Gunslingers and their guns


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 1

Dark Archive

I've noticed that a lot of people have been complaining about the damage that the guns used by the gunslinger does (quite the mouthful), so I went and looked back through some of the old stuff that came before the gunslinger and lo and behold there was the pathfinder chronicles campaign setting. True, some of the rules are a little dated now, what with Pathfinder RPG but the section I wanted to draw attention to was the section called Firearms. Now we have rules for misfire and after a quick double check, we don't have the exploding dice rule.

Basically when rolling the damage dice of a gun you kept rolling damage if you rolled maximum dice (in the case of the playtest this would be 8 on a d8), which I think would help balance the some what low range and other problems that people have pointed out.

From a fluff point, Alkenstar have other types of firearms due to the lack of magic (it being non-existent) so they have developed fantastical weapons of war. That said, I think it would be fair to say that they musket and the flintlock pistol are but the tip of deep and dangerous iceberg of destruction.

Just some food for thought for you all to think over.
Please try not to eat me
Nighteyez


However, there is the 3.5 D&D Dungeonmaster's Guide. Guess what it has? Firearms. 1d10 for pistol, which 250 gp. 1d12 for musket, which is 500 gp. Though, for some reason, they have no price for ammo, but I suppose with some math you could figure it out. Sling bullet for the bullet + the price of a bomb(150) in the DMG divided by how many shots you can get from that amount of powder(100)... It ends up coming to about 3gp a shot(if not lower, cause I was just giving a conservative estimate).

The complaint shouldn't really the dice, since the Crossbow does similar damage with the same drawbacks. The complaint is the cost & the fact that it can explode for no logical reason. You have to pack a lot of powder & misfire a few times without clearing the barrel before it exploding is an issue.

Liberty's Edge

Nighteyez wrote:

From a fluff point, Alkenstar have other types of firearms due to the lack of magic (it being non-existent) so they have developed fantastical weapons of war. That said, I think it would be fair to say that they musket and the flintlock pistol are but the tip of deep and dangerous iceberg of destruction.

Just some food for thought for you all to think over.
Please try not to eat me
Nighteyez

I've always maintained the idea that either Alkenstar hides a rather large amount of much more sophisticated firearms for the defence of the country or when when some of the dates for Alkenstar were drawn up they didn't notice how far back they put Alkenstar's exsistence. The Gunworks were founded in 1903AR and they produced Worldbreaker in 2009AR, I could easily see Worldbreaker being a glorified iron tub that chucked a stone ball a middling distance and was more effective as a terror weapon than a cannon.

Then we advance 2441 years and the Gunworks builds the Great Maw of Rovagug and curiously enough it seems to be a developmental sideline to Worldbreaker of ages past, it's a fixed cannon of smaller diameter and interestingly enough it has been fired so infrequently to suggest it's either ceremonial or never worked properly (it's frankly ill-conceived bore size, shell weight, and crew size speaks that there was no idea of how super-large guns operate and the immense crew requirements they need to be fully functional. As it stands Rovagug would have to be firing hollow wooden shells loaded by a crew of Giants for it's statistics to make even a modicum of sense). As of the current date Alkenstar has a single facility with 2809 years of firearms building expertise and the current information would have you believe they're only capable of building 1400's equivalent snaphance and artillery that makes a Parrot Rifle look like a laser cannon.

Now in the rest of Golarion this kind of amazing technological stagnation would make perfect sense due to the presence of magic and gods but Alkenstar has no such recourse and it's populace is forced to rely on their own intellect to defend themselves. As a result I will continue to believe that the current crop of exploding sewer pipes are simply ancient relics or 'export' models Alkenstar sends out to keep the outside world from prying to closely into their industry.

From a rules standpoint I can easily see the reasoning behind making firearms such a dangerous bother of a weapon but it's kind of a mystery given Paizo has dealt with firearms on a much larger scale long ago back in Dragon magazine and those rules while a tad bit wonky seem to have be more functional than the current crop of rules.

Liberty's Edge

InfernosReaper wrote:

However, there is the 3.5 D&D Dungeonmaster's Guide. Guess what it has? Firearms. 1d10 for pistol, which 250 gp. 1d12 for musket, which is 500 gp. Though, for some reason, they have no price for ammo, but I suppose with some math you could figure it out. Sling bullet for the bullet + the price of a bomb(150) in the DMG divided by how many shots you can get from that amount of powder(100)... It ends up coming to about 3gp a shot(if not lower, cause I was just giving a conservative estimate).

The complaint shouldn't really the dice, since the Crossbow does similar damage with the same drawbacks. The complaint is the cost & the fact that it can explode for no logical reason. You have to pack a lot of powder & misfire a few times without clearing the barrel before it exploding is an issue.

There's also d20 modern, d20 future, and Star Wars. In all of those, the system is pretty straightforward. The exact dice totals can change a little (2d6 vs 1d12, 2d4 vs 1d8, etc) but the pattern remains.

Unpowered Ranged Weapons:
tiny/ultralight one-handed: 1d4 (dart)
small/light one-handed: 1d6 (javelin)
standard one-handed: 1d8 (spear)
special one-handed: 1d10 (no examples in Pathfinder)
two-handed: 1d12 (Not Possible*)
*unpowered ranged weapons are almost universally launched using the entire body in a single motion, so there is no such thing as a "one handed" or "two-handed" weapon; they all use two hands (and the rest of the body) to attack, and they all only need one hand to carry when not in use.

Unpowered Melee Weapons:
tiny/ultralight one-handed: 1d4 (dagger)
small/light one-handed: 1d6 (short sword)
standard one-handed: 1d8 (longsword)
special one-handed: 1d10 (bastard sword)
two-handed: 1d12 (greataxe)

Modern-Day Ranged Weapons (slugthrowers):
tiny/ultralight one-handed: 2d4 (very small, concealable pistol)
small/light one-handed: 2d6 (standard handgun)
standard one-handed: 2d8 (heavy pistol; two-handed rifles with this damage range are also common, and usually include either more range or auto/multifire options)
special one-handed: 2d10 (generally not used; iconic weapons like the Magnum / Desert Eagle might be given this damage value, depending on the setting. Also, the standard value of most two-handed Rifles, with added range and multi/auto fire)
two-handed: 2d12 (heavy rifles, which often require a separate proficiency feat to use; also, the damage done by shotguns/scatter-guns deal in their first range increment, which is almost always 10 feet; damage drops by one die step every increment)

Powered Melee Weapons (generally future tech at this point, though the chainsaw sometimes gets mentioned):
tiny/ultralight one-handed: 2d4 (vibrodagger)
small/light one-handed: 2d6 (vibrosword)
standard one-handed: 2d8 (Lightsaber; also, the damage a chainsaw typically deals, though it is a two-handed weapon)
special one-handed: 2d10 (molecule-edged Katana)
two-handed: 2d12 (Vibroaxe)

Laser/Blaser Ranged Weapons (Energy Pistols):
tiny/ultralight one-handed: 3d4 (hold-out pistol)
small/light one-handed: 3d6 (standard blaster)
standard one-handed: 3d8 (heavy bolter; again, also carbine / light rifle damage; rifles/carbines are two-handed, but generally have extended range and auto/multi fire options)
special one-handed: 3d10 (generally not used; iconic weapons might be given this damage value, depending on the setting. Also, the standard damage of most two-handed Rifles, with added range and multi/auto fire)
two-handed: 3d12 (heavy rifles, which often require a separate proficiency feat to use)

Bombs: self-contained, fist-size explosives tend to do 4d6 damage, regardless of the setting or era. Exact radius depends on publisher, but does not appear to be tied to tech level. Instead, advances in tech allow for more control over when the bomb/grenade goes off.

The flint-lock pistol/musket are often a die step or two down, though I have no idea why. The poor range and horrible reload time are penalties enough.

One thing these systems have in common is the death of strength; when a 4th level Fighter/Soldier can make 3-4 ranged attacks at 2d8 damage each, the guy with the big sword who gets one attack a round and has to run across the wide open field looks really silly. But there's a really simple solution to that problem, and I'm surprised no one's ever used it before.

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