| Shoga |
Hi, me and my DM are trying to find out information and opinions as to why the summoner is restricted to 1 base form? IMHO, I feel its restrictive and wouldn't change the balance of the class. My DM wants comments and/or possibly some definitive explaination on the why and if it would break the balance of the class.
Thanks
LazarX
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Hi, me and my DM are trying to find out information and opinions as to why the summoner is restricted to 1 base form? IMHO, I feel its restrictive and wouldn't change the balance of the class. My DM wants comments and/or possibly some definitive explaination on the why and if it would break the balance of the class.
Thanks
Quite frankly because it's a design constraint that's meant to reign in a bit of sanity and enforce some definition of the kind of summoner you are. Evolutions are built on the base form and presumably the base form represents some integral aspect of the summoner's psyche. The base form also defines the base saving throws, armor and attacks of the eidolon, in essence what kind of eidolon it is at it's "core"
Yes it's restrictive... but then again so are the rules that say wizards suck when wearing armor, fighter's can't cast wish, and that druids can't wear metal. Or the fact that your class doesn't come with an "IWIN" class feature. Restrictions are part of what defines order from chaos.
What you fail to demonstarate is that it's "overly" restrictive.
| thepuregamer |
well, it is a poor attempt to balance a class whose main power is in a pet. Compare this to a druid's animal companion and things get weird.
Druids are 9 lvl spellcasters and thus more of their power is in the spellcasting than a summoners. Yet a summoner's eidolon is in several ways more limited than an animal companion.
1. You can't change the base form, feats, or skills selected. As where a druid can spend a day a get an entirely new animal with different abilities and different feats selected.
2. A summoner shares item slots with his eidolon and his eidolon can't even wear armor. Such restrictions an animal companion doesn't face.
There are some other weird issues but those 2 seems to be the main ways they attempted to reign in an eidolon's power by giving them weird restrictions.
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LazarX
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well, it is a poor attempt to balance a class whose main power is in a pet. Compare this to a druid's animal companion and things get weird.
Druids are 9 lvl spellcasters and thus more of their power is in the spellcasting than a summoners. Yet a summoner's eidolon is in several ways more limited than an animal companion.
1. You can't change the base form, feats, or skills selected. As where a druid can spend a day a get an entirely new animal with different abilities and different feats selected.
2. A summoner shares item slots with his eidolon and his eidolon can't even wear armor. Such restrictions an animal companion doesn't face.There are some other weird issues but those 2 seems to be the main ways they attempted to reign in an eidolon's power by giving them weird restrictions.
What's "weird" how do you define it? Thing is Paizo is breaking ground with new classes that really are that much different than any of the predecessors. The Summoner is much more the "pet" class than the Druid. And there are things that you simply can't do with an Animal Companion that you can do with an Eidolon, such as share the bulk of your skills.
The other thing is that the Summoner's Eidolon while technically an outsider also seems to originate from deep within the Summoner himself. So the base form of the Eidolon may come from the Summoner's ID if you will.
| Shoga |
Shoga wrote:Hi, me and my DM are trying to find out information and opinions as to why the summoner is restricted to 1 base form? IMHO, I feel its restrictive and wouldn't change the balance of the class. My DM wants comments and/or possibly some definitive explaination on the why and if it would break the balance of the class.
Thanks
Quite frankly because it's a design constraint that's meant to reign in a bit of sanity and enforce some definition of the kind of summoner you are. Evolutions are built on the base form and presumably the base form represents some integral aspect of the summoner's psyche. The base form also defines the base saving throws, armor and attacks of the eidolon, in essence what kind of eidolon it is at it's "core"
Yes it's restrictive... but then again so are the rules that say wizards suck when wearing armor, fighter's can't cast wish, and that druids can't wear metal. Or the fact that your class doesn't come with an "IWIN" class feature. Restrictions are part of what defines order from chaos.
What you fail to demonstarate is that it's "overly" restrictive.
Not saying it is overly restrictive. I'm asking about how it effects balance. Granted, it does seem that the base form can be construed as coming from the Summoners psyche but the summoners desire on their eidolon form can change depending on circumstance. As it says in the summoner class page 55, right column, 2nd paragraph "The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires."
My desire could change from biped to quadruped form as I see fit. I don't see it changing balance to allow all forms to be available. Even the rules for the eidolon restrict the power of the eidolon without any additional clarifications.
1) you can only have 1 eidolon out at a time. And you can't have one and summon another. you must dismiss your eidolon before summoning another.
2) Skills, feats stay static no matter the form.
3) Evolutions could be divided between the forms as the summoner see's fit. Once set, can't be changed until new evolution points are gained..i.e... next level.
How this change in allowing all forms effect the balance of the class is what I am wanting to define. Opinions on this is also welcome.