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GothBard called me to let me know that she and Shiro are at the dealership now. I'm really looking forward to hearing how it goes. Shiro seems like a friendly, cheerful, easygoing guy but he's a ruthless negotiator the likes of which I've never seen. You honestly feel bad telling him, "No," even when the deal is disadvantageous for you.
On the other hand, "supply chain issues" is the mantra of every retail business these days, so they might not have to sell to him if they don't consider the deal favorable enough.
I'm still betting on them driving up here in a new car. I have faith in his ruthlessness and the dealership's willingness to accept cold, hard, cash as long as they're still making a profit.
EDIT: Yeah, I have my own negotiating tactic that makes them want me out of the dealership as quickly as possible...
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An offer you cannot refuse.
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GothBard called me to let me know that she and Shiro are at the dealership now. I'm really looking forward to hearing how it goes. Shiro seems like a friendly, cheerful, easygoing guy but he's a ruthless negotiator the likes of which I've never seen. You honestly feel bad telling him, "No," even when the deal is disadvantageous for you.
On the other hand, "supply chain issues" is the mantra of every retail business these days, so they might not have to sell to him if they don't consider the deal favorable enough.
I'm still betting on them driving up here in a new car. I have faith in his ruthlessness and the dealership's willingness to accept cold, hard, cash as long as they're still making a profit.
EDIT: Yeah, I have my own negotiating tactic that makes them want me out of the dealership as quickly as possible...
I'd love to see a series of comedy videos on YouTube of GothBard and Shiro at BevMo, GothBard and Shiro go car shopping, GothBard and Shiro go quantity surveying...
This last was an obscure reference, I admit. I just want to see if anyone knows it.
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I went on a 2.5 hour guided birding walk this morning. It was 26 degrees here.
A few takeaways:
Birders are not at all what I expected. (I expected them to be lean, austere, solemn, humorless. They were precisely the opposite in all respects.)
Contrary to expectations, I was not attacked, mauled, and left bleeding on the gravel path by glittery-eyed, cold-blooded tiny winged demons. Also, it was surprisingly fun.
No, they don't actually all look and sound alike once you've paid attention for five minutes. Perhaps this was something that everyone knew.
When you're the only newbie in a group of experienced birders, they go out of their way to point things out and tell you stories. Like the time one guy saw an actual Spocking condor and no one believed him and the next day it was in the news that it had escaped from a local zoo.
I need to dig my father's old Nikons out of storage and buy some film, because it's impossible to get decent wildlife photographs with my crappy phone camera. Also you look far cooler with an old-school Nikon than you do with a crappy android.
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I'd love to see a series of comedy videos on YouTube of GothBard and Shiro at BevMo, GothBard and Shiro go car shopping, GothBard and Shiro go quantity surveying...
This last was an obscure reference, I admit. I just want to see if anyone knows it.
My absolute favorite is, "GothBard and Shiro at random ethnically-owned convenience store," because if they have no idea what's in a snack package, they have to buy it.
"What does this say?""I don't know!"
"What's this a picture of?"
"I don't know!"
"OK! We have to buy it!"
"OK!"
We have had some truly, truly tragic snack foods.
And a handful of decent ones...
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I'd love to see a series of comedy videos on YouTube of GothBard and Shiro at BevMo, GothBard and Shiro go car shopping, GothBard and Shiro go quantity surveying...
This last was an obscure reference, I admit. I just want to see if anyone knows it.
My absolute favorite is, "GothBard and Shiro at random ethnically-owned convenience store," because if they have no idea what's in a snack package, they have to buy it.
"What does this say?"
"I don't know!"
"What's this a picture of?"
"I don't know!"
"OK! We have to buy it!"
"OK!"We have had some truly, truly tragic snack foods.
And a handful of decent ones...
This makes me want to shout "DAISO!" the same way the Dabo girls shout "DABO!" on DS9.
If the male version of a Mermaid is a Merman, does that mean that the female version of a German is a Germaid?
Please tell me they also milk cows.
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This makes me want to shout "DAISO!" the same way the Dabo girls shout "DABO!" on DS9.I'd love to see a series of comedy videos on YouTube of GothBard and Shiro at BevMo, GothBard and Shiro go car shopping, GothBard and Shiro go quantity surveying...
This last was an obscure reference, I admit. I just want to see if anyone knows it.
My absolute favorite is, "GothBard and Shiro at random ethnically-owned convenience store," because if they have no idea what's in a snack package, they have to buy it.
"What does this say?"
"I don't know!"
"What's this a picture of?"
"I don't know!"
"OK! We have to buy it!"
"OK!"We have had some truly, truly tragic snack foods.
And a handful of decent ones...
I met the original Dabo girl several cons ago.
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I'd love to see a series of comedy videos on YouTube of GothBard and Shiro at BevMo, GothBard and Shiro go car shopping, GothBard and Shiro go quantity surveying...
This last was an obscure reference, I admit. I just want to see if anyone knows it.
My absolute favorite is, "GothBard and Shiro at random ethnically-owned convenience store," because if they have no idea what's in a snack package, they have to buy it.
"What does this say?"
"I don't know!"
"What's this a picture of?"
"I don't know!"
"OK! We have to buy it!"
"OK!"We have had some truly, truly tragic snack foods.
And a handful of decent ones...
That's the way to do it.
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So yeah, I'm a mask convert. Hate wearing it outside, but during hay fever season it's a godsend.
Yep. I've been saying since mid-2020 that I'm going to keep wearing mine well after the pandemic ends, because less allergies and less common illnesses have been amazing.
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Well, this ought to be interesting... both Shiro and GothBard were impressed with the cars (they took two for test drives), but then for some as-yet-undisclosed-to-me regulatory reason they wouldn't let Shiro buy the car.
I'm betting it's that his house only has a 100-amp drop and they require a 200-amp drop to support plug-ins, but all I know is that something amazingly stupid happened and Shiro wants to tirade at me about it in person in a while.
Should be entertaining!
EDIT: It's my guess because the exact same thing happened when I tried to get solar: "You're not allowed to install solar unless you have a 200-amp drop."
"But I'll never use anywhere near that much power!"
"Rules are rules!"
And for me it was just, "OK, throw it on and add it to my bill," and it cost very little because they were already putting in a new electric panel, but for Shiro it would be going out of his way to contract work on his house just to be able to buy a car.
But I'm still in Hypothetical Land here, they haven't gotten here yet.
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Unfortunately, the real story is yet another indictment of the entire car sales industry, and yet another reason to never again set foot on a car lot.
Shiro found the car he wanted, the sales guy said the price would be MSRP + $1300, Shiro agreed, signed all the paperwork, and the sales guy did the usual, "Oh, now I have to take it through finance."
So Shiro and GothBard went off to lunch.
When they got back, the paperwork was ready, but Shiro immediately noticed that the total was off. Sure enough, buried in the middle of the list of other items was a $3000 dealer markup he hadn't agreed to.
They out-and-out tried to steal $3000 from him. In most states that's grand larceny. At a car dealership it's business as usual.
He objected so they offered to cut it down to $2000. He walked.
The dealership won't get a penny from him, but they'll get an angry letter.
And the saddest part is exactly what Shiro said: They'll sell the car anyway, because either someone won't notice the extra charge, or won't care. But he wasn't about to budge on signing on an agreed-upon price and then having the dealership try to sneak a dealer markup in after the fact.
Unfortunately, the real story is yet another indictment of the entire car sales industry, and yet another reason to never again set foot on a car lot.
Shiro found the car he wanted, the sales guy said the price would be MSRP + $1300, Shiro agreed, signed all the paperwork, and the sales guy did the usual, "Oh, now I have to take it through finance."
So Shiro and GothBard went off to lunch.
When they got back, the paperwork was ready, but Shiro immediately noticed that the total was off. Sure enough, buried in the middle of the list of other items was a $3000 dealer markup he hadn't agreed to.
They out-and-out tried to steal $3000 from him. In most states that's grand larceny. At a car dealership it's business as usual.
He objected so they offered to cut it down to $2000. He walked.
The dealership won't get a penny from him, but they'll get an angry letter.
And the saddest part is exactly what Shiro said: They'll sell the car anyway, because either someone won't notice the extra charge, or won't care. But he wasn't about to budge on signing on an agreed-upon price and then having the dealership try to sneak a dealer markup in after the fact.
what was this 3k for exactly?
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Unfortunately, the real story is yet another indictment of the entire car sales industry, and yet another reason to never again set foot on a car lot.
Shiro found the car he wanted, the sales guy said the price would be MSRP + $1300, Shiro agreed, signed all the paperwork, and the sales guy did the usual, "Oh, now I have to take it through finance."
So Shiro and GothBard went off to lunch.
When they got back, the paperwork was ready, but Shiro immediately noticed that the total was off. Sure enough, buried in the middle of the list of other items was a $3000 dealer markup he hadn't agreed to.
They out-and-out tried to steal $3000 from him. In most states that's grand larceny. At a car dealership it's business as usual.
He objected so they offered to cut it down to $2000. He walked.
The dealership won't get a penny from him, but they'll get an angry letter.
And the saddest part is exactly what Shiro said: They'll sell the car anyway, because either someone won't notice the extra charge, or won't care. But he wasn't about to budge on signing on an agreed-upon price and then having the dealership try to sneak a dealer markup in after the fact.
Sounds like we should go car shopping together! I did the exact same thing when we went car shopping and they tried that on me.
I'm the exact way when shopping!
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what was this 3k for exactly?Unfortunately, the real story is yet another indictment of the entire car sales industry, and yet another reason to never again set foot on a car lot.
Shiro found the car he wanted, the sales guy said the price would be MSRP + $1300, Shiro agreed, signed all the paperwork, and the sales guy did the usual, "Oh, now I have to take it through finance."
So Shiro and GothBard went off to lunch.
When they got back, the paperwork was ready, but Shiro immediately noticed that the total was off. Sure enough, buried in the middle of the list of other items was a $3000 dealer markup he hadn't agreed to.
They out-and-out tried to steal $3000 from him. In most states that's grand larceny. At a car dealership it's business as usual.
He objected so they offered to cut it down to $2000. He walked.
The dealership won't get a penny from him, but they'll get an angry letter.
And the saddest part is exactly what Shiro said: They'll sell the car anyway, because either someone won't notice the extra charge, or won't care. But he wasn't about to budge on signing on an agreed-upon price and then having the dealership try to sneak a dealer markup in after the fact.
It was "dealer markup". Exactly as gran said, if a particular model is more popular, dealerships start adding random amounts to the total price to increase their profits. When we bought the Prius in 2006 they told us to expect a significant dealer markup, so I was happy to leave the place having paid "just" MSRP, which already involves a significant markup to give them "bargaining room".
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Oooh! A Freehold Analogy:
Imagine that McDonald's releases the McRib nationally for $3.69. Your local McDonald's advertises the McRib for $3.69. You get in, order your McRib, they put it in front of you, and they say, "That'll be $4.09."
"Wait! Where'd the extra $0.40 come from?"
"That's 'franchise mark-up'. The McRib is really popular right now, so we're adding $0.40 to the price to reflect its popularity."
"But when I ordered you said it would be $3.69."
"Yes, but I'd forgotten to mention the franchise mark-up."
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There are some dealers who advertise "no dealer markup" in the hope of trading off for higher sales. But you have to look for them.
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There are some dealers who advertise "no dealer markup" in the hope of trading off for higher sales. But you have to look for them.
Er... just because they say it doesn't make it true.
This guy explicitly told Shiro, "We don't do a dealer markup, so this is exactly the price you'll pay."
Once Shiro had signed everything, they added $3000 hidden in the list of line items. The only reason Shiro noticed was that the total had gone up several thousand dollars, so he flipped back to the line items and found it.
Want to find the scummiest liars on the planet? Don't look to lawyers. Look to car salespeople.
EDIT: And if you really want to get angry, watch the episode of Adam Ruins Everything on car dealerships. A great question: In what other industry are you required to go through a middle man who can charge you arbitrary prices?
Oh, yeah. Health care. And that's so much better...
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Captain Yesterday fun fact!
My dad's family includes 3 generations of used car dealership owners. In Chicago.
You're not wrong.
That said, I love my extended family on my dad's side.
A bit over two weeks ago I bought new pants (at shop with work clothing because they are more sturdy without ridiculous mark up for such crappy things as color, or design), new long johns, and some other stuff.
Today I have discovered that I already made a (small) hole in one of the side pockets. Apparently, the small, cheap flashlight that I bought at the same time (and put into the pocket in question the next day, when I put on the pants for the first time) has sharp edges around the lens, which penetrated the fabric. It's not a big hole but apparently, I have tendency to rip pants soon after I bought them. After this discovery I put the flashlight upside down, hoping that I won't cut my hand one day if I will be forced to suddenly pull the flashlight from the pocket.
Addendum: when I started to play with the aforementioned flashlight I found some spare change (1/20th of the pants value, or more than half the flashlight's value) under my desk that I had to drop in the past.
Yeah, it is kind of dark under the desk and it big and too heavy to move around.
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Fantasy Monster: Censor Inevitable.
It will probably cut some of my writings sooner or later.
Sort of related to the last post.
I hate when the forum fails to show my post and I don't know if I need to post again, or not.
And then the posts are gone when I reload...
And show again.
And vanish.
It seems that I missed 100-200 meters to doing 10 kilometers today.
I am officially old. That petty walk was tiresome, though more at the start than in later parts.
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Fantasy Monster: Censor Inevitable.
It will probably cut some of my writings sooner or later.
Sort of related to the last post.
YEP! YEP! YEP!
It seems that I missed 100-200 meters to doing 10 kilometers today.
I am officially old. That petty walk was tiresome, though more at the start than in later parts.
I sympathize. I've been walking the puppy in lieu of daily trips to the park to save on gas, and today was probably the longest walk I've done in a while, just shy of 1.5 hours. My knees are killing me.
She's good to go for another after a drink and a lie down.
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It seems that I missed 100-200 meters to doing 10 kilometers today.
I am officially old. That petty walk was tiresome, though more at the start than in later parts.
I sympathize. I've been walking the puppy in lieu of daily trips to the park to save on gas, and today was probably the longest walk I've done in a while, just shy of 1.5 hours. My knees are killing me.
She's good to go for another after a drink and a lie down.
I heard that puppies (and full scale dogs) are a great way to turn complete couch potato into a somehow mobile potato.
Keep investing those xp-hours into Fitness while you still can.
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I have certainly been getting a lot more exercise in recently. Usually somewhere between 30-60 minutes a day.
Good morning, John!
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Oooh! A Freehold Analogy:
Imagine that McDonald's releases the McRib nationally for $3.69. Your local McDonald's advertises the McRib for $3.69. You get in, order your McRib, they put it in front of you, and they say, "That'll be $4.09."
"Wait! Where'd the extra $0.40 come from?"
"That's 'franchise mark-up'. The McRib is really popular right now, so we're adding $0.40 to the price to reflect its popularity."
"But when I ordered you said it would be $3.69."
"Yes, but I'd forgotten to mention the franchise mark-up."
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Yesterday's session was pretty hilarious in that it fundamentally exposed our GM's flaws, but he refused to see them:
Ropes are Hard: The GM has "pet" PCs he likes to coddle, so our casters had Boots of Flying, a Fly scroll, and a Broom of Flying. Those of us not in the "cool kids club" had to try to climb down a 100' rope. Rolls of 8, 1, and 3 had all three of us plummet. So yeah, every PC who tried to use the rope suffered a 100' fall.
Die rolling is good: After the session, he asked what we thought. I pointed out that his insistence on excessive die rolling was leading to tons of frustrating failures: With 6 PCs making 4 CON checks each during our winter travel, there was a significant likelihood of someone getting a 1 (which they did), leading to an entire session of trying to save her from frostbite. The fact that we were all native to the region and had gone out of our way to buy cold weather gear didn't matter in the least to him. "I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."
So... thinking ahead and being prepared is bad, and random die rolling is good?
An Interesting Take on Humanity's History: He justified his take on this by saying that in pre-industrial times, nobody traveled during the winter because they were likely to die.
Er... what!?!?!!?
Apparently trappers didn't exist. The Donner Party wasn't an exception, but rather a general rule if you ever stepped outside during the winter. The Native American migration across the ice happened during the summer. Eskimos (Inuit?) don't actually exist.
Humanity's ability to adapt to cold weather over the millennia has been nothing short of astonishing: People who planned ahead and equipped themselves for what they knew they were getting into managed feats we might consider impossible today (Scott vs. Amundsen, anyone?).
But nope. The GM thinks that even if we're native to an area and we've bought all the appropriate gear, we're still too stupid to survive the cold.
So Shiro put it well: "So, by your rules, we should just hole up and stop adventuring for 3 months every year. I guess that's what we'll do."
We'll see what next Sunday brings.
EDIT: And notice that I'm waiting until an edit to point out the really frustrating part: In 5e you don't build skills. You get a handful of skills based your background and they go up one point every 4-5 levels, or you can burn a feat (available once per 4 levels) to get a feat. So skills are hard. My cleric does not have Knowledge: Religion as a skill because she didn't take that specific background. Yet every time I have to do anything I have to fail my Knowledge: Religion roll. I desecrate temples to my god. Fail to say appropriate words over the dead. I swear I'm surprised he doesn't make me make a Knowledge: Religion roll every time I prepare my spells so that half the time I can't cast spells.
He sets DCs so that PCs fail roughly half the time, then has us roll every time we try to take an action. It's a stupid, stupid combination. We let him know yesterday. He didn't want to listen. We'll give him a week for his wife to try to talk him around.
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Yesterday's session was pretty hilarious in that it fundamentally exposed our GM's flaws, but he refused to see them:
Ropes are Hard: The GM has "pet" PCs he likes to coddle, so our casters had Boots of Flying, a Fly scroll, and a Broom of Flying. Those of us not in the "cool kids club" had to try to climb down a 100' rope. Rolls of 8, 1, and 3 had all three of us plummet. So yeah, every PC who tried to use the rope suffered a 100' fall.
Die rolling is good: After the session, he asked what we thought. I pointed out that his insistence on excessive die rolling was leading to tons of frustrating failures: With 6 PCs making 4 CON checks each during our winter travel, there was a significant likelihood of someone getting a 1 (which they did), leading to an entire session of trying to save her from frostbite. The fact that we were all native to the region and had gone out of our way to buy cold weather gear didn't matter in the least to him. "I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."
So... thinking ahead and being prepared is bad, and random die rolling is good?
An Interesting Take on Humanity's History: He justified his take on this by saying that in pre-industrial times, nobody traveled during the winter because they were likely to die.
Er... what!?!?!!?
Apparently trappers didn't exist. The Donner Party wasn't an exception, but rather a general rule if you ever stepped outside during the winter. The Native American migration across the ice happened during the summer. Eskimos (Inuit?) don't actually exist.
Humanity's ability to adapt to cold weather over the millennia has been nothing short of astonishing: People who planned ahead and equipped themselves for what they knew they were getting into managed feats we might consider impossible today (Scott vs. Amundsen, anyone?).
But nope. The GM thinks that even if we're native to an area and we've bought all the appropriate gear, we're still too stupid to...
I have heard this argument before with respect to 5e and skills, as well as die rolls. Not that similar arguments were not made from 3.x and onward. Not sure when we will get to the happy medium with respect to rolling dice for skills or what that will look like.
Also this is a fantasy gaming world, not the Smithsonian with dice and virgin beverages.
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I have heard this argument before with respect to 5e and skills, as well as die rolls. Not that similar arguments were not made from 3.x and onward. Not sure when we will get to the happy medium with respect to rolling dice for skills or what that will look like.
Also this is a fantasy gaming world, not the Smithsonian with dice and virgin beverages.
For me, it's simple: "Is this an unusual or arduous circumstance, or is it just something the PC would have frequently done on a day-to-day basis, and therefore no roll is required?"
Very much the "take 10 rule" except I don't need a number.
Selling stuff to a local merchant at stated book price? No Appraise nor Bargaining roll needed.
Visiting your home town in winter? No Survival roll needed.
You have levels of cleric and you're performing basic wedding or funeral rites? No Knowledge: Religion roll required.
A roll should only be made when you're trying to do something out of the ordinary. The whole, "When a failure has consequences," doesn't work for me because screwing up a wedding certainly has massive social consequences, but it isn't something any trained cleric would ever do without extenuating circumstances.
I've said it many times, but it bears repeating: The best campaign I ever ran was Rise of the Runelords, and the best sessions I ran for that campaign were the ones where the dice never hit the table.
Die rolling is a net negative experience for players. Don't ask for it unless something unusual is happening.
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"I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."
That's the point of spending money on preventatives. What this reads as to me is "I hate it when PCs don't let me torment them".
So Shiro put it well: "So, by your rules, we should just hole up and stop adventuring for 3 months every year. I guess that's what we'll do."
In before "you all didn't do anything all winter, so the BBEG was able to execute all their plans unopposed. They had magic/NPC riches/something that allowed them to work through the cold. You should have braved the dangers while you had the chance."
This is a huge batch of red flags. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up walking out on this GM. I certainly already would have.
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"I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."That's the point of spending money on preventatives. What this reads as to me is "I hate it when PCs don't let me torment them".
So Shiro put it well: "So, by your rules, we should just hole up and stop adventuring for 3 months every year. I guess that's what we'll do."In before "you all didn't do anything all winter, so the BBEG was able to execute all their plans unopposed. They had magic/NPC riches/something that allowed them to work through the cold. You should have braved the dangers while you had the chance."
This is a huge batch of red flags. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up walking out on this GM. I certainly already would have.
Shiro's going to work with him this week on just how stupid this is.
And since he's the only GM we have at the moment, we've been tolerating it for a while. But last session was just TOO over the top, so we're making it clear: Stop making us roll for everything, or we'll stop doing anything, and the campaign will grind to a boring halt as we camp for the winter.