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That still isn't clearly saying Weapon Finesse replaces the Strength requirement. Your normal attack roll is a +Dex roll that the CMB, with the Str requirement, is replacing. Weapon Finesse isn't a bonus to an attack roll, it's a replacement.
By that definition it's not 'clearly saying' a lot of things... Specifics trump generalities, remember? By your logic Weapon Finesse never works, 'cos the Attack Bonus section states that a melee attack is 'BAB + Strength Modifier + size modifier'...
Anyhow...
If we're into the vast white plains of Theorycraft land, then lets crank up the Munchkin-fu and see what we can shake loose...
Just looking at some AC numbers...
1st level...
Human Monk 15pt build
Stength 7 (all his attacks are Finesse-able, except a quarterstaff, he doesn't care about DPR, and he has no stuff to carry)
Dexterity 18 (helps him hit stuff, helps two of his Skills, helps him not be hit, helps his (already good) Reflex save)
Constitution 14 (helps him not die, helps his (already good) Fortitude save)
Intelligence 8 (he's human and he only needs 4 Skill points)
Wisdom 16 (helps him not be hit, helps class abilities, helps one of his Skills, helps his (already good) Will save)
Charisma 7 (he's a Theorycrafted gimp)
Human Fighter 15pt build
Stength 18 (helps him hit stuff, helps him hurt stuff, helps him carry all his gear)
Dexterity 14 (helps him hit stuff at range, helps him not be hit, helps his (poor) Reflex save)
Constitution 16 (helps him not die, helps his (already good) Fortitude save)
Intelligence 8 (he's human, but needs to Ride a horse to keep up with the Monk, and wants Intimidate so as not to be seen as a pansy, with his 2 Skill points)
Wisdom 7 (gimps his (already poor) Will save)
Charisma 7 (he's a Theorycrafted gimp)
In the naked Olympics the Monk has AC 17, the Fighter has AC 12.
In a world with no magic (but normal starting ca$h), the Monk has AC 17, the Fighter has scale mail and a heavy shield, for AC 19, or maybe scale mail and a tower shield for AC 21.
In a world with no magic items both can benefit from friendly spellcasters, but Mage Armour only helps the Monk, giving him AC 21 + other buffs, and the Fighter AC 21 + other buffs.
Both can take Dodge, but the Fighter can take Shield Focus as well, and bump his AC by an extra 1.
At 20th level...
Human Monk 15pt build
Stength 8 (all his attacks are Finesse-able, except a quarterstaff, he doesn't care about DPR, and he has no stuff to carry)
Dexterity 20 (helps him hit stuff, helps two of his Skills, helps him not be hit, helps his (already good) Reflex save)
Constitution 14 (helps him not die, helps his (already good) Fortitude save)
Intelligence 8 (he's human and he only needs 4 Skill points)
Wisdom 18 (helps him not be hit, helps class abilities, helps one of his Skills, helps his (already good) Will save)
Charisma 7 (he's a Theorycrafted gimp)
Human Fighter 15pt build
Stength 21 (helps him hit stuff, helps him hurt stuff, helps him carry all his gear)
Dexterity 14 (helps him hit stuff at range, helps him not be hit, helps his (poor) Reflex save)
Constitution 18 (helps him not die, helps his (already good) Fortitude save)
Intelligence 8 (he's human, but needs to Ride a horse to keep up with the Monk, and wants Intimidate so as not to be seen as a pansy, with his 2 Skill points)
Wisdom 7 (gimps his (already poor) Will save)
Charisma 7 (he's a Theorycrafted gimp)
In the naked Olympics the Monk has AC 24, the Fighter has AC 12.
In a world with no magic (but normal gear), the Monk has AC 24, the Fighter has mithral plate armour with an armoured kilt and a heavy shield, for AC 24, or a that armour plus a tower shield for AC 26.
In a world with no magic items both can benefit from friendly spellcasters, but Mage Armour only helps the Monk, giving him AC 28 + other buffs, and the Fighter AC 26 + other buffs. Both can also bump all of their Ability Scores by 5 points more (via excessive Wishing), granting the Monk another +4 AC (AC 32 + buffs), and the Fighter another +2 AC (AC 28 + buffs).
Both can take Dodge, but the Fighter can take Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus as well, and bump his AC by an extra 2 (to AC 30 + buffs).
In a world with unlimited magic items the Fighter can get +10 AC over the Monk from Armour and Shield bonuses (AC 40 + buffs). The Monk can get Bracers of Armour up to +5 (1 better than the Mage Armour spell) and a Ring of Force Shield giving a +2 (AC 35 + buffs). They both get the same benefit from most other items (defending weapons, Ring or Protection, Amulet of Natural Armour, Belt of Dexterity boostingness, etc...), but the Monk's Headband of Awesomeness boosts his AC another 3 (to AC 38 + buffs).
So...
In the naked Olypics the Monk wins.
In a world of mundane gear only (but including unlimited mithral lying about the pace) the Fighter wins (just), with a tower shield and appropriate Feats.
In a world of no magic items, but caster magic, the Monk wins (just).
In a world with unlimited magic stuff the Fighter wins (just).
It's only in a world with randomly generated magc stuff only, as descibed by the OP, that the Monk looses big time - 'cos he can use less stuff, he ends up with less relevant magic stuff, whilst the Fighter will be rocking the (commonly rolled on tables) magic armour and shields...
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but monk has three advantages that make him better then normal in an unpredictable-magic gear world.
1) It is the only class in the game that can hit incorporeal creatures and bypass DR/magic with no-items or spells. (not counting holy water)
2) It is the only class with all good saves, and ability scores that also generally benefit saves. Very important if you may never get a cloak of resistance.
3 Best touch AC of any class.
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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but monk has three advantages that make him better then normal in an unpredictable-magic gear world.
1) It is the only class in the game that can hit incorporeal creatures and bypass DR/magic with no-items or spells. (not counting holy water)
2) It is the only class with all good saves, and ability scores that also generally benefit saves. Very important if you may never get a cloak of resistance.
3 Best touch AC of any class.
I suspect that would mean the poor Monk ends up getting stiffed out of even more random magic stuff...
Randomly rolled weapons, armour, shields, wands, rods, staves... can't use 'em... Randomly rolled Cloak of Resistance? 'Hey,' says the Monk's player, 'my guy can actually use that!'; 'But you already have good saves,' say the other players, 'be a team player already...'.
The Monk ends up being the guy who gets the Bag of Tricks.
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@ ProfPotts:
Bracers of Armor go up to +8...
Belt of Dex boost will help a Monk more than a Fighter. If the fighter uses heavier armor than even mithral will only give him the ability to use +5 Dex. If he uses lighter armor than he starts to lose on AC bonus from the armor. Monk gets all dex bonus all the time (except for when flat footed.)
So the fighter AC vs Monk AC is much closer.
That still isn't clearly saying Weapon Finesse replaces the Strength requirement. Your normal attack roll is a +Dex roll that the CMB, with the Str requirement, is replacing. Weapon Finesse isn't a bonus to an attack roll, it's a replacement.By that definition it's not 'clearly saying' a lot of things... Specifics trump generalities, remember? By your logic Weapon Finesse never works, 'cos the Attack Bonus section states that a melee attack is 'BAB + Strength Modifier + size modifier'...
And Weapon Finesse specifically says it replaces that.
Nice try though.
Belt of Dex boost will help a Monk more than a Fighter. If the fighter uses heavier armor than even mithral will only give him the ability to use +5 Dex.
A level 15 standard Fighter with Mithral Full Plate can gets a +7 Dex allowance - 24 Dex. That's pretty high for a class where Dex is maybe a tertiary stat.
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And Weapon Finesse specifically says it replaces that.
Nice try though.
Yes... exactly the point...
Weapon Finesse: '... you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls...'
Combat Maneuvers: '... Combat maneuvers are attack rolls...'
(Emphasis mine, natch)
I can't think how they could have made it any clearer... without, maybe, adding a page or two into the Combat Maneuvers section listing, individually and at length, all the Feats, Class Abilities, Spells, etc., etc. which modified attack rolls as also modifying the Combat Maneuver version of an attack roll... which seems a little pointless, IMHO.
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A level 15 standard Fighter with Mithral Full Plate can gets a +7 Dex allowance - 24 Dex. That's pretty high for a class where Dex is maybe a tertiary stat.
Belt of Dex boost will help a Monk more than a Fighter. If the fighter uses heavier armor than even mithral will only give him the ability to use +5 Dex.
My apologies, I forget the Armor Training. Either way it means that he started with an 18 dex and has +6 dex boost from a belt....yeah talk about gimping your fighter PC..right, Str is primary, and only Str...so if you started with an 18 in Dex you started with a 16 Str and have a 10 Con at best (with a +2 dex race).
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And Weapon Finesse specifically says it replaces that.
Nice try though.Yes... exactly the point...
Weapon Finesse: '... you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls...'
Combat Maneuvers: '... Combat maneuvers are attack rolls...'
(Emphasis mine, natch)
I can't think how they could have made it any clearer... without, maybe, adding a page or two into the Combat Maneuvers section listing, individually and at length, all the Feats, Class Abilities, Spells, etc., etc. which modified attack rolls as also modifying the Combat Maneuver version of an attack roll... which seems a little pointless, IMHO.
That should work with things like Disarm with just the finessable weapons, the point of Agile Manuevers is for ALL. I think this is in the d20pfsrd.com faq BTW.
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That should work with things like Disarm with just the finessable weapons, the point of Agile Manuevers is for ALL. I think this is in the d20pfsrd.com faq BTW.
Wow, yes - Agile Manuevers is even better for the Monk than using his trip and disarm weapons... Thanks, that'd totally slipped my mind!
wow. just... how about no?..
LOL! Really? 'No'? That's hilarious...
A finesse combatant uses Dexterity in melee instead of Strength... no penalties to hit 'cos of low Strength, 'cos he's not using his Strength to hit...
Lack of damage isn't an issue if you're not trying to do damage...
And if you equate not inflicting damage in combat to 'standing around and doing nothing' then... well, I don't know... I guess there's just a lot more of the game to explore in your future! ;)
The comparison munchkin style characters I presented were meant to compare two Theorycraft 'two vital Ability Scores and one which can't be dumped' characters who are designed to do their jobs (not the other guy's job) to each other... It's obvious that if you build a Monk to try to out-DPR a Fighter then you're going to have a hard time... which is what the anti-Monk crowd seem to insist on doing. But you can build a Monk on the same munchkin principles and have just as viable a character as the munchkin Fighter... as long as you build the Monk to be a Monk, not a 'Fighter wannabe'.
None of which has any relevance to the actual thread, mind you... ;p
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My big issue with the builds is that you are still trying to build a monk that out damages the fighter. I do not agree with the Treantmonk guide in this. He suggests to prioritize Str for monks.
Stop doing that. The monk will not out damage the fighter unless you are gimping the fighter.
You hurt the monk build by maxing Str and taking a minimum in Dex and Wis. that is not playing to the monk strengths. Too many abilities/features are keyed off of Wis/Dex. Ki, Skills, Defenses, ability to hit with Weapon Finesse, Stun Fist, etc....
I build my monks with a minimum of Str, I will dump Cha and possibly Int (though Int to a lesser degree), Con is my third ability. Wis and Con are my top 2. No deviation.
Challenge: put the monk and the fighter against several attacks with save (Fortitude, Will, Reflexes) and see what happens.
This culd be true for people saying "lol but fighter outdamages barbarian", too. Most fighter will be dolls at the first will save :)
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Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but monk has three advantages that make him better then normal in an unpredictable-magic gear world.
1) It is the only class in the game that can hit incorporeal creatures and bypass DR/magic with no-items or spells. (not counting holy water)
2) It is the only class with all good saves, and ability scores that also generally benefit saves. Very important if you may never get a cloak of resistance.
3 Best touch AC of any class.I suspect that would mean the poor Monk ends up getting stiffed out of even more random magic stuff...
Randomly rolled weapons, armour, shields, wands, rods, staves... can't use 'em... Randomly rolled Cloak of Resistance? 'Hey,' says the Monk's player, 'my guy can actually use that!'; 'But you already have good saves,' say the other players, 'be a team player already...'.
The Monk ends up being the guy who gets the Bag of Tricks.
Or the monk says "We already gave you that armor and those weapons, therefore the cloak is mine. And the bracers of armor, rings of protection, headband of wisdom..."
Not to mention gold splits when selling items. When you don't need to spend your money on armor and weapons, you get to spend it elsewhere...
I dipped monk with my paladin for the flavor first and foremost, and found that the +2 to all saves on top of paladin cha was a very welcome addition. Currently at lv9, and despite being somewhat under-equipped (hurting my AC much more than my saves), my saves are F+16, R+13, W+14.
Monks are decent defense-wise, and if he is quick about it, he can run over and harass the enemy caster, dropping a stunning fist in his gut, targeting his low/mediocre fort save, and put him out of commission for a round (and anyone who knows how to play a caster knows that taking one out even for a single round is gold)
It can't outfight the fighter... or ranger, paladin, barbarian, rogue or even the oracle of battle. But it can recognize it's place in the pecking order of things, and utilize it's strengths when appropriate.
Tripping is rarely a real option for the monk. He needs Combat Expertise, and Int 13 to qualify for Greater Trip, even if he gets Improved Trip as a bonus feat. Bull Rush or Greater Grapple are both better options, as you can still dump Int alongside Cha and get your Str/Dex/Wis/Con up to the levels they need to be. So run up and do some crazy wire fu to punch that wizard, then push that rogue so he can't full attack with sneak attack. And when you get the chance, make like Kenshiro and flurry to take them down a peg, renewing the stun.
Not gonna replace a fighter, but might be fun if done right, and the GM is nice enough to give out the stuff you need to be viable.
Monks really do make an attractive dip for most classes. Especially Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and most of all Druid.
Man, a monk/druid is so deliciously tasty. 2 Levels in monk will end with you having 9th level caster, +15/+10/+5 base attack, wisdom to AC in animal form, +14/+9/+14 base saving throws, full skill points, a couple of feats (Improved Grapple is good for a Druid like likes animal forms with Grab and Constrict), Evasion (good in animal form), and what-not.
For a number of druids, especially those in a low-magic game, the Wisdom to AC alone can be worth a dip (you just increased your AC in animal, magical beast, or elemental form by +2-10 relatively easily); especially if you're a druid that's not going to deal with saving throw spells.
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First. Thanks for the new name (aceite caballo) i will have to use instead of Oilhorse. I like it.
alright, sr. aceitecaballo, i'm looking at what you can do with ki points, and as far as i can tell you wouldn't use it anytime except in combat or as a direct result of combat, until possibly you get abundant step at level 12. until then, it pretty much is used to give you a boost in combat situations. by dumping str, you have pretty much given up the ability to directly damage anything remotely level appropriate. so what exactly is a monk built your way doing during a combat, especially in a game with no magic items which this thread is asking about?
Ok lets get some stuff clear. i don't "dump" Str. It get a minimum amount of attention. I can trade my attack stat to Dex, which is more important to a monk's features than Str.
What does Str have that Dex doesn't? Damage...Climb. Anything else? What does Dex do? Defenses, Stealth, Initiative, Save, Acrobatics. So by trading Str to attack for Dex to attack you are reducing the whole MAD issue while still keeping yourself viable.
To be clear. Str 10-13 to start...generally more to teh 10 than to the 13. i would start with 13 only to get PA.
Ki out of combat: Increase of move...Increase Jump potential...
Combat related but still out of combat: abundant step...wholeness of body...
Combat related: Dodge bonus...bonus attack during a flurry...
Now tell me. What can the fighter do with his class features out of combat? Not much, but that is ok he is the king of the ring. And that i have no problem with that. It is trying to lay ALL of the viablility of the monk on damage only that is just flat out wrong. He is not a primary damage dealer. That is the fighter.
Let's go back again to what I have said: What can the fighter do with his class features out of combat? I wanna flip this around.Instead of comparing the monk to the strength of the fighter (damage potential) lets compare the fighter to things the monk can do (and is strong at in many cases).
How is the fighter at scouting (answer: poor)? Healing (none)? Mobility (poor)? Applying status buffs(poor)? Avoiding status buffs (fail)?
stunning fist requires 3 things to work.
1. you succesfully hit the opponent ....ok...that is actually not much if at all worse that most characters attacking...which once again is why you prioritize Dex over Str
2. you actually deal damage to the opponent ...just need 1 point to go through to work...ok...not seeing it as that big of a deal...even if you dump Str by 2 and just take teh -1 penalty you always do a minimum of 1 damage before DR....
3. the opponent fails it's save ...and here is a reason to keep wis high (along with AC bonus and Perception and Ki Pool)...increase teh save DC...and it is usable many times over the course of a full attack action...got 3 attacks..try stunn 3 times...not against every enemy but you pick your spots...
you use up a stunning fist attempt whenever you decide to attack, so if any of those 3 things don't work out, you've just wasted one of your 1 per level attempts. just browsing through the bestiary, looking at the number of enemies with good fort saves and the average ACs, i conservatively estimate it's going to require about 4 stunning fist attempts for every successful stun on average. what this means is, since you've dumped str and we're talking about a low magic game, you essentially spend three rounds doing nothing (except minimal hp damage) to incapacitate an opponent for one round. at higher levels you have the option to do longer lasting effects, but generally it takes you just as many attempts, if not more due to the excellent fort saves many high level monsters have.
Oooo wasted a stun attempt...use it or lose it baby. They are no good if you are not using them. EVen if the numbers you use are correct. You get that Stun in and look at you Rogue's eyes light up as his flat footed detector goes off. Everyone just light's up the guy cause he is now even easier to hit.
Why try and stun the high fort beast when the more frail mage is available. It is not as simple as you can only succeed 25% of the time. You succeed more otften becasue you used them optimally. That is like telling the Mage that using mind affecting spells is a poor choice becasue so many of the monsters vary between good will saves to immunity to them.Remember that he is not the primary damage dealer. That is the fighter. He will nickel and dime opponenets and other s will finish them off. This is a team game.
you say prioritizing str hurts the monk, but i honestly can not see what a monk built like you suggest can actually do in a fight. he can run away really well, and do an ok job of not getting hit, but he's not actually doing anything in return to the enemy. keep in mind once again, we're talking about a game where you can't guarantee getting useful magic items.
so i'm genuinely curious, combat breaks out in such a game, what does your monk actually do?
he does what he always does with out thinking he is going to do large amounts of damage.
You max his str and his AC suffers so he cannot stay in a fight for very long. Ignore Str and you improve every other aspect of the monk. He gets his less takes less damage and though his loses some damage potential hie is able to do more damage over the long haul becasue he can take more attacks against enemies with out hav eing to bail. He is also helping hsi other teams mates out by providing flanks and status effects on enemies.Cannot guarantee items hurts fighter as much. He is dumping feats into certain weapons and once he gets WF and WS on his weapon, even with re-training, he is stuck with a potentially inferior weapon since he is not getting a magical one and is stuck using a magical weapon in which he has not focused in.
What does my monk do. He helps his team. He is not an OMAC.
No actual fighter ever will have that abysmal a strength.Yes, they will. None of YOURS maybe, but 14 Str fighters have and do exist.
The iconic Valeros starts with a 14 Str. :o
==Aelryinth
Prof, that's not a bad comparison, but you're giving the monk a spell buff you're not handing off to the fighter. If the Monk can get a mage armor or greater mage armor, the fighter can certainly get a greater magic vestment,,,x2...for +10 AC. And the monk doesn't get ANY of that.
==Aelryinth
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Yea, because nothings changed in the 9 years since that thread was made right ? With even just the supplemental material produced by wotc monks have become bananas when built right (and yes, there are ALOT of ways to build monks right, while also alot of ways to build them wrong).And the monk argument begins anew.
A primer for those who haven't heard how bad monks are.
Some of those points no longer apply in Pathfinder. But the point still stands, that monks need gear as much or more than the fighter.
Edit: Random thought from reading the stat blocks above.
Why do monks get their unarmed damage with gauntlets of strength but do not with ordinary gauntlets? :P
Did you even read my post? Also, supplements are not certain to be available.
No actual fighter ever will have that abysmal a strength.Yes, they will. None of YOURS maybe, but 14 Str fighters have and do exist.The iconic Valeros starts with a 14 Str. :o
==Aelryinth
He was also built as a boob, so let's move on.
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Prof, that's not a bad comparison, but you're giving the monk a spell buff you're not handing off to the fighter. If the Monk can get a mage armor or greater mage armor, the fighter can certainly get a greater magic vestment,,,x2...for +10 AC. And the monk doesn't get ANY of that.
==Aelryinth
GMV wont stack with magic armor enchantments. So if I am reading your post right, and you expect magical armor +5 and a caster to drop a maxed out GMV on the fighter's armor then you are mistaken.
But also the monk's shirt is considered armor with an AC bonus of 0, and thus acceptable for a GMV itself.
Who is Valeros?He was also built as a boob, so let's move on.No actual fighter ever will have that abysmal a strength.Yes, they will. None of YOURS maybe, but 14 Str fighters have and do exist.The iconic Valeros starts with a 14 Str. :o
==Aelryinth
The Pathfinder iconic Fighter who dual wields a longsword and short-sword (wow, he really is a bad Fighter, isn't he?). If you search around for Pathfinder art, he's the guy that usually looks a bit chewed on in combat, but you gotta have someone for the cleric to waste spells on, and if you don't have a monk, Valeros is your man.
Prof, that's not a bad comparison, but you're giving the monk a spell buff you're not handing off to the fighter. If the Monk can get a mage armor or greater mage armor, the fighter can certainly get a greater magic vestment,,,x2...for +10 AC. And the monk doesn't get ANY of that.
==Aelryinth
GMV wont stack with magic armor enchantments. So if I am reading your post right, and you expect magical armor +5 and a caster to drop a maxed out GMV on the fighter's armor then you are mistaken.
But also the monk's shirt is considered armor with an AC bonus of 0, and thus acceptable for a GMV itself.
He's not talking about a magic armor world, he's talking no-magic, but spells allowed.
His Shirt won't stack with Mage Armor if you use GMV on it (and he's letting the monk get a Mage Armor). Best he can net would be +1, and Greater Mage Armor at +6 would surpass that.
However, GMV on non-magical armor raises the FIghter's AC TREMENDOUSLY...as it should. The Monk gets his unlimited Dex and wis to AC, sure enough, but GMV means the Fighter would own him.
==Aelryinth
The Pathfinder iconic Fighter who dual wields a longsword and short-sword (wow, he really is a bad Fighter, isn't he?). If you search around for Pathfinder art, he's the guy that usually looks a bit chewed on in combat, but you gotta have someone for the cleric to waste spells on, and if you don't have a monk, Valeros is your man.Who is Valeros?He was also built as a boob, so let's move on.No actual fighter ever will have that abysmal a strength.Yes, they will. None of YOURS maybe, but 14 Str fighters have and do exist.The iconic Valeros starts with a 14 Str. :o
==Aelryinth
They present builds of him in the Serpent AP which make me cringe from both a design and a gear choice standpoint. He violates all the rules of pricing out gear for better effects...gets an 8 Wis to make his lousy will save even worse.
As Cartigan said, he was designed as a boob. Regdar from old Allies and Enemies was put together better.And given the WoTC Regdar hate, I'm guessing it got ported over to Valeros, given how lousy he really is. Regdar's biggest flaw was taking Bastard Sword spec.
===Aelryinth
Who is Valeros?He was also built as a boob, so let's move on.No actual fighter ever will have that abysmal a strength.Yes, they will. None of YOURS maybe, but 14 Str fighters have and do exist.The iconic Valeros starts with a 14 Str. :o
==Aelryinth
I seem to recall Jacobs admitting at some point Valeros is meant to be the whipping boy and was purposefully built below par.
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stunning fist requires 3 things to work.
1. you succesfully hit the opponent
2. you actually deal damage to the opponent
3. the opponent fails it's save
1. Yes, like any attack. And since you can still do damage and take your other attacks, there is no penalty for throwing a stunning fist as part of a regular attack.
2. Which will be almost everything, since by the time significant DR comes into play your hands are magic or you are doing enough damage to do at least 1 hit point in a single attack.3. Yes. The check is 10 + 1/2 Character level + Wisdom. For comparison, spells are 10 + spell level + modifier, with you getting access to the next spell level every third. So the stunning fist save will be on level or higher than the highest level spell of a caster, other than the modifier.
You get 1 per day, per level, so by 4th you'll be using them in every combat, because why not. They don't cost anything. They don't reduce damage or provoke an AoO. It's just a feature you can throw on when you feel like it.
The extra options you get at higher levels are nice (fatigued, sickened, staggered, blind, deafen, even killed with quivering palm) but let's remember what stunned does in it's own right.
"A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
Attackers receive a +4 bonus on attack rolls to perform combat maneuvers against a stunned opponent."
So all weapons drop and you stand there vulnerable as a puppy.
stunning fist requires 3 things to work.
1. you succesfully hit the opponent
2. you actually deal damage to the opponent
3. the opponent fails it's save
you use up a stunning fist attempt whenever you decide to attack, so if any of those 3 things don't work out, you've just wasted one of your 1 per level attempts. just browsing through the bestiary, looking at the number of enemies with good fort saves and the average ACs, i conservatively estimate it's going to require about 4 stunning fist attempts for every successful stun on average. what this means is, since you've dumped str and we're talking about a low magic game, you essentially spend three rounds doing nothing (except minimal hp damage) to incapacitate an...
That sounds like a lot of spells too...
My point with commenting on spells is that they are a limited resource that fails if you either don't hit or the enemy makes its save. The same argument is used to say that Stunning Fist is bad. That is flawed logic.
Most spells are one or the other. Stunning Fist is both. Also, save DC plays into that in that most spell-casters require fewer stats than any Stunning Fist users.
That really doesn't matter though. If those are negatives for something then they should be negatives for other things too. The criteria is rather broad and pointless.
Don't get me wrong, I know spells are more powerful and versatile than Stunning Fist. I just think it's bad logic being used to prove it.
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well, a 10 would be a dump in my book, since that is a +0 and absolutely no help to the character. as for defenses, stealth, initiative, save, and acrobatics, those are benefited equally by any class improving dex, and there are classes that would benefit more. boosting dex doesn't actually do anything for the monk class specifically since as far as i can tell none of their actual class features are keyed off of it. benefits everyone.
In my book, unless you are taking away points it is not a dump. "Dump" does not equal "Not Boosted". You mean equally benefited like boosting Str equally benefits characters?
Fact: Monk is a MAD class.Fact: Str has less attributed to it than Dex. including less skills, no boost to saves or defense.
So why boost Str when as a class you can lower teh MAD issue, still remain viable and increase a stat that is much, much more in tune to what your class needs.
It is not that Dex does something specific for monk, but that monk benefits more from it that the fighter.
i've never claimed that all of the viability of the monk is damage, it's just that what good is your dodge bonus and extra attack if you can't actually damage anything? i mean seriously, browse through the bestiary and you'll see a lot of things with very good fort saves.
what if there's no mage? what if there's just tough critters, or an evil priest? what do you do in those circumstances? in my experience, there's lots of encounters where that's true. at least by bumping str, you have an option of something to do pretty much every encounter.
Your two paragraphs are at odds with each other. Damage is not what you are basing the viability of the monk off of, but since nothing else of the monk seesm to work he better beable to do damage.
And as I look through it I notice that many creatures that are common (Orcs, Kobolds, Gnolls, Ogres, Trolls, Minotaur, Ettin, Drider...ok well Drider is not as common...but meh, w/e), they are going to succumb to the Stun at about a 50% rate...except for the troll who just is not gonna play that way.And what about when there is no toughies. There are bards and witches and rogues and ...well lets look at teh math...
Stun: 10+1/2HD+Wisbonus...10+x+4(start wis)...15 Fort DC to start...
Fighter: 16 Con+2base fort save...+5 fort save
A 50% success rate...and it will hover around that same sucess rate...figure the ability mods equal out...and the rate that the save gets harder and the base save rate are close to equal...so the success rate stays about 50%...and this is a class that has Con as one of it Primary stats and it has Fort as its good save. Take the classes that are not Fort good save and do not gear up Con and teh rate gets much higher.
actually, i'd say the fighter is average at scouting, if you build him that way, and can do it in full armor. mobility is average thanks to armor training, ie can still use acrobatics in full armor. and at high levels that fighter actually gets some debuffs thanks to the critical line of feats. avoiding effects is obviously where the monk has a distinct advantage, but in a mundane gear only game the fighter is going to have better AC once he gets some money to buy masterwork armor, which will probably offset the monk's self only healing.
Average? No. Sorry. Unless you build him that way, then you are increasing your Dex and lowering your Str or Con, thus lowering your ability to do what you are supposed to do...stay in a fight and kick the enemy's hinnie.
And even then he is average at best. Armor check penalites and a lower Dex and a skill that is not a class skill. At it's best you can negate all ACP...as long as it is mithril and you are inthe teens in fighter level...a long time to wait to be "average". So no, fighters are not scouts. Especially when you are not able to guarantee gettign mithrilMobility is meh, at best average. 3rd level to get to move normal speed in medium armor. 7th for heavy. Don't forget the whole "may not get mithril" issue about reducing the catagory of your armor.
Acrobatics: Again ACP hinders your ability as does your lower Dex and the fact it is not a class skill. Then add the fact that if your speed is reduced from load carried or amor warn then you cannot use the skill to "Tumble".
Debuffs: He gets them at higher level...the monk starts with one and adds more to it as he levels.
and as for class features that help him out of combat, he gets feats. since you're totally ditching damage, why can't i build a fighter that also ignores it in favor of other things? a well placed skill focus goes a long way to evening up any differences in skill. and as far as i can tell, those 2 extra skill points and the movement bonus are the monks only real advantage out of combat, at least until 17 level.
But none of that is stuff the fighter can do via features. Everyone gets feats. The monk gets feats. by 6th level the monk can move over water with a feat (Spider Step). The monk can Skill focus. And with his 2 extra skill points he is now trained in more skills that he can just flat out do better....well except for climb...just cause of his lower Str score, guss I'll put my Skill Focus in there to even it out .
Now if you wanna build a fighter that ignores his damage potential dso that he can compete withthe monk in these things, by all means. But I would think you are crazy. The fighter is all about Str and damage. it just is not true with the monk.
yes, it's not that much worse than anyone else, but the problem is without magic items you're only about 50% to hit vs the target ac at each level with your best attack.
Which, again, is not much different from every other character. they need magic weapons and stat boosts also. So if every one is sucking why is the monk getting singled out for it?
? i'm confused here. if you actually have a str penalty, it is actually possible to do zero damage even against something without DR. unless there's somewhere in the players guide that i missed that refutes this.
If a penalty reduces the amount of damage from a hit to less than 1 it still deal 1 point of non lethal damage. It is still damage. Still able to Stun.
well, i doubt you'd try stun that third attack. you only have 1/lvl/day attempts, and that third attack is only going to be at about 25% to hit. and then you have to remember that the save dc scales so slowly that even a wizard with a 10 con is going to pretty much have at least a 20% chance to successfully save. you're burning through a lot of rounds and a lot of uses of your stunning fist to get off one successful stun, and the rounds you don't get it off are basically wasted since you didn't do any damage
Yeah maybe, but sometimes ya gotta do waht ya gotta do.
Since I went the\rough the math and how well Stun can work I need not go over it again. Though the 10 con mage is in for a really bad time. @ 1st he will have about a 20% and it gets worse for him from there.yes, but see, the mage normally has a backup plan if he encounters stuff that can't be mind affected. the mage has options he keeps open. i'm trying really hard, but i'm just not seeing what your back up plan is for what i would think is a fairly common occurence.
and if i ever did see a mage build that only used mind affecting spells i would definitely call the person out on it, as there are a bunch of problems with putting all your eggs in one basket.
Does he...apparently blasting is not an option for the mage....and he has only so many spell slots.
A fairly common occurance is the 50%ish average to stunning something...All eggs in one basket? Since stun works more than you are wishing, if we come across that damn troll then you act the good mate and help out how ever you can...is that a flank, maybe, dealing what damage you can...hinder, restrain. This is all about assessing the situation and using youir options.--Playing a monk right now in a RotRL game. There are these creatues with DR\slash. So my unarmed strikes were almost inneffectual. the fight was inthe rafters of an abandoned clock tower. i did the best thing I could and grappled one and maneuvered it off the edge of a rafter beam sending it plummiting to its death 100ish feet below. i could not damage, so could not stun yet I was still contributing casue I was able to use different tactics based onthe situation.
heh. even with boosting ac, in a game with no magic items, the monk is still getting pretty much autohit by mid level by anything melee capable. not that anything is going to try and hit him until everyone else is dead since he's only doing about 5.5 damage a hit at level 11.
if all you're doing is providing flanking bonuses, might as well play a rogue and take fleet for all your feats. more skills, plenty of cool rogue talents, and you can actually benefit from flanking as well.
if that is the case then everyone if gettign autohit.
Rogue will have a 20 AC...Mithril chain Shirt +6 dexMonk AC 20...+3 dex, +5wis + 2 ACbonus
Fighter AC 23...Full Plate, shield, +2 dex
Damage: Getting 5 attacks @ d10 (5.5) per....The fighter gets 3...no doubt there is a gap, I can easily count that teh s/b fighter w/o PA is a +9 on each hit, figure bastard sword for equal damage basis he is 14.5 per hit. Giddy up. Now let's go back and see teh rogue, whom you say I should be instead. The rogue is getting 2 attacks and is using at best a d6 weapon. Figure a +2 str, so averaged out the rogue is doing a paltry 10ish damage...this is obviously w/o sneak...cannot guarantee the sneak.
But then again. this comes back to your statement that you are not basing the viability of the monk off of damge. It just always comes back to it.
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Most spells are one or the other. Stunning Fist is both. Also, save DC plays into that in that most spell-casters require fewer stats than any Stunning Fist users.
Yes, and the trade off is most spells can't be incorporated with your regular full attack. Stunning fist can.
The best part of stunning fist good is the fact that it doesn't cost you anything to use it, other than one of your daily uses.
As to the above point, I agree Dex based monks aren't the way to go. While the boost to AC is ok, strength should be right below wisdom so you can actually hit things and do some damage.
Stun: 10+1/2HD+Wisbonus...10+x+4(start wis)...15 Fort DC to start...
Fighter: 16 Con+2base fort save...+5 fort save
A 50% success rate...and it will hover around that same sucess rate...figure the ability mods equal out...and the rate that the save gets harder and the base save rate are close to equal...so the success rate stays about 50%...and this is a class that has Con as one of it Primary stats and it has Fort as its good save. Take the classes that are not Fort good save and do not gear up Con and teh rate gets much higher.
Your math is off slightly. The Fighter has a 55% success rate because he saves on a 10. I just felt like pointing that out. On a side note, stunned is a pretty bad debuff, but it's not game-ending always. A locked gauntlet is cheap, so that prevents you from dropping your weapon; and if you've got decent armor, then you're AC is going to be surprisingly good even while stunned.
Your two paragraphs are at odds with each other. Damage is not what you are basing the viability of the monk off of, but since nothing else of the monk seesm to work he better beable to do damage.
His two paragraphs aren't at odds with each other. They make perfect sense. He's saying that even if you're not dealing warrior level damage, you should at least be able to deal some meaningful damage, because in the situations where stunning fist is not viable then you are useless.
And as I look through it I notice that many creatures that are common (Orcs, Kobolds, Gnolls, Ogres, Trolls, Minotaur, Ettin, Drider...ok well Drider is not as common...but meh, w/e), they are going to succumb to the Stun at about a 50% rate...except for the troll who just is not gonna play that way.
This argument is actually a really bad one Oilhorse. You actually make angryscrub's point look better with most of these.
A Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Bard, Animal Companions, and monks that don't dump damage can outright kill most of these in melee in 1-2 rounds. If you're talking about standard orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and gnolls, then you'll find most have between 6-12 hit points. For those paying attention at home, that means a 1st level warrior-type can down any of the on 1 hit - possibly with their minimum damage. Whereas the monk has to hit and hope they fail their fortitude save, so you have 2 chances to screw up.
Now if we get into various versions of advanced creatures, then your monk stats getting worried. You see, if we take that standard orc and drop a level of Fighter or Barbarian on him, his saves go up by +2 at a minimum, and he gets +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and -2 to his ability scores, which means (likely) his Fortitude went up by another +2. For a CR 1 orc, you end up with a +4 higher Fortitude save.
If the Advanced template is involved, all his saves go up by +2. So if you're fighting a CR 2 advanced orc warrior1 / fighter 1, he probably has around a +9 fortitude save. A 4th level monk would have a DC 16 Fortitude save, meaning that he succeeds on a 7; without Great Fortitude (then it would be on a 5, 80% to succeed).
Trolls have a +11 to their fortitude save. A 5th level monk with a DC 16 (10 + 1/2 level + 4 wisdom) has a DC 16 stunning fist. The trolls succeed on a 5, or an 80% chance to succeed.
Ettins have a 65% chance to succeed against Stunning fist, but may outright murder you while getting close to them. The DC to tumble into their space is 23, and they have reach and a lot of nasty attacks. So if you do fail to stun them, the ettin will likely take you apart due to lower HP/AC; though he may ignore you as a mere pest and go attack someone that's hurting him, like the archer, the melee, the skirmisher, or the caster. Also, an ettin with 2 levels of warrior is +1 CR, but his Fortitude save is at least +3 higher, giving him an 80% chance to save vs a 7th level Monk.
Undead are pretty much immune to you outright. You cannot stun them, and you cannot hurt them effectively. A warrior class can kill a skeleton or zombie in a single strike at 1st level. A cleric can do so as well, and a cleric is much nicer to have around (unlike the monk, the cleric can fight, tank, buff, and heal the party). Against an un-armored CR 1/3 skeleton you might be able to down it in one shot, but forget about downing a CR 1/4 zombie, or a CR 1/2 zombie so easily.
Also...
Skeletons, Skeletal Champions, Zombies, various forms of odd skeletons or zombies such as bloody skeletons or fast zombies, morgues, shadows, allips, wraiths, ghouls, ghosts, mummies, spectres, vampires, wights, vampire spawn, wight spawn, liches.
And any kind of construct...
animated objects, clay golems, flesh golems, homunculi, ice golems, iron cobras, iron golems, stone golems, wood golems, or retrievers.
Or oozes...
black pudding, gelatinous cube, gray ooze, ochre jelly, shoggoth.
Or plants...
assassin vine, basidirond, giant flytrap, shambling mound, treant, vegepygmy, violet fungus, yellow musk creeper
Also, you have basically become a one trick pony, and not even a great trick at that. You are pretty much incapable of participating in combat in any way other than spamming Stunning Fist, and if you are spamming Stunning Fist then you will run out of Stunning Fist attempts very quickly. Faster than a wizard should run out of spells even.
At 1st level, if you have 5 stunning fists, and you use one stunning fist every round you attack (not counting flurries, just 1/round), then you'll be out on round 5; which is around 1-2 encounters at best. As levels rise, you get more stunning fists, but enemies get stronger, and you have to throw more attacks to make sure that you're putting the pressure on; because if that Ettin doesn't get stunned right freakin' now he's going to take you apart by the seams.
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In my book, unless you are taking away points it is not a dump. "Dump" does not equal "Not Boosted". You mean equally benefited like boosting Str equally benefits characters?
Fact: Monk is a MAD class.
Fact: Str has less attributed to it than Dex. including less skills, no boost to saves or defense.
So why boost Str when as a class you can lower teh MAD issue, still remain viable and increase a stat that is much, much more in tune to what your class needs.
It is not that Dex does something specific for monk, but that monk benefits more from it that the fighter.
It is and it isn't. Dex isn't that mission critical
1st level monk with 18 wisdom has a +4 to AC, or the same as a chain shirt. Throw on Dodge (which you can take as the 1st level monk bonus feat) and you have a 15 AC before you add in any dex bonus. A 12 in Dex will take you to a respectable 16 for a first level character, which will gain an inherent bonus every 4 levels.
When you consider that the monk can wear bracers of armor later, AC isn't really an issue for the monk who focuses on Wisdom as primary and strength as secondary.
Dex is an advantage stat for monks, since if they boost it they can take full advantage of it since they have no armor penalties and get evasion early. But with the bonus to jump checks and the high saves, it isn't a "Need" as much as a "Want".
Wisdom you need for your AC and stunning fist. Strength is your damage and attack bonus.
In my book, unless you are taking away points it is not a dump. "Dump" does not equal "Not Boosted". You mean equally benefited like boosting Str equally benefits characters?
Fact: Monk is a MAD class.
Fact: Str has less attributed to it than Dex. including less skills, no boost to saves or defense.
So why boost Str when as a class you can lower teh MAD issue, still remain viable and increase a stat that is much, much more in tune to what your class needs.
It is not that Dex does something specific for monk, but that monk benefits more from it that the fighter.
It is and it isn't. Dex isn't that mission critical
1st level monk with 18 wisdom has a +4 to AC, or the same as a chain shirt. Throw on Dodge (which you can take as the 1st level monk bonus feat) and you have a 15 AC before you add in any dex bonus. A 12 in Dex will take you to a respectable 16 for a first level character, which will gain an inherent bonus every 4 levels.
When you consider that the monk can wear bracers of armor later, AC isn't really an issue for the monk who focuses on Wisdom as primary and strength as secondary.
Dex is an advantage stat for monks, since if they boost it they can take full advantage of it since they have no armor penalties and get evasion early. But with the bonus to jump checks and the high saves, it isn't a "Need" as much as a "Want".
Wisdom you need for your AC and stunning fist. Strength is your damage and attack bonus.
The problem is whether you pump Str or Dex, your damage will still be ass. It might be less ass if you pump Str but still generally bad.
I still don't know what roll a Monk is filling that can't be done better by any other class.
If you are inconceivably stuck with no arms or armor at all, a Monk MIGHT be a good non-caster choice (casters school the Monk in no arms or armor). If you are wanting to play a game of chicken with the enemy at any rate. Otherwise, go with something that can deal damage reliably. Get a Ranger or Rogue or Fighter and pick up a club.
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If you are inconceivably stuck with no arms or armor at all, a Monk MIGHT be a good non-caster choice (casters school the Monk in no arms or armor). If you are wanting to play a game of chicken with the enemy at any rate. Otherwise, go with something that can deal damage reliably. Get a Ranger or Rogue or Fighter and pick up a club.
Depnds on level. Monks can have magic weapons, the other martial classes can't.
As to casters, Low fort saves and low cmb are a problem when you can't get cloaks. Again depending on level, it is not that clear cut. Monks are very effective mage slayers.
You don't get buffs automatically. You have to cast them.
As to casters, Low fort saves and low cmb are a problem when you can't get cloaks. Again depending on level, it is not that clear cut. Monks are very effective mage slayers.You don't get buffs automatically. You have to cast them.
Exactly. You are a caster. You have access to the stuff magic items are made of. Who cares what your CMB is? It was never going to be good anyway. As for Fort saves, most of those have to hit you and you have spells (depending on caster) like Shield, Mage Armor, Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image, Cat's Grace, Barkskin, Stoneskin, a myriad spells that get you off the ground, polymorphs, et al.
Monks can't slay what they can't reach or hit.
Depnds on level. Monks can have magic weapons, the other martial classes can't.
If your DM is throwing you up against normal CR opponents while not equipping you with CR appropriate items, he is a dick and no one is going to win, especially not the MAD monk.
Fact: Monk is a MAD class.
Fact: Str has less attributed to it than Dex. including less skills, no boost to saves or defense.
So why boost Str when as a class you can lower teh MAD issue, still remain viable and increase a stat that is much, much more in tune to what your class needs.
It is not that Dex does something specific for monk, but that monk benefits more from it that the fighter.
Because STR gives you damage and saves you a feat.
I've seen monks built just about every which way in play, and I'm now convinced that STR is the prime stat for the monk at least as much as it is for the barbarian, regardless of what the fluff says. It's just staggeringly more effective, assuming a remotely competent rest of the party.
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Fact: Monk is a MAD class.
Fact: Str has less attributed to it than Dex. including less skills, no boost to saves or defense.
So why boost Str when as a class you can lower teh MAD issue, still remain viable and increase a stat that is much, much more in tune to what your class needs.
It is not that Dex does something specific for monk, but that monk benefits more from it that the fighter.
Because STR gives you damage and saves you a feat.
I've seen monks built just about every which way in play, and I'm now convinced that STR is the prime stat for the monk at least as much as it is for the barbarian, regardless of what the fluff says. It's just staggeringly more effective, assuming a remotely competent rest of the party.
Over wisdom?
Depnds on level. Monks can have magic weapons, the other martial classes can't.
Yes, and no. It's true monks treat their strikes as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, but that's pretty much where it ends. You cannot even damage incorporeal creatures with them.
Likewise, I would take a Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, or Paladin with a stick (club or quarterstaff). Wielding a quarterstaff or club two handed, and we have 1d6+6 damage. 1d6+9 if we power attack. At 4th level, we get 1d6+12 damage due to Power Attack. If it's a fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization it's 1d6+14 damage. If it's a TWF Ranger, it's 1d6+12/1d6+9. With Double Slice, it's 1d6+12/1d6+12 (or at least 1d6+12/1d6+10).
I ran through this about three or four pages back, but the problem is the monk can totally pierce DR/Magic. No problem. The problem is, unless you focus on strength, the damage they do is very low. At 4th level, you deal 4.5 average damage on a hit with an unarmed strike. The Ranger is hitting for an average of 15.5 or 31 while using a 0 gp stick. Now even if you're fighting a creature with DR 10/Magic, the Ranger is dealing more damage per hit than the monk is. And if there's no DR involved, the ranger deals about x3 as much damage as the monk.
Likewise, a warrior's singular strikes are more potent. They're dealing around 13 damage minimum per strike, and the monk is dealing 8 damage maximum per strike. Meaning that if the monk isn't flurrying, he cannot come close to the damage at all. If the monk is flurrying, they probably can still do more damage more often.
It gets more extreme as the levels rise, because the warrior types end up with more BAB to dump into power attack. So at 20th level, the monk can hit for 2d10 (average 11 damage) per hit, while the same ranger is swinging for 1d6+15+18 per hit. The Fighter on the other hand is swinging for 1d6+15+18+5+4 per hit (due to weapon training/specialization).
So yeah, even without magic weapons...
Over wisdom?
Yes. God yes. Wisdom is a trap. They fake you out with the monk class fluff making you think it's more important than it really is.
You want it high for a lot of reasons, I'll grant you that -- but when push comes to shove, you want Wisdom, but you really need Strength. (Assuming melee-focused monk.)