizard will be start off with less spells in their spellbook than if they had already been playing a campaign until Nth-level, that I agree with.
That was what I was going for, yes.
I agree there are a large number of benefits to starting at a higher level (you automatically survived to that level, for instance, and you can customize your equipment to your desires), but those benefits are essentially equal for all characters.
If you assume that the Fighter was able to find/buy the perfect weapon, then you should also assume that the Wizard was able to find/buy the perfect scrolls.
reefwood wrote: Are wrote: Otherwise, your starting Nth-level characters will be worse off than if they had already been playing a campaign until Nth-level. I don't agree with this. At best, it depends on the character and what you consider worse and probably several other things.
If you say, your Nth-level Wizard will be start off with less spells in their spellbook than if they had already been playing a campaign until Nth-level, that I agree with.
However, I think there is a big benefit to starting off at higher levels in terms of equipment. The benefit is that all your items are exactly what you want. I've never played a campaign where several levels down the road, my character has (found or bought) exactly the items I would have given to him if I was just starting out at that level. If anything, some of my wealth gained through the campaign is "wasted" on items that are weren't enough to be sold at that point and might be useful in some circumstance, so I hang onto them... but that's not the same as being able to pool all that "wasted" wealth together to buy 1 or 2 items I'd really like to have (but would not be able to do by simply selling off these extra items at half price). Here's something important to remember, though. In Pathfinder, someone with item creation feats may "use" an existing magic item as raw materials in the creation of another magic item. Find a +1 longsword as a Wizard? No problem. It provides half the listed value as magic materials (which is exactly the cost of crafting it). So, your efficiency with magic items is perfect. You can convert undesirable magic items into desirable ones without the loss from having to sell them and then buy new ones. You can also just sell the item at half price, and purchase materials for new magic items... at half price. Another way to do it, but it's still full efficiency thanks to having crafting. Obviously, you can only do this with magic items you yourself can create.
Of course, it depends on the players not to try to exploit this, and it depends on the DM to not give them a chance to exploit this too much, but I'm just reminding you that this is how it can work for a crafter.
Are wrote: If you assume that the Fighter was able to find/buy the perfect weapon, then you should also assume that the Wizard was able to find/buy the perfect scrolls. Oh yeah, I am fine with letting the Wizard start out with a reasonable amount of scrolls. Any scrolls. The perfect scrolls. I just don't assume that the Wizard got them several levels ago and put them in his spellbook already. Just like I wouldn't assume the Fighter got his +2 flaming longsword at 5th-level ;)
Nigrescence wrote: Here's something important to remember, though. In Pathfinder, someone with item creation feats may "use" an existing magic item as raw materials in the creation of another magic item. Find a +1 longsword as a Wizard? No problem. It provides half the listed value as magic materials (which is exactly the cost of crafting it). So, your efficiency with magic items is perfect. You can convert undesirable magic items into desirable ones without the loss from having to sell them and then buy new ones. You can also just sell the item at half price, and purchase materials for new magic items... at half price. Another way to do it, but it's still full efficiency thanks to having crafting. Obviously, you can only do this with magic items you yourself can create. Thanks for pointing that out. I must have overlooked this part of the magic item creation rules. This could give me a good reason to provide an NPC Wizard with magic items that do him little good but that the PCs might want. Maybe he attacks the PCs to get their magic items because he is trying to collect enough magic items to drain for something more powerful. If the PCs win, they get access to his stockpile of magic items taken from other adventurers.
Although, I still wouldn't let the PCs pre-make items on the cheap. More out of balance than the half-price thing.
And another thing I thought about in response to the person who posted about using feats but not getting their benefit until starting play... it's not just item creationists that can use feats that do them little or no good, but they do it to get better things in the future. Like the Fighter who takes Mobility to reach Spring Attack but never really uses Mobility. Or the Wizard who takes Spell Focus (conjuration) to gain Augment Summoning but doesn't use that first feat for anything else. And yes, I know these examples aren't quite the same thing.
Anyway, I just feel that if you are supposed to have X amount of wealth that is divided up into Y gp for this type of item, Z gp for another type of item, and so on...then by default at least, that's what you should start out with when using a new character. I've allowed PCs to use Diplomacy to get discounts on items at times, but I wouldn't let the PC who maxed out Diplomacy buy items on the cheap before he begins play. Again, not the same situation but along similar lines.
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Nigrescence wrote: Here's something important to remember, though. In Pathfinder, someone with item creation feats may "use" an existing magic item as raw materials in the creation of another magic item. Where do the rules say you can do that?
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In the one campaign where I am a player, I have a ranger/mage/EK who is 7th level. He only has two magic items, both of which he made himself. Most of his gold has gone towards paying for access to spellbooks and scribing costs.
So, I would allow a wizard character to pay for access and scribing costs to obtain more spells for his spellbooks - spells that are scribed into his spellbook(s) before play.
I would also likely allow them to use all of their gold to make items, or a large portion of it if they had the appropriate item creation feats.
Ravingdork wrote: Nigrescence wrote: Here's something important to remember, though. In Pathfinder, someone with item creation feats may "use" an existing magic item as raw materials in the creation of another magic item. Where do the rules say you can do that? You know, I can't seem to find it. It must be my imagination. Sorry for that mistake.
You can, however, sell an item for half price and then buy materials, so it's effectively the same thing. That's probably where I got that idea. In practical terms, you ARE converting it from one item to the next, you just include a step between that where you buy new materials with the proceeds of selling the old item.
The point is that you can "convert" a found item into a crafted item with no loss (and even a gain if you have the Hedge Magician trait).
reefwood wrote: And another thing I thought about in response to the person who posted about using feats but not getting their benefit until starting play... it's not just item creationists that can use feats that do them little or no good, but they do it to get better things in the future. Like the Fighter who takes Mobility to reach Spring Attack but never really uses Mobility. Or the Wizard who takes Spell Focus (conjuration) to gain Augment Summoning but doesn't use that first feat for anything else. And yes, I know these examples aren't quite the same thing. The difference is that Mobility STILL provides a solid mechanical effect that can benefit the Fighter at any time (and Mobility isn't even a bad feat in and of itself anyway - if anything it works perfectly in conjunction with Spring Attack - the Fighter can more safely move through combat to get to the enemy he actually wants to fight). So does Spell Focus (Conjuration), and I will remind you that there are many great Conjuration spells that benefit from an increased DC, even if they are really gunning for Augment Summoning.
Your argument falls flat due to these facts, and on top of that it is incomparable because the item creation feats don't depend on a prerequisite feat. I WANT the item creation feat and its benefits, but were I to just want Augment Summoning, it is incomparable because I have to decide whether I want it enough to burn an extra feat on the prerequisite feat, or will be silly enough to not take advantage of the prerequisite feat since I have to have it anyway. You are comparing a feat I want to a feat I have to have for a later feat that I want. They are not fair comparisons.
Compare Craft Wondrous Items with Power Attack or Combat Reflexes for a more fair comparison. Yeah, being unable to craft at character creation does remove the feat's power (and I'll remind you that it is the item creation feat's ONLY power) from my character whereas someone with Power Attack or Combat Reflexes will have access to its advantages right from the start.
reefwood wrote: Although, I still wouldn't let the PCs pre-make items on the cheap. More out of balance than the half-price thing. If it were a balance concern, then you should disallow item creation feats altogether (except the scribe scroll ability which is a Wizard class feature).
Nigrescence wrote: The difference is that Mobility STILL...will have access to its advantages right from the start. You may have missed the couple times I already pointed out that the comparisons were not perfect.
And actually, any feat can be used as soon as you begin play. It just depends if the situation arises. A melee character isn't going to get much use out of Power Attack if the attackers are flying and using ranged weapons. And an item creationist could use starting wealth on a reasonable amount of gold to purchase raw materials and do that at the start of the adventure. Or a charismatic character could make Diplomacy checks to talk down shopkeepers and use that gold to buy discounted items.
Quote: If it were a balance concern, then you should disallow item creation feats altogether (except the scribe scroll ability which is a Wizard class feature). Should I? I'm all for sharing how I would handle things when it comes to potentially fuzzy topics, but I try not to tell other people what they should do. When discussing RAW, or even RAI, that might be another matter, but not so much for this.
I don't have any problem with item creation feats. I'd just rather have my players use them (or any other abilities) in the game than before the game.
reefwood wrote: You may have missed the couple times I already pointed out that the comparisons were not perfect. I didn't miss them, and I'll look past your poorly veiled attempt at an insult. I reiterated the point precisely because it's just that important. Perhaps you are just unable to read, because I explained exactly why their incomparable qualities should disregard even trying to compare them.
reefwood wrote: And actually, any feat can be used as soon as you begin play. What other feats require days and hours of investment to use them? You're wrong on this point, yet again.
reefwood wrote: It just depends if the situation arises. A melee character isn't going to get much use out of Power Attack if the attackers are flying and using ranged weapons. If he's silly enough to not have at least one ranged weapon with him, or if you're at a level where flying things are much more common, silly enough to not invest in flight items (or just some way for him to avoid or deal with such a problem), that's entirely his fault, and not the feat's. If the flying things are brought down to his level, or he is brought up to theirs (or he simply takes cover, which is relatively easy), your very poor point is quite easily negated. For that matter, you may as well say that a melee character isn't going to get much use out of Weapon Focus (Any) if he's fighting an incorporeal being, or that any caster isn't getting much use out of the large majority of his spells if he's fighting a golem. You literally have to contrive situations DESIGNED to negate his character just to even attempt to make your point, and you're STILL wrong.
That's desperate.
Stop trying to use exact countering situations for these horribly bad attempts at making a point, and actually make a point. We can all think of exact counters for absolutely every character and feat ever made. That's not the point.
reefwood wrote: And an item creationist could use starting wealth on a reasonable amount of gold to purchase raw materials and do that at the start of the adventure. Or a charismatic character could make Diplomacy checks to talk down shopkeepers and use that gold to buy discounted items. It depends on how and when they start. Do you let your one playing character take an extra twenty days at the start just for the sake of making a Ring of Invisibility, while the rest wait? If the answer is no because it's silly (and it is), then my point stands. If the answer is yes, for any reason (even allowing the character to start twenty days before every other character and letting them meet up when the crafting character has finished), then just let them start play as if they crafted it because that's essentially what you're doing, and my point stands.
reefwood wrote: Should I? I'm all for sharing how I would handle things when it comes to potentially fuzzy topics, but I try not to tell other people what they should do. When discussing RAW, or even RAI, that might be another matter, but not so much for this.
I don't have any problem with item creation feats. I'd just rather have my players use them (or any other abilities) in the game than before the game.
Yes, you should, otherwise your attempt to suggest that it's a balance issue doesn't stand on very much. I'm still not dictating what you will do, but pointing out your inconsistencies. I'm merely pointing out that if it truly were a balance concern then you'd be more concerned about balance.
As for your players using abilities in the game rather than before the game, what other feats besides the item creation feats and Leadership would matter in this? As I pointed out above, there are apparently inconsistencies in what you suggest should be done and why you say it should be done.
The points of this are two-fold.
1. The 'wealth per level' tables are just that. The value of stuff you have at that level. Whether you paid 12.5 or 25 gp for that 1st level scroll, it's still worth 25 gp at 10th level. 'wealth per level' is NOT a big pile of change for you to spend.
2. Yes, any feat can have to wait days or weeks depending on the adventure. If you have a week of down time at the start of the campaign, then that mage with his Scribe Scroll will see a ton more time then any Weapon Focus or Dodge or whatever.
If some GMs want to allow their players a discount for just taking a feat, fine. It favors the spellcasters a great deal more then they really need, but it's their call. Personally, I'd never let that fly. But then all my campaigns start at level 1 anyhow, so it's never been an issue.
Karui Kage wrote: The points of this are two-fold.
1. The 'wealth per level' tables are just that. The value of stuff you have at that level. Whether you paid 12.5 or 25 gp for that 1st level scroll, it's still worth 25 gp at 10th level. 'wealth per level' is NOT a big pile of change for you to spend.
2. Yes, any feat can have to wait days or weeks depending on the adventure. If you have a week of down time at the start of the campaign, then that mage with his Scribe Scroll will see a ton more time then any Weapon Focus or Dodge or whatever.
If some GMs want to allow their players a discount for just taking a feat, fine. It favors the spellcasters a great deal more then they really need, but it's their call. Personally, I'd never let that fly. But then all my campaigns start at level 1 anyhow, so it's never been an issue.
The WPL tables are a guideline and expectation, not a hard and fast rule. It explicitly states that the WPL values assume consumables are used, assumes that some non-useful items are sold to purchase more useful items, and even states that the values may vary if low-magic or high-magic settings are used (and gives suggestions in both circumstances).
It does not assume that players think up of an incredible heist that is as potentially profitable as it is stupid to attempt... and succeed. Sometimes characters do remarkable things, even killing NPCs who they were never meant to fight yet, and profit from it beyond what you'd expect normally.
It also does not assume that at least one player takes item creation feats and employs it in the course of a campaign.
That a player takes item creation feats should not stop you from placing treasure as you would normally.
It also should not stop you from ruling that since the WPL assumes these things but not item creation, you should allow it.
Otherwise, as I have said, your problem is not starting characters with item creation discounts, but that your problem is with the item creation system itself. Of course, any player taking item creation feats should not try to break the system and should not try to exploit this money advantage. On the other hand, players with ridiculous abilities to steal probably shouldn't steal from everyone and anyone just because they can make the rolls easily enough. That's breaking the game, and exploiting the numbers, and this is not why I brought up this topic.
My interest is in a system that can provide a balanced and fair method for allowing characters with item creation feats, and one for Wizards (or anyone using spellbooks), to put together a character at above level one. I'll also point out that Wizards aren't the only characters who can do item creation, and they aren't the only ones who can do it fairly well. They're just probably the ones who require the least investment for equivalent item creation ability.
I'd thank you to not state my problems for me. :) I love the item creation system. I encourage it's use in every campaign I run. I also make it clear that characters being made at high levels will *not* get a discount from crafting feats, though they are more then free to use them once the game has begun.
The biggest problem isn't with wizards using scribe scroll. The problem is that, if you allow that, it opens up things like craft wondrous item. When a 10th level character can have 124,000 GP worth of wondrous items while the fighter is stuck with his 62,000 GP of stuff, it gets a bit icky.
Karui Kage wrote: I'd thank you to not state my problems for me. :) I love the item creation system. I encourage it's use in every campaign I run. I also make it clear that characters being made at high levels will *not* get a discount from crafting feats, though they are more then free to use them once the game has begun.
The biggest problem isn't with wizards using scribe scroll. The problem is that, if you allow that, it opens up things like craft wondrous item. When a 10th level character can have 124,000 GP worth of wondrous items while the fighter is stuck with his 62,000 GP of stuff, it gets a bit icky.
Sure, but I'm not certain that a character would want (or should be allowed) to load up just on wondrous items simply because they can make those. What would you do if the character can craft every item? That's a lot of feat investment.
I recently started a character with four item creation feats, but because of not being able to use them, ALL of my items that I bought to begin play owning were items that I could not (and would not) craft. The rest was gold, and I just crafted now and then as we were playing. Yes, it was stupid. Yes, it was annoying. Yes, it made absolutely no sense. Yes, it was directly caused by not being able to employ those feats at character creation.
Had I been able to assume the few items I made were there at the start, no difference would have been made except for the situation being stupid and annoying.
Finally, it gave me an effective WPL of higher than normal if you assume the items are worth full price. The important thing is, though, that they aren't worth full price. I cannot sell them for full price, and I didn't buy them for full price. The extra cost was not in gold, but in feats and in time spent.
I don't think that item creation feats violate the WPL, and items made in this way should count towards your character's WPL at the price of crafting. However, I know that people can abuse this.
I don't know how many times I have to restate this before someone finally seems to read it, but my point is that a balanced system should be in place to account for item creation, and a balanced system should be in place to clarify how spellbooks should be built for higher level characters who use spellbooks.
Any bickering over the rest is not my intent. If you're still in doubt, read the thread-starting post again. Sorry if I contributed to derailing this thread, but I'd like to get it back on track.
Nigrescence wrote:
I don't know how many times I have to restate this before someone finally seems to read it, but my point is that a balanced system should be in place to account for item creation, and a balanced system should be in place to clarify how spellbooks should be built for higher level characters who use spellbooks.
That is actually the question people generally are trying to answer here. There are just severel people (not including myself) who have the opinion, that the most balanced way of doing it, is to disallow having made your own items at character creation.
I think it is very difficult to make a balanced system to deal with magic item creation at character creation. It could either be very complicated, and/or be open to abuse.
That is why my earlier answer was that it is dependent on the level of the character in question. The lower the level, the lesser the impact of allowing the character to get the discount on item prices.
At higher levels it might be problematic, but whether that is the case or not is fully dependant on the player.
Because of that I can't imagine a system that would suffice, compared to GM adjudication in each case.
Spell books: For inscribed spells, I can't see any arguments against following the rules for borrowing spell books and inscribing spells, and the pricing there of.
A possibility to prevent that a wizard buys each and every spell in the book, could be imposing a limit on spells that can be bought per level.
For example: The wizard is allowed to buy up to his int modifier per level in spells before starting play. The price follows the price for inscribing and borrowing a spell book. The wizard can only choose spells that are availiable to him, at each corresponding level.
HaraldKlak wrote: Nigrescence wrote:
I don't know how many times I have to restate this before someone finally seems to read it, but my point is that a balanced system should be in place to account for item creation, and a balanced system should be in place to clarify how spellbooks should be built for higher level characters who use spellbooks.
That is actually the question people generally are trying to answer here. There are just several people (not including myself) who have the opinion, that the most balanced way of doing it, is to disallow having made your own items at character creation.
I think it is very difficult to make a balanced system to deal with magic item creation at character creation. It could either be very complicated, and/or be open to abuse.
That is why my earlier answer was that it is dependent on the level of the character in question. The lower the level, the lesser the impact of allowing the character to get the discount on item prices.
At higher levels it might be problematic, but whether that is the case or not is fully dependent on the player.
Because of that I can't imagine a system that would suffice, compared to GM adjudication in each case.
Spell books: For inscribed spells, I can't see any arguments against following the rules for borrowing spell books and inscribing spells, and the pricing there of.
A possibility to prevent that a wizard buys each and every spell in the book, could be imposing a limit on spells that can be bought per level.
For example: The wizard is allowed to buy up to his int modifier per level in spells before starting play. The price follows the price for inscribing and borrowing a spell book. The wizard can only choose spells that are available to him, at each corresponding level. I think you've got a point that it would be difficult to make something across the board, but it's something that's always itched in my side when it comes to character/npc creation. I know that DM fiat may be the practical solution, but the problem there is that a DM might be against or for the particular character (or player playing that specific character), so I think there should be a solid system so that not only the DM and the wizard, but every other player will feel like things were done fairly.
And everyone will feel like you're abusing the system by not crafting at the start and then saying, "Oh, yeah, I'm going to be crafting for about twenty days before I run into you guys." Or, "Hey, can we wait about three weeks before we go adventuring?" It just seems ridiculous at all levels, and this is why I'm interested in seeing a balanced and fair system in place.
Your idea of allowing the wizard to borrow and inscribe at the cheaper cost equal to his Int modifier per level seems great. It sets a limit that makes sense (and correlates to the 1st level spells known rule for characters starting at level one), and if any wizard desperately wants to start with more spells than that, he should buy scrolls at character creation and pay the cost of inscription.
Of course, I would make one real change to that rule. He only gets to buy half of his int modifier of spells of the highest level that he can cast in this way.
My own idea for item creation is that no more than 50% of your total starting gold may be spent towards items you create (the only exception being if you have every item creation feat, save for Craft Construct which is an exception itself IMHO) at character creation, and no more than 25% of your total starting gold may be spent on crafting any one item.
Not sure if this point has been raised, but the game mastery guide defines by settlement size what spells are available, by level. As, mentioned, Core rules prices spells at cost +50%, for common spells.
Unless for your setting you want to designate cirtain core spells as rare, that means any wizard should be able to pick up a book of all 1st level spells out of the core rules for less than a thousand gp. If they have any respectable Spellcraft, the skill checks shouldn't be an issue.
Only trouble is for higher level spells. In addition to getting expensive, above a given level they're not publically available. If, for example, the biggest city in the regon the PC is from limits available spells to 3rd level, then it'd be reasonable that the only 4th level spells he'd have were ones he got himself (i.e. the free ones he gets per level).
For magic items, the point of magic crafting feats is to let you make magic at half price -- The tricky part is it's also assumed that you fund much of that magic making by selling magic items ... which sell for half price.
So, it shouldn't be like the character can take his gear value for his level and multiply by 2, then go shopping. Really, he can leverage that way only whatever percentage of his wealth he earned in coin. The rest is a wash.
So, what I'd do is make a judgement call how much of his wealth was based in money vs. found gear, give him double value for the money only, then let him shop.
The biggest advantage of item creation, in my opinion, should be the fact that you get to decide which item you want to create. This makes the party more powerful, because you can decide to create whatever best addresses the needs of the party. This is an advantage that comes up after character creation, not during or before. Rather than depending on the DM for equipment, you can decide to make your own. This is a powerful advantage in some adventures, though it won't fit well in all games.
So I do not allow item creation feats to improve an adventurer's WBL at character creation. Nor would I ever expect a DM to allow it this way.
A starting wizard should get all his free spells (naturally) and perhaps a few more at the 'practically giving this spell away' cost for copying from another mage's spell book. If the wizard wants to start with every single spell in the game, however, he'll have to pay top dollar for a large number of scrolls. I do not think it is wise to allow any wizard such access to the spells - the worst "quadratic wizard, linear warrior" problems invariable assume such access as a matter of course.
EDIT: Forgot to mention - if the wizard in question is maxxing out the spellcraft skill (as good wizards should, in my opinion), then spellcraft checks are handwaved for starting spells. If they don't have max ranks or very close in spellcraft, I'd make them roll, at least for their highest-level spells.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Why do so many people insist that players pay the scroll cost rather than the privilege cost?
Because it's a 'privilege' cost, not a 'right' cost.
:-)
Seriously, it's because I feel that cost is an exception more than a rule. IF you find a wizard who has the spell you want and IF he isn't interested in killing you and/or your friends and IF you can convince him that he should let you have some spells THEN you can buy the spell the cheap way. But you can ALWAYS buy scrolls - folks just sell those to complete strangers (probably after a two-day wait period and background check in some cities, but you know what I mean).
As a DM, I prefer to present wizard NPC's to the wizard PC. If the PC's manage to make friends with one of them in-game (I try to make this difficult) then they get cheap spells from him. If the PC's don't do this, they can always buy scrolls. Perhaps even a wizard college with a large number of spells available... if you can qualify for admittance to such a snooty group. In other words, the cheap cost is an in-game reward for a character who performs well. Some of my players can circumvent large amounts of plot and fun, given the right spells. If a player needs a few extra spells to make their character work, I'm pretty willing to bend on this. Most of the time, they don't.
As a player, I expect my wizard to start with the free spells, and perhaps a few more I picked up if my DM is generous. If I absolutely need to have some other spells, I'm willing to spend some WBL on them. I do not expect my DM to just give me the whole spell book practically for free. I'm a pretty good wizard player, and I can do funny things to a game when I have access to all the spells in the game. My DM's know this.
As a gamer, I think that wizards should NEED to decide between spells, especially when it comes to their highest level spells. I also think that arcane spells are actually worth the scroll cost. Just as a fighter can't carry every single weapon he will ever want (until he gets to be very high level, and not at creation), the wizard shouldn't have every spell he will ever want, certainly not at character creation. A paladin at character creation who got his sword from a dying warrior for the cost of an oath still has to pay for that sword in WBL. So it is with the wizard.
Besides which, paying the cheap cost feels like you just entered in a cheat code.
"every little thing"
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lyrax wrote: Because it's a 'privilege' cost, not a 'right' cost.
:-)
Seriously, it's because I feel that cost is an exception more than a rule. IF you find a wizard who has the spell you want and IF he isn't interested in killing you and/or your friends and IF you can convince him that he should let you have some spells THEN you can buy the spell the cheap way. But you can ALWAYS buy scrolls - folks just sell those to complete strangers (probably after a two-day wait period and background check in some cities, but you know what I mean).
I don't see a wizard being any more willing to sell his scrolls than he is to sell privilege. They are both giving away arcane secrets.
Lyrax wrote:
I do not expect my DM to just give me the whole spell book practically for free.
I've actually done the math. The cheapest I've been able to manage is 64,905gp for every wizard spell in the core rulebook (paying only privileged and having crafted two blessed books with which to contain them all).
That's NOT cheap for anyone.
In my opinion, only one is actually giving away arcane secrets. The other is charging a fair price. Your mileage may vary.
:-)
That view dismisses the rules for buying in core and the Game Mastery guide -- which you can totally do, people can houserule -- But by RAW the 'fair price' for transcribing spell to your spellbook is as it says in the core rules (a scroll is a different thing), and what spells are available are by level and type of settlement, as per the table in Game Mastery.
As for why all this resistance, insisting wizards buy scrolls and whatnot, I think it goes all the way back to 1st edition D&D, where getting a spell was made very difficult, and that set a precedent. Pathfinder is written to be a lot more liberal about it, though.
FWIW, I agree with the change. Sorcerers are designed to be the ones with limited spell selection, compensated for by more uses per adventuring day. Wizards are supposed to have access to a vast array of spells, but be limited in how many they can use, by having to find them and buy them like gear, by being able to prepare few per day, and otherwise have to pay for use by scribing scrolls.
Lyrax wrote: So I do not allow item creation feats to improve an adventurer's WBL at character creation. Nor would I ever expect a DM to allow it this way. Of course, the WBL assumes selling unneeded magical items to buy needed ones. If you can sell unneeded magical items to make your own, you DO essentially improve your WBL, which is the crux of my argument to begin with. Either the DM short-changes your party and specifically your wizard to "counter-act" the crafting advantage (in which case you may as well never craft in the first place), or the DM acts as normal and you effectively get a bonus to your WBL due to maintaining full value of things you would sell if you create new items instead of buying new items.
Asphesteros wrote: As for why all this resistance, insisting wizards buy scrolls and whatnot, I think it goes all the way back to 1st edition D&D, where getting a spell was made very difficult, and that set a precedent. Pathfinder is written to be a lot more liberal about it, though. Yes, even in 2nd AD&D getting a spell was supposed to be a treasure of its own. I'd also add that not only has 3.5 and PF loosened the hold on magic, but more notably we can even make magic items other than scrolls (or at least reliably make them).
Nigrescence wrote: Of course, the WBL assumes selling unneeded magical items to buy needed ones. If you can sell unneeded magical items to make your own, you DO essentially improve your WBL, which is the crux of my argument to begin with. Either the DM short-changes your party and specifically your wizard to "counter-act" the crafting advantage (in which case you may as well never craft in the first place), or the DM acts as normal and you effectively get a bonus to your WBL due to maintaining full value of things you would sell if you create new items instead of buying new items. Not at character creation. At character creation, you start with WBL value.
You can't make a profit from selling your stuff at half value and then making new stuff at half value. You break even. WBL assumes this.
If we assume you CAN exceed WBL by making new items and selling off unneeded items, who's to say you didn't do this for the last ten years, particularly if you're an elf? Why not start with infinite gold? Simply because the game would be broken in half by a PC starting out with those kinds of resources.
This is why WBL is there as a guideline. To tell you what the total value of your PC's gear should be (more or less) at any given level. If you ignore this, then your game may suffer as a result. You're not getting short-changed. You're not getting less equipment than anybody else.
A party may exceed WBL through play after obtaining their crafting feats; that's completely legitimate. That's one of the two big advantages of the feat. But allowing you to exceed WBL at character creation? That is stinky cheese, man. Stinky, French munchkin cheese. (Not that I have anything against the French, but their cheese is famous for being very... aromatic). You might as well say that you should start with more XP than everyone else because your character likes to kill monsters in your spare time and took the feats to be better at it than everyone else. Or that you ought to have higher stats, more spells, or any other greater mechanical advantage than another class because one of your abilities implies it. After all, rangers have wild empathy - why shouldn't you let them start with more animal friends than just one?
At character creation, WBL is the total value of everything your character has won, found, made, or stolen. Anything more than that means your DM is being quite generous.
Lyrax wrote: Nigrescence wrote: Of course, the WBL assumes selling unneeded magical items to buy needed ones. If you can sell unneeded magical items to make your own, you DO essentially improve your WBL, which is the crux of my argument to begin with. Either the DM short-changes your party and specifically your wizard to "counter-act" the crafting advantage (in which case you may as well never craft in the first place), or the DM acts as normal and you effectively get a bonus to your WBL due to maintaining full value of things you would sell if you create new items instead of buying new items. Not at character creation. At character creation, you start with WBL value.
You can't make a profit from selling your stuff at half value and then making new stuff at half value. You break even. WBL assumes this.
If we assume you CAN exceed WBL by making new items and selling off unneeded items, who's to say you didn't do this for the last ten years, particularly if you're an elf? Why not start with infinite gold? Simply because the game would be broken in half by a PC starting out with those kinds of resources.
This is why WBL is there as a guideline. To tell you what the total value of your PC's gear should be (more or less) at any given level. If you ignore this, then your game may suffer as a result. You're not getting short-changed. You're not getting less equipment than anybody else.
A party may exceed WBL through play after obtaining their crafting feats; that's completely legitimate. That's one of the two big advantages of the feat. But allowing you to exceed WBL at character creation? That is stinky cheese, man. Stinky, French munchkin cheese. (Not that I have anything against the French, but their cheese is famous for being very... aromatic). You might as well say that you should start with more XP than everyone else because your character likes to kill monsters in your spare time and took the feats to be better at it than everyone else. Or that you ought to have higher stats, more spells, or any... Super big +1.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mega ultra (as in bigger) -1
Lyrax wrote: You can't make a profit from selling your stuff at half value and then making new stuff at half value. You break even. WBL assumes this. Except, of course, that WBL does not assume this at all. It does not in any way assume an entirely optional possibility that is only available through feat and skill expenditure towards that goal. It only accounts for selling unneeded items and BUYING new ones. It does not assume, at all, crafting, otherwise all non-crafters would be completely gimped (or, to the other extreme, all crafters would be completely gimped).
Ok, let me lay out a scenario to explain this.
I find a Full Plate of +Whatever worth 20k gold. As a Wizard, this item is useless to me (and just assume that I stole it or found it or the rest of the party can't use it, so they give it to me because they're being fair with item value). The item doesn't matter, just that I can't use it and it's not pure gold. The WBL accounts for me selling this off for 10k gold and then buying stuff worth 10k gold. I, however, am a crafty little Wizard who has Forge Ring. Instead of buying stuff worth 10k gold, I invest the 10k gold I got into a Ring of Wizardry(I). Twenty days later, I have completed it, and instead of selling the plate and getting 10k worth of items I have gotten 10k worth of materials and made a 20k value item with only 10k. Note, however, that I can STILL only sell the ring for 10k gold.
This is only possible because I specifically invested in crafting to be able to do this. The WBL does NOT account for this. I expended feats, skills (though admittedly I would probably have high Spellcraft anyway - though this matters more for non-Wizard crafters), and time to make this item. Where I would normally have only 10k worth of value, I now have 20k worth of value which I obtained for only 10k worth of investment.
As I said, WBL does not account for crafting, and if you assume that I should be gimped further treasure just for the sake of screwing me and my feat/time/etc. investment then there is no point to ever take item creation feats (unless it's a strictly no-magic campaign, in which case you're screwed as a Wizard either way, and you probably will be pitted against less-powerful things to accommodate the lack of magical buffing).
I do not break even. I come out ahead. I found 20k value that was worthless to me. I re-created it into a different 20k value item that IS valuable to me. Instead of losing 10k value as WBL would assume (selling unneeded and buying needed), I preserved the value of the item. This is the benefit of an item creation feat.
Lyrax wrote: If we assume you CAN exceed WBL by making new items and selling off unneeded items, who's to say you didn't do this for the last ten years, particularly if you're an elf? Why not start with infinite gold? Simply because the game would be broken in half by a PC starting out with those kinds of resources. First of all, you won't have infinite gold. Even if you take your ridiculously poorly thought out situation, you still sell at half value unless you are explicitly a shopkeeper, which means you wouldn't really have the time to do the crafting yourself. Even then, if you do the crafting yourself, you take a lot of time to craft. You literally cannot get "infinite" gold, even if you're a venerable elf. Stop abusing hyperbole, because you're undermining your argument AND making you look stupid.
Lyrax wrote: This is why WBL is there as a guideline. To tell you what the total value of your PC's gear should be (more or less) at any given level. If you ignore this, then your game may suffer as a result. You're not getting short-changed. You're not getting less equipment than anybody else. Actually, I am. You still have no answer to my posed situation where I just declare to start the game with no items, spend however many days before I have to meet up with the rest of the party crafting, and then head out. If you would allow that, then you may as well allow me to start with it crafted already. Additionally, I could just start with nothing, then simply begin crafting right away. I don't even need to take advance days to do it. It's only ridiculous because you keep on insisting, for NO reason, that I simply can't do it. Well, guess what? I can.
So, in essence, you're wrong. My point isn't to say that I want to abuse things. My point is to say that I would like to see a balanced system to account for this at character creation. Either you are unable to read because your head is stuck up your bum so far, or you are unable to read simply because you don't want to listen to what anyone else has to say on the matter. You have absolutely no reason for declaring what you think to be so other than just demanding that it be so. I, however, have given multiple reasons at several points throughout this thread, and you have handily ignored most of them in lieu of just declaring what you think to be right. Answer the arguments.
Lyrax wrote: A party may exceed WBL through play after obtaining their crafting feats; that's completely legitimate. That's one of the two big advantages of the feat. But allowing you to exceed WBL at character creation? That is stinky cheese, man. Stinky, French munchkin cheese. (Not that I have anything against the French, but their cheese is famous for being very... aromatic). You might as well say that you should start with more XP than everyone else because your character likes to kill monsters in your spare time and took the feats to be better at it than everyone else. Or that you ought to have higher stats, more spells, or any... As I said, my point is not to abuse the system. I want to avoid cheese. Yet again, I can "dodge" WBL by just WAITING to craft until after creation, which is even worse than doing it before. What's even better is to use a balanced system to account for item creation, which was my whole point in the first place.
This is not something about flavor, where I can just claim to be a monster slayer to abuse XP, and this is not whatever arbitrary reason you think to just magically have more spells or higher stats. This is an explicit advantage of and reason for a particular feat that is entirely based around item creation, and making items at half market price is the explicit advantage.
While you spent time trying to make poor attempts at cheese jokes, perhaps you should have been instead READING what I have said, and thinking about actual answers to my questions.
Regardless, you can have your cheese jokes all you like, while the rest of us will be busy thinking, reading, and having a discussion. You, well, the kid's table is elsewhere. You can have all the cheese you want there.
I think I have to cuncur only in the result on that, if I read all that correctly.
1 - As in many other areas, the game lets you use feats to buy exceptions to general rules. In this case investing in item creation feats and skills is *meant* to let you be geared higher than level on the WBL. That is the utility and the point of investing in those feats as opposed to other feats that offer other advantages.
2 - Wealth by level is only a guideline for an end result, it doesn't presume how you got there. But DOES presulme all of that wealth is in useable gear or coin. It doesn't expect, for example, a 10 level wizard to have an unusable suit of armor as an element of his gear, but it does presume that whatever is found, bought, traded, or sold - and don't forget *consumed* (wands, scrolls, potions, etc.) - during the course of that wizard's career, the end result should be about 62kgp in usable gear at 10th level. This is a guideline, which investing in item creation is meant to modify, just like investing in power attack is meant to modify melee damage output, or metamagic feats are meant to modify spell effectivness, or anything else - take your pick.
3 - Item creation does not double WBL, however. Selling off at half to buy at full should be an exception in a well written campaign, not the rule, since GMs shouldn't be feeding their players a lot of useless gear. So, as has been pointed out, for the majority of character wealth it just swaps half value for half value. What it really multiplies is just the value of coin-loot (which vendor trash items also fall into). This should be a relativly small percentage of PC's income, with the majority being useful items a party would not want to liquidate.
-- Bottom Line: Buying the feats does mean a higher WBL and *should* translate into a higher WLB. It's the whole point of them. But for a starting character that should mean a modest advantage in gear appropriate to balance the *disadvantage* of forgoing taking more directly useful feats and skills.
1 - That's a really good point, and while I have been primarily meaning what you said, I wasn't stating it as well as you did.
2 - Yes, as I've said before the WBL is merely a guideline and not a hard and fast rule. It even says so on the relevant page. The chart is merely an expectation, and as I mentioned it notes that high/low fantasy games can have a fairly big impact on this expectation.
3 - True, it does not double it, but neither did I suggest that it would or should double WBL. In fact, the biggest point of mine regarding this is that there perhaps should be a balanced system to account for item creation at character creation, thus preventing people from just starting off with all crafted items and gaming the system. You're quite right to point out that a DM should generally provide meaningful rewards, but I don't mind random rewards in part because I'm used to it from 2nd AD&D, but also because it sometimes gets people to use items they normally wouldn't consider investing in.
I agree that it should only be a modest advantage, but that's a vague sentiment and doesn't directly translate into what someone should actually be able to get/do/have, which is the whole point of my asking.
At any rate, thank you all for your replies, though I welcome more if anyone has something to say.
Nigrescence wrote: "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells
wealth by level list, charging full price for scrolls and scribing costs for every spell added beyond what he gains from leveling is fair?
The wizard charges a fee, is a DM tool. A player shouldn't look that up, as much as a DM says "if you want that spell he will charge this to copy."
When creating the PC, players need to typically pay for the scroll and pay for the cost to copy the scroll into their book.
Again, a DM is free to come up with any method he chooses, but as a DM I don't think one should allow cheap copying like that rule allows on initial spells at character creation.
I look at it this way: If you're going to allow one character class a discount on stuff, then you'd damn well better allow other all the other classes comparable discounts as well.
Also, when calculating, don't forget the cost of scribing the spell into the spellbook.
Kthulhu wrote: I look at it this way: If you're going to allow one character class a discount on stuff, then you'd damn well better allow other all the other classes comparable discounts as well. Except, of course, that it is NOT a discount, strictly speaking. Wizards have multiple ways to add spells to their spellbooks. It just so happens that one method is less expensive. Scrolls are generally made as items to cast from, or if a Wizard will not let anyone else personally examine his book, a way to share spells. It just happens to be the case that a Wizard can either cast from a scroll or try to use a scroll to copy the spell to their spellbook. After all, this is why they get Scribe Scroll as a class feature. They can make scrolls to cast from instead of memorizing all of the spells they might ever need. It is precisely BECAUSE scrolls can be cast from that they are more expensive items than just the value of the spell itself. The value of the spell itself should NOT be confused with the value of a scroll of the spell. This is why copying from another Wizard's spellbook has its own price. That price is the value of the spell itself, and thus cheaper than a scroll.
Nigrescence wrote: Kthulhu wrote: I look at it this way: If you're going to allow one character class a discount on stuff, then you'd damn well better allow other all the other classes comparable discounts as well. Except, of course, that it is NOT a discount, strictly speaking. Wizards have multiple ways to add spells to their spellbooks. It just so happens that one method is less expensive. Scrolls are generally made as items to cast from, or if a Wizard will not let anyone else personally examine his book, a way to share spells. It just happens to be the case that a Wizard can either cast from a scroll or try to use a scroll to copy the spell to their spellbook. After all, this is why they get Scribe Scroll as a class feature. They can make scrolls to cast from instead of memorizing all of the spells they might ever need. It is precisely BECAUSE scrolls can be cast from that they are more expensive items than just the value of the spell itself. The value of the spell itself should NOT be confused with the value of a scroll of the spell. This is why copying from another Wizard's spellbook has its own price. That price is the value of the spell itself, and thus cheaper than a scroll. Ah, but if you start out a fighter, for example, at 14th level, does that mean that he should be allowed as many magical weapons and armor as he desires at a 1/2 price discount? Fighters have many ways that they can gain magical weapons/armor. They can take it from defeated enemies, they craft it themselves, etc.
The same logic can be applied to every class. If you're going to bend a rule/guideline, do it equally...don't just bend it for a single class.
The wizard in my campaign aligned himself greatly (backgroundwise) with the scholar schools in the neighbouring country. He knows this will have its consequences, but he looks forward to the roleplay-opportunity.
I made him decide how much he wanted the spells (%) and I rolled for it. He now has 97 pages occupied in his spellbook, and it has cost him about 3000 gp.
(Free + scribe cost + privilege cost)
Also, I made the spells he copied have an extra focus (school item), and he is forbidden to ever share them.
Kthulhu wrote: Ah, but if you start out a fighter, for example, at 14th level, does that mean that he should be allowed as many magical weapons and armor as he desires at a 1/2 price discount? Fighters have many ways that they can gain magical weapons/armor. They can take it from defeated enemies, they craft it themselves, etc.
The same logic can be applied to every class. If you're going to bend a rule/guideline, do it equally...don't just bend it for a single class.
You're being ridiculous. This is an explicit mechanic concerned with a specific class feature. If your fighter has item creation feats, skills, and the capability to make the items he wants, YES, he can make them. Otherwise, of course he can't. This is strictly so. It is ABSOLUTELY not possible for him to make them if he doesn't have that feat and skill investment. You have provided literally no excuse for giving a half price discount aside from creating the item (and your whim just to argue that he should get it half price is not an excuse - it is absurdity without reason). In such a case, it's not even a discount. Half price is literally what it costs to obtain the item through creating it. This isn't even a discount. This is exactly the cost.
A Wizard needs absolutely no special circumstance to scribe to his spellbook from another Wizard's spellbook or from a scroll. He can just do it. Flat. No argument about it. This is an explicit class feature. Just as the Fighter can wield practically any weapon (up to Martial), equip any shield, and don any armor, and use it proficiently without any special effort. This is also an explicit class feature.
I don't think you understand the point of contention, or have been paying attention to the thread. He is able to buy from other Wizards the privilege of copying a spell, or he is able to buy, from whatever source has it, a scroll containing a spell. Through both methods he is able to add the spell to his spellbook. Both of these are explicit methods of obtaining spells, and both of these are essentially treated as market items (face value purchase price).
The point of contention is which methods and in what amounts he is able to use, or should use, at character creation to fill his spellbook. The Wizard isn't doing anything special or trying to do anything sneaky to buy spells from one market item versus another market item. It is all precisely by the books. It's just that character creation itself is somewhat ambiguous.
No rules or guidelines are being bent, at all.
Pathfinder Faction Guide: Page 7 (Arcanamirium) Says:
Quote: 1 CPA: Transcribe a common spell (any spell listed in
the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, or any spell the GM
feels is common in the world) from the school’s library
into a wizard’s spellbook or alchemist’s formula book.
This benefit does not require a Spellcraft check or any
additional transcribing costs.
5 TPA, 1 CPA: Become familiar with an uncommon
or rare spell (at the GM’s discretion) from the school’s
library, allowing a bard, sorcerer, or similar spellcaster to
select it as a spell known at the next available opportunity
(this benefit allows such a caster to gain access to bard
or sorcerer spells from sources other than the Pathfinder
RPG Core Rulebook without having to do spell research or
find a copy of the spell while adventuring).
...
15 TPA, 2 CPA: Transcribe an uncommon or rare
spell (at the GM’s discretion) from the school’s library
into a wizard’s spellbook or alchemist’s formula book.
This benefit does not require a Spellcraft check or any
additional transcribing costs.
As you can see, the definitions of 'common' and 'uncommon and rare' spells are fairly well spelled out. EVERY character, PC or NPC, who can make a DC 15+(up to 9) spellcraft check is able to recite the components that go into the spell they were thinking of, and to recognize the school, spell level, and specific effects thereof. Uncommon spells (from sources other than the PFRPG Book) and "Rare" spells (researched by PCs, lost in dark tombs, or specially detailed in adventures, like the construct snatching enchantment spell from one of the Pathfinder modules) may be more difficult to recognize, and it is quite possible that many casters have never heard of them. Going off the rules offered by 'Thematic Spellcasting' from the old Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting isn't a bad place to start.
For every component you do not recognize or cannot perceive in a cast spell, increase the DC to recognize that spell by 5. It is very reasonable to likewise assume that a spell you haven't heard of before has a +5 deciphering penalty to the check, and while it does not tell you the name, it tells you the general effects and school of the spell.
The Fly spell is not intellectual property. No wizard is going to freak out about sharing that spell out of their book. If YOU don't share it, someone else will, and they'll get the 45gp for simply letting another wizard copy three pages out of their book for three hours.
Purplefixer wrote: "Pathfinder Faction Guide: Page 7 (Arcanamirium)" Well, I don't have the Pathfinder Faction Guide book, but I do see that it says the Core spells are common, but it also says that it's up to DM ruling on what's common.
Purplefixer wrote: The Fly spell is not intellectual property. No wizard is going to freak out about sharing that spell out of their book. If YOU don't share it, someone else will, and they'll get the 45gp for simply letting another wizard copy three pages out of their book for three hours. That's kind of how I feel about it. Unless they're paranoid about other Wizards in general, or suspicious of the Wizard asking, letting someone copy a spell is a good way to make a little money off of your spells, thus allowing you to get more spells. You can even trade spells with another Wizard.
Or they could charge you 375 for a scroll, and get more money.
If a person doesn't care about you, do you think they'll charge you more money, or less money? My experience is that they'll charge more money whenever they can.
I guess it depends on how competitive your spell market is.
Lyrax wrote: Or they could charge you 375 for a scroll, and get more money.
If a person doesn't care about you, do you think they'll charge you more money, or less money? My experience is that they'll charge more money whenever they can.
I guess it depends on how competitive your spell market is.
It takes time to make a scroll, AND they have to pay for the cost of making a scroll before they can sell it as a scroll. All in all, it's cheaper and less time-consuming to let someone copy from the book if that's all they want, especially if they want to make a scroll for themselves that day, or make other magic items that day (yes, making a scroll counts as a magic item, and even if you could make ten scrolls in four hours, by the rules you can only make one scroll each day), or if they're currently in the process of making a magic item (because if you make ANY other magic item while working on your current project, all progress and funds put into the interrupted project are lost).
Yeah, it's not always better to sell it as a scroll. Not by a long shot. Competition doesn't even enter into it.
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