I will be starting Jade Regent in a few months, most likely, and I know what I'd like to do. I'm aware it's not terribly powerful, but it shouldn't be useless either. If anyone has any ideas on how to up the effectiveness, that'd be appreciated.
The build is 3 rogue/4 magus/X arcane trickster. Back to magus if we for some reason go past 17th level, which is unlikely. I have early feats worked out, but don't know what I'll do past level 3.
Feats
1st: Weapon Finesse, 2nd: Dervish Dance (through rogue trick Combat Trick), 3rd: Combat Casting.
Traits
Magical Knack (+2 caster level on magus spells), Hero Worship Ameiko (+2 Concentration)
If you have rogue just to get Sneak Attack, I would suggest replacing it with Alchemist (Vivisectionist, Internal Alchemist). Mutagen gets your Dex & AC through the roof.
In fact if you want a sneak attacker who strikes rapidly with scimitar & has some magic. I would suggest Alcemist (Vivisectionist, Internal Alchemist) level 1, then 3 levels of Magus (Kensai) to get Wand Mastery and then the rest of the levels again Alcemist (Vivisectionist, Internal Alchemist). Well that might be too far off from the original...
Hmm, interesting. I did mostly have rogue for sneak attack, though the extra feat at 2 helps everything work better. Mutagens are a really good way to make the build better. At 3 alchemist, it's +4 Dex for 10 min/level, or 30 min, which never goes up. I'm not sure if that's better than evasion or not ... I definitely need to consider this build though.
The reason I didn't go for kensai is I like my light armor. Since I'd only have 4 levels of kensai, I'd max out at +4 Int bonus to AC. I'd much rather be more survivable with base magus, though I am still contemplating the spellblade archetype. The force dagger doesn't count as wielding a weapon in your offhand, but giving up spell recall is painful ...
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If you are allowed to buy potions of Mage Armor, rare things are more survivable AC wise than Kensai-Alchemist. However if you are really surely going to arcane trickster being Kensai just harms you there because of the diminished spellcasting. So I wouldn't do that even myself probably (I was trying to talk you out of Arcane Trickster also in the previous post :D ).
Human Alchemist 1 (Vivisectionist, Internal Alchemist), Magus 2 (20pt buy)
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 7
AC in boosts: 10 (base) + 4 Mage Armor potion + 4 Shield spell + 7 dex bonus with mutagen + 2 mutagens Natural Armor bonus = 27 witch is pretty good for any 3rd level char (actually this is the boosted AC at level 1 also). Kensai would have 29 here.
Attack is also greatly enchanced with mutagen, since you are going to do Scimitar Dance.
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I think losing Spellstrike is a terrible thing for Scimitar Dance build (Spellblade).
Yeah, I know arcane trickster isn't very good. I just really want to build one, so I'm trying to make the most effective arcane trickster I can (note, not the most effective character I can, because that would take arcane trickster out of the picture entirely).
Also, we're running a 15 point buy. So while those stats look wonderful ... definitely can't get anything that good. Thus the tiefling- gives up the extra feat, but puts pluses in Dex and Int. My DM is allowing the powerful races, but only at the cost of a trait. He's giving everyone an extra trait for a campaign trait though, thus the standard two I gave above.
Stats I wound up with are: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 6
An alternative set of stats: Str 10, Dex 20, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 5. I think my first set, being a little more balanced, is a better idea.
I don't like using very many consumables, not because they're bad, but because they take actions. Mage armor potion + mutagen + Shield/attack is 2 rounds of buffing before I even hit anything once ... things'll be dead by the time I'm ready to party. Keeping it down to one buffing action is crucial.
It's the mutagen that keeps tempting me to alchemist though, not going to lie. I still might, but it means my 1 round of buffing is pull out and drink a mutagen. Thus, the preference for armor instead of mage armor :).
Not to mention that as soon as you get to magic armor it pulls ahead strongly from Mage armor.
I just don't see this as a viable combo. The AT doesn't have the bab or hp to do ANY sort of melee well, and the magus doesn't have enough spells to make much of a difference after lagging 3 levels behind.
With wiz or sor, the class is very good at many things, but works best as a scout/skillmonkey (wiz) or scout/face (sor) who can cast blast spells with sneak attack added (and still miss) when she can plan ahead. She can't fight for diddly, though. She lacks the spell slots and levels to make herself a good warrior for one fight and still do much else in a day.
4 levels of magus doesn't bring enough to the table, I'm afraid, cool as it sounds.
The real problem is the AT PrC itself. PF improved it, but rogue/bard hp, bab, and 6 skill points per level is what it needs to work right in a party of 4 or 5. A large party wouldn't need one at all, though it still makes a fantastic scout/spy/support caster as is.
Just my opinion.
Benicio Del Espada wrote: I just don't see this as a viable combo. The AT doesn't have the bab or hp to do ANY sort of melee well, and the magus doesn't have enough spells to make much of a difference after lagging 3 levels behind.
With wiz or sor, the class is very good at many things, but works best as a scout/skillmonkey (wiz) or scout/face (sor) who can cast blast spells with sneak attack added (and still miss) when she can plan ahead. She can't fight for diddly, though. She lacks the spell slots and levels to make herself a good warrior for one fight and still do much else in a day.
4 levels of magus doesn't bring enough to the table, I'm afraid, cool as it sounds.
The real problem is the AT PrC itself. PF improved it, but rogue/bard hp, bab, and 6 skill points per level is what it needs to work right in a party of 4 or 5. A large party wouldn't need one at all, though it still makes a fantastic scout/spy/support caster as is.
Just my opinion.
Eh, 4 levels of magus is better than 3 levels of wizard. You get AC, better HD, better BAB, better saves, and enough spells that are mostly what you want them to be (spells you can sneak attack with and buffing). You still have good skills and you're only losing 0.5 BAB from if you were straight rogue. AT isn't very good, but I think it can be not utter fail. The magus ability to weave casting and melee means you can buff, and thus be much less fragile than a straight rogue, while still fulfilling a damage function. Or just blast away with (intensified) shocking grasps! And while I'll be down 3 casting levels, which is very painful, I'll only be down one caster level (thanks to Magical Knack trait). So as soon as I get spells, I'll be casting them at 3rd caster level right away, which takes away some of the pain.
At any rate, this isn't about making the bestest character ever. It's about making as good an AT as possible, with magus as the casting class.
Benicio is right.
What you want to do is combine spells, melee and sneak attack together. You want a fighter/rogue/wizard, or a "super gish." It will be very difficult to be effective. And do not forget you'll be behind, only because you are multiclassing, one hp per level once you are out of your Magus levels.
The closer you will get to this and still be effective, I think, is by playing a Sandman or an Arcane Duelist Bard. AT is not meant to go melee, but to use stealth to avoid being a target, battlefield control to immobilise or deny AC dex bonus to targets and finish with ray spells to sneak on those immobilised, flat footed targets.
But please, prove me wrong! I was able to get close to what you are searching for in 3.5 using Unseen Seer and Abjurant Champion, but I still don't see a way to do it in Pathfindrer.
The problem is a rogue 3/magus 4 has a bab of 5, and gets the wiz bab from then on, for a grand total of 10 at 17th.
As long as you have a wand of true strike and a round to prepare, you can hit once, and maybe add some (weak) sneak attack to your magical damage. With your low bab, you're better off with a ranged touch sneak attack. You won't have lots of those.
Benicio Del Espada wrote: The problem is a rogue 3/magus 4 has a bab of 5, and gets the wiz bab from then on, for a grand total of 10 at 17th.
As long as you have a wand of true strike and a round to prepare, you can hit once, and maybe add some (weak) sneak attack to your magical damage. With your low bab, you're better off with a ranged touch sneak attack. You won't have lots of those.
I shall compare a straight rogue to this build.
17 Rogue: 12 BAB, 8d6 sneak attack, 1d6+1 base weapon damage before magic is factored in. Full TWF makes it 6 attacks a round.
17 my build: 10 BAB, 7d6 sneak attack, 1d6+9 base weapon damage before magic is factored in. Magus spell combat makes it 3 attacks a round, but the magic one can be a ray or highly damage spell against touch AC.
At 17, the rogue has +2 hit, +1d6 sneak attack, and 3 additional attacks a round. This is not insignificant, though the two tertiaries are unlikely to hit. The AT has +8 base damage and a touch attack at highest BAB, which makes up for some of the lost attacks' potential damage. She can go greater invisible and/or dim door, sacrificing maximum damage for the potential to get full round attacks more often. She also has two additional feats to use on whatever she wants to.
As for the low HD, eh. I played a rogue in 3.5, so it's the same as it was before, and I know how to not-die fairly well.
Comparing to rogue is dangerous here as rogue has lagged battle wise since 3.5. While in 3.5 the difference of rogues attack at (lets say) 17th level was about 5 (=difference of BABs) compared to full BAB classes its now much more:
Fighter gets Weapon Training (+4 to hit / +4 to damage ) , gloves of duelling (+2/+2... yes I know this is an equipment, but its so great it has to be counted in), Greater Weapon Focus & weapon specs (+1/+4) to a total +7/+10
Barbarian gets Greater Rage (+3/+4 assuming 2 handed), Reckless Abandon (+5/+0), witch hunter (0/+5) to a total +8/+9
Ranger gets Instant Enemy spell (+8/+8)
Inquisitor gets Judgement (+4/+6), Greater Bane (+2/+14), Divine Power spell (+5/+5), BAB trailing full BAB (-5/0) to a total +6/+25, but yeah needs prep time to fire it up
Pallys smite has had a serious update and so on
The base thing i'm trying to say is that when in 3.5 Rogue had to struggle against about difference of 5-6 in the attack bonus, it has increased to 13 in Pathfinder witch is of course a huge step. So while you have good memories about rogue from 3.5 the optimization has to be a lot more cunning in PF in order to make rogue work in combat. Sorry for making this another rogue bash message :( (there were enough already).
But the point being about your build is that when you are 2 behind rogue in the attack bonus at the 17th level, you are about 15 behind the other frontline classes.
Just wanted to point out that the Sage Sorcerer from UM could make for a great AT. Normally wizard is best due to being intelligence based, but because the sage uses Int instead of Cha it allows the AT to really shine as a skill monkey.
For ATs I like archers who utilize spells to get sneak attacks. Greater Invis against targets who can't see you make all attacks sneak attacks. And using a bow plus rapid shot and haste can give even the AT with his lowly BAB multiple sneak attacks in a round.
I actually think you could make AT based on Rogue and Magus work (should all be PFS legal as well):
I would go with Tiefling 20 PT buy:
Str: 13
Dex: 15 (+2)
Con: 10
Int: 16 (+2)
Wis: 8
Cha: 12 (-2)
Alternate racial features: Prehensile Tail instead of Fiendish sorcery and Maw or Claw Maw (bite attack) instead of darkness
You start off as a Magus (Kensai) and go till 5th level for the ability to make your weapon keen and the additional trait
Your chosen weapon will be a Kukri
Traits: Magical Knack // Wayang Spellhunter
You start off with the feats
weapon focus // weapon procificiency
from the Kensai
Feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Power Attack
5: Intensify // Curnogon Smash
You than take 3 levels as Rogue (Knifemaster), which gives your sneak attack with the Kukri D8s
Feats:
7: Dazzling Display
At level 9 you are free to take your first level as AT
Feats:
9: Shattered Defense
I would than continue with AT levels until you reach level 18 ;)
Feats:
11: Quicken
13: Maximize
15: Spell Perfection
Rest: chose whatever
A point that gets pretty ridicolous after level 18:
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Meaning: 7D8 Sneak attack Damage from Kukri, 10 D6 Damage from Shocking Grasp, 7D6 Sneak attack Damage added through surprise spell to the spell damage of shocking grasp (all doubled on a crit range 15-20); you will pull that off twice a round (pearls of power are your friend), one being quickened, one being maximized and also attack with all your normal attacks with the 7d8 sneak attack damage (+1 Bite attack with d4s)
Your poor BAB will also be partly compensated by the fact, that most opponents should be flat-footed all the time, also allowing you to sneak attack without flanking...
You wont be able to build an AT that pulls off comparable damage. Do the math at any level you're interested in. You will be a great skill monkey though.
What do want from Arcane Trickster?
@Wasum: so what DPR would you require at which levels (please post AC to calculate to-hit chance) to be comparable? I actually think the built I post does some pretty good damage
Even though this is a total thread necro, it's relevant to me, as I'm currently playing a Hobgoblin Rogue/Magus. It's totally not optimized, but it is pretty sweet flavor. My build:
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 11
Cha 10
Stats were rolled, so no real min-maxing, but I feel that this is at least similar to how most dex magi are built.
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Rapier (I found a keen rapier), Dodge, and Combat Expertise. I'm thinking that I'll take Gang Up next level, so that I will almost always count as flanking (we've got a melee druid, summoner wizard, and 2 rangers with pets)
Why this is better than straight rogue: I get TWF for free (essentially), plus spellcasting ability, a nice little enhancement bonus from arcane pool, better saves, and a couple of neat tricks from my arcanas.
Why this is better than straight magus: Tons of skill points, more class skills, Sneak attack, evasion, and a nice bonus to reflex saves.
Why Arcane Trickster appeals to me: After 6 levels of Magus, I don't really get any super cool benefits. Knowledge pool is nice, but certainly not necessary, medium and heavier armors will not be utilized by me, the couple of extra feats aren't really that big a deal, etc. The thing that does hurt is the lack of access to higher-level arcanas, but there has to be SOME sacrifice. The only real appeal of more rogue levels would be the skill points, some decent rogue talents, and improved evasion. Well, as an int-based character, I'm not hurting for skills, the rogue talents are cool/neat/whatever, but not necessary, and I'm REALLY not worried about improved evasion (because I'll probably make my save anyway). Instead, I'll take AT, get full progression on sneak attack and spellcasting. I'll get some cool abilities (Not flanked? Not flat-footed? Whatever, I sneak attack anyway!), and not miss out on all that much. Sounds like a winner to me.
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