My bard is going up a level, and gets 2 new 3rd level spells. We use core + APG. I won't take haste because someone else in the party has it, and I won't take invisibility because I have it at lower levels and others in the party have it as well.
So, I am leaning towards Charm Monster because that seems like the archetypical bard spell.
Then there's
Slow (a powerful debuff)
Reviving Finale (Immediate actions are powerful)
After that there are other good ones:
Confusion (a powerful spell, but a pain to run because you have to roll for each person each round. Too much rolling slows things down.)
Fear
Displacement
Good Hope
Gaseous Form
Any thoughts? Anything I am missing?
Thanks
Prawn
Nice! 3rd level spells are generally pretty good, so let's see what you can get.
Blink - I'm not sure why you didn't consider this, but it's very useful in both utilitarian and combat ways. Walk through walls, 50% miss chance, +2 attack vs. anyone who can't see invisible, half damage from AoE damage. It's the bee's knees. The only real drawback is that if you decide to go around casting spells on other people there's a 20% chance that your spell will activate on the ethereal plane.
Charm Monster - As always, it depends on how your DM runs the charm series. By the book it works about like a successful diplomacy check (or wild empathy, as the case may be), so your mileage may vary. You'll need to either use it in a 1on1 battle (not very common) or be really convincing to the monster you just charmed.
Confusion - Useful if you can get it off in the 1st round. Otherwise not so much. Remember that confused targets always attack whomever attacked them last, so there's no rolling once you get things going.
Dispel Magic - I know, it's not great, but it's wonderful to know that someone in the party always has this base covered.
Displacement - It's blink, but for casters. This is inferior is most ways, since it provides concealment with few of the benefits (inability to target) and all the drawbacks (overcome with things like Blind Fight).
Gaseous Form - Useful, but only just. I never use it too often, myself, but I'm sure it's got a wide variety of applications.
Glibness - Oh my god, I love this spell. It's just incredibly fun. You can overcome even the stupidest penalties with a single application of this magic.
Good Hope - A solid bard buff.
Phantom Steed - More often than not, this is better than Gaseous Form.
Reviving Finale - 2d6 HP? For a 3rd level spell? And it's still gonna be 2d6 when you're 20? This spell is a giant trap. That's an average of 7HP. At best it's gonna prevent someone from bleeding out or ending a bleed effect.
Scrying - Often underrated.
Sculpt Sound - Can be fun, especially for the sneaky types.
Seek Thoughts - This spell is so much fun I can't believe I didn't have it sooner.
Slow - You're absolutely right, it's very powerful. It targets Fortitude, which lessens its usefulness, but you can generally get it to stick to at least one target if you toss it out in a crowd.
Thanks for the ideas!
I hadn't thought about Blink or Displacement because I think a bard is a buffer, and I want things to buff the whole party with. Maybe next level.
I think charm monster is awesome. It stops fighting us, so we get XP. The duration is 1 day a level! At worst, it won't fight us, at best, it will help me out for a long time. As a bard, I have a high diplomacy, so convincing it to help should be no problem.
Between slow and confusion, Confusion makes for more rolling because they get all their attacks and possibly a roll to see what they are doing that round. Slow means fewer rolls for the enemy, so that speeds up combat. Faster combat means more combats per session.
As to reviving Finale, yes it is weak, but it is an immediate action, so I could get a full attack and get some healing in, or start bard song as a move action, cast a spell, and also get in some healing in the same round. The healing is a burst as well, so it helps everyone, and unlike channel, I don't need a feat to de-target enemies. So, it is weak, but I like it because it is immediate. I don't like it as much as charm or confusion or slow, but I like it.
Prawn
Displacement is VERY good, and you can cast it on anyone.
Glibness is great! It is almost better then Charm because you can make up the most bizarre BS, and well, it must be true!
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html
If no one else has it, dispel magic can save the day.
Sculpt Sound is AMAZING! If you hit a caster with it, they can't cast spells with verbal components! The best part is that you can make them cluck like a chicken, or sing the praises of your god, or shout "Sorry, false alarm", or sing or whatever. Plus, it is bard only, so most folks have never seen it.
If you have a group that is willing to let you talk first, Charm Monster is good. Once combat starts, creatures get +4 vs the spell.
Between Confusion and Slow, I would go for Slow. Less rolling, often better effect then confusion, and is just a damn good spell.
I hadn't thought about Blink or Displacement because I think a bard is a buffer, and I want things to buff the whole party with. Maybe next level.
Yeah, you really gotta step outside of that mindframe. Bards are excellent buffers, much like clerics are excellent healers, but they're so much more.
I think charm monster is awesome. It stops fighting us, so we get XP. The duration is 1 day a level! At worst, it won't fight us, at best, it will help me out for a long time. As a bard, I have a high diplomacy, so convincing it to help should be no problem.
Be aware that you'll also have to convince the monster that your allies aren't its enemies (since only you get the free ride). Invest in as many languages as your skill points allow.
Between slow and confusion, Confusion makes for more rolling because they get all their attacks and possibly a roll to see what they are doing that round. Slow means fewer rolls for the enemy, so that speeds up combat. Faster combat means more combats per session.
Yes, that's true. But confusion means that your enemies are killing each other, and not you. Less heavy lifting for the thrifty bard.
As to reviving Finale, yes it is weak, but it is an immediate action, so I could get a full attack and get some healing in, or start bard song as a move action, cast a spell, and also get in some healing in the same round. The healing is a burst as well, so it helps everyone, and unlike channel, I don't need a feat to de-target enemies. So, it is weak, but I like it because it is immediate. I don't like it as much as charm or confusion or slow, but I like it.
It's not just weak, it's incredibly weak. It's an immediate action, sure, which allows it some flexibility (take less damage if it's gonna kill an ally or yourself), but it's only an average of 7 HP. When you gain access to 3rd level spells you're dealing with the fact that one use of this is half your 3rd level spells for what equates to roughly a +2 con bonus to your whole party, and it only gets worse. Using an immediate action takes up your swift action next turn, and bards actually put swift actions to good use (arcane strike, bardic performance after 12th level). I'm not saying it's worthless, because no spell is. I'm just suggesting that perhaps you overvalue it for it's position in the action economy. But hey, it's not like you can't train it out later. :D
Might I recommend "Arcane Concordance" from the APG. This spell is extremely useful especially if your Bard has a familiar to carry the buff around. Your casters will love you for this one and you will enjoy the benefits as well. Link is below.
Do Bards get familiars?
Not that I know of.
Wow, I was all ready to defend reviving finale, but upon reading the spell, i have to give it a thumbs down. It is a swift action to cast, not an immediate action. (The word immediately is used in the description, but the spell is clearly a swift action.) Not only that, but you need bard song going in order to cast it, so when it really is needed, you might have to jump through hoops to use it. I would say if you had a huge party, or if it was 1d6/2 levels, it might be useful, but I'm just not seeing it.
An item that let you use the spell 3X/day would be a really cool bard item however...
Oops! I knew it was swift, but I said immediate. My argument still stands that it allows you to do more in a round, but only on your turn.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Like I said, this wouldn't be one of the first couple of spells that I take, but it might be third or fourth.
I was asking about familiars because Covenant said "his spell is extremely useful especially if your Bard has a familiar to carry the buff around." Maybe he was taling about Bard/Sorcerers or some Bard variant
Oops! I knew it was swift, but I said immediate. My argument still stands that it allows you to do more in a round, but only on your turn.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Like I said, this wouldn't be one of the first couple of spells that I take, but it might be third or fourth.
I was asking about familiars because Covenant said "his spell is extremely useful especially if your Bard has a familiar to carry the buff around." Maybe he was taling about Bard/Sorcerers or some Bard variant
Sea Singer Bards can get a familiar (raven or monkey), as can bards who multiclass with Magus, Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch, or Druid. They're laughably easy to obtain, and since most of their abilities scale based on your character attributes it's not even a waste.
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I have not yet played a high-level Pathfinder Bard, but my character for over ten years was a high-level 3.0-3.5 Bard and here are my discoveries when it comes to spellcasting.
One: Buffs >> Debuffs
While debuffs are fantastic overall, there are two factors not driving a bard's ability to debuff. One, because they usually try to multi-task Bards tend to have a lower casting stat than appreciable full casters, which reduces their saving throws. Two, while they may get spells a level or so earlier than their wizardly counterparts, that reduced spell level also reduces saves. The end result are spells with a saving throw one to two points lower than it could be, and unless you're focusing on casting, I'll bet you don't have the feats like spell penetration and spell focus to help you out. I'd take a pack of buffs spells, which you know will ALWAYS work vs. a set of spells with a reduced chance of working any day.
Note - Spells without saves though could be reasonable alternatives.
Two: Debuffs have limits
The biggest problem with the bard debuffs is that a significant quality of them do not work against constructs/undead/vermin/etc. In an undead heavy section of any campaign you may suddenly find that your spell selection is less than spectacular. I know in our last adventure my bard felt virtually worthless as my huge array of awesome debuffs and charms had absolutely zero value in the campaign.
There are other hints as well, but those two I live by when I create bards these days.
The debuffs not working against vermin/undead etc is another vote for slow over confusion. I prefer buffing too, but hey, I am singing, and then we have bless and prayer, that's serious buffing. I also have rage which stacks with all of the above.
My own bard got very good mileage out of gaseous form. Combined with invisibility, it lets you scout ahead (in some cases: scout out entire dungeon-levels or buildings) with very little risk of detection. Also good for circumventing traps, setting up ambushes and saving your skin when things go pear-shaped. Highly recommended.
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hmmm...great question...
I would have to say, in order:
-Haste (understand if you don't want it...someone else can be the hastemonkey)
-Glibness. Seriously, +20 to Bluff is "I Win" under most situations where talking is an option
-Good Hope. Morale bonus, so WILL stack with Inspire. Move Action Sing, Standard Action cast Good Hope, instant +4/+4 to all your ally's attacks. Especially deadly with large groups.
-See Invisibility. Sure, Lvl 3 vs. Lvl 2 hurts, but so does not being able to see the Rogue/Ninja/Wizard/Invisible Monster. Perception as a class skill is just gravy.
Honorable Mentions:
Phantom Steed. Long duration, fast movement transport spell. Very good for surprise assaults (think Apocalypse Now, except instead of helicopters, you have water/air-running horses)
Charm Monster. Currently hate this spell, because the Infernal Sorcerer in my KM game rocks it out so very much. Still wicked awesome.
Scrying. Forewarned is forearmed, afterall.
Blink and Displacement are fantastic, but just as good on scroll as spells known. The same goes for Feather Step, Mass (playing in Serpent's Skull...difficult terrain sucks!)
Finally, Major Image can do some very fun things. Some GMs (and players) shy away from Illusion magic, but done well, it can win fights before they even happen.
Great reccomendations.
hmmm...great question...
I would have to say, in order:
-Haste (understand if you don't want it...someone else can be the hastemonkey)
Someone else has it already, or it would first on my list.
-Glibness. Seriously, +20 to Bluff is "I Win" under most situations where talking is an option
I love it, but it is only useful some of the time. I want it later, but it isn't first on my list.
-Good Hope. Morale bonus, so WILL stack with Inspire. Move Action Sing, Standard Action cast Good Hope, instant +4/+4 to all your ally's attacks. Especially deadly with large groups.
But GH's morale bonus won't stack with prayer and bless, which the cleric almost always casts. I already have Inspire Courage and Rage, both of which stack with morale bonuses.
-See Invisibility. Sure, Lvl 3 vs. Lvl 2 hurts, but so does not being able to see the Rogue/Ninja/Wizard/Invisible Monster. Perception as a class skill is just gravy.
A great spell, but I already have Glitterdust, and I don't ahve enough spells known that i can afford to duplicate effects.
I might take the expanded Arcane feat and pick up some of these other spells later. Right no I am going from level 7 to 8, so I have the choice of only two spells. There are so many great ones!
Great reccomendations.
But GH's morale bonus won't stack with prayer and bless, which the cleric almost always casts. I already have Inspire Courage and Rage, both of which stack with morale bonuses.
...
A great spell, but I already have Glitterdust, and I don't ahve enough spells known that i can afford to duplicate effects.
I might take the expanded Arcane feat and pick up some of these other spells later. Right no I am going from level 7 to 8, so I have the choice of only two spells. There are so many great ones!
Prayer is a luck bonus, not morale, so stacks with Good Hope.
See invis + glitterdust lets you reveal the bad guys to the fighter. If you just have glitterdust, you have to guess where the target is (sometimes easy, others not) and if you just have see invis, you need to deal with it yourself. Having both can be a good thing.
Good point about good hope! SO it stacks with prayer but not bless. Good.
I don't have enough spell slots to take both see invis and glitterdust. By level 17, I will have 6 3rd level spells. That still isn't enough to duplicate effects. If I take see invis, I will ditch glitterdust.
But see invis is something that works only some of the time.
I can't see taking it when Haste, Good hope, Slow, Confusion, Displacement etc will ALWAYS work in every combat.
I was speaking of a Sea-Singer Bard. I have one in my current group that uses Good Hope, Bard Song, Arcane Concordance, and Melee attacks to good advantage while leaving her Parrot familiar with the flying sorcerer.
It is rather impressive as the extra free range from the Free meta-magic feat and the +1 on Arcane DC's is very, very nice.
Yes, Arcane Concordance Rocks, and everyone on the team can share in the joy!