| Ice_Deep |
Quote:Undo Artifice (Sp)
At 11th-level, you gain the ability to reduce a nonliving item to its component parts, essentially erasing the hand of artifice and rendering the item into a pile of raw natural materials. This effect acts as the spell polymorph any object, working on both magical and nonmagical nonliving objects. The duration is always permanent. Unlike polymorph any object, it cannot be used to mimic the effects of other spells. Items subject to this effect receive a Fortitude saving throw to negate the effect. Magic items receive a circumstance bonus on this save equal to +1 for every 5,000 gp in the item’s value. You may use undo artifice a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.
Hello!
Regulars of these boards may remember a thread I made when the APG classes were in playtest about this ability. Unfortunately, that thread (here) raised more questions than it answered, and the wording of the ability didn't change in the final version. I am hoping that someone official-like can answer a few questions about this ability. Namely,Anetra wrote:If my Oracle had Craft Magic Arms and Armor, could they use Undo Artifice on a +1 Longsword, and then use the "raw natural materials" from this +1 Longsword to make a masterwork dagger into a +1 magic weapon?and
bittergeek wrote:All of that is largely moot because you're missing a critical point: the power duplicates a spell that is permanent not instantaneous. No matter what the pile of stuff you end up with looks like, it's still the original item - true seeing would still see it that way.I really like the flavour of this ability, but I don't want to take it if all it's good for is finding out what the ingredients of a cake are, and then dispelling it back into the full cake. If that is the case, I'll stick with the similarly flavoured...
Since this didn't get replied to, I wanted to find out what this was for, as it doesn't really have a use unless it breaks up items for item creation feats.
Please, can I get a official rules clarification on this before the end of the week if possible (Will be doing character creation on Friday)?
Here is the Revelation
"Undo Artif ice (Sp): At 11th-level, you gain the ability to
reduce a nonliving item to its component parts, essentially
erasing the hand of artif ice and rendering the item into
a pile of raw natural materials. This effect acts as the
spell polymorph any object, working on both magical and
nonmagical nonliving objects. The duration is always
permanent. Unlike polymorph any object, it cannot be used
to mimic the effects of other spells. Items subject to this
effect receive a Fortitude saving throw to negate the effect.
Magic items receive a circumstance bonus on this save
equal to +1 for every 5,000 gp in the item’s value. You may
use undo artif ice a number of times per day equal to your
Charisma modifier."
It refereed to Polymorph any object which is long, but from reading it I would guess it works as the following..
1. Turn a +2 Holy Dagger into a +2 Holy Longsword?
2. Turn Bracer of Armor +4 into Ring of Armor +4 (or something like this)?
3. Can it turn a 35,000 gp worth of "value" into any other item of that value changing the spells? (I would say no but might as well ask)
Basically (it seems to me) it allows you to change the form of a weapon/item (including magical) into some similar item thereby making the item usable because it's changed? For example weapon proficiency or item slot used.
Hopefully I worded this correctly so this can be answered.. Thanks!
| Kalyth |
I think you might be misunderstanding what the ability does. It doesnt change a magic item into another magic item. What it does it polymorph an item into its components parts. It is quite vague and could use a more explaining. My interpetation is thus.
If I used this ability on say a large door blocking the parties way. The door would "Fall apart" into a pile of its components (a few heavy planks of wood, hinge pieces, nails, brass fittings, some brass shavings from the brass inlay in the wood, etc...)
If you used it on a magical sword, what I see happening is you would end up with; a crude blade, some leather straps that were used to wrap the hilt, a peice of metal that formed the cross bar. I since it is permanent it would destroy the magical enchantment.
Basically the effect "disasembles the target object".
Used on the barred door of a prison cell would get you a pile of metal bars for example. Used on a wagon you would get a pile of wooden wagon peices and the metal parts (nails, washers, bolts, screws, etc..)
Used on a Painted clay pot, you would end up with a wad of clay and some paint.
To me it very much is an ability that requires creative use and could prove very useful in certain situations.
Someone wearing Full Plate, Puff, your plate falls off in to a pile of metal plates and leather straps and loose rivets and buckle peices, and mounds of clotht that formed the padding. Chain mail would end up as a pile of small metal rings.
| Kalyth |
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
And then they dispel magic and it returns to normal...
So yeah it's worthless compared to the Sunder Ability because the opponent is more likely to have Dispel than Make Whole as a spell.
Oh well, I guess thats one ability I won't be picking up on a Oracle.
Ok sure Dispel Magic might return it to normal but do you really see the dark knight spending 10 rounds during a fight putting his Full Plate back on?
If you use it to destroy the doors blocking the entrance to the evil temple do you really see the mad cultist spending time casting Dispel Magic to fix the door, while you are slaughtering them?
Actually being able to use dispel magic to return it to its previous form is actually more beneficial to the Oracle.
BBEG wearing Fullplate +4, party having a hard time hitting him. Touch puff platemail falls off. Party kills BBEG. Wizard casts dispel magic, wow no we have a suit of Fullplate. Heck I would think the ability to completely negate the benefits of any worn armor for an opponent to be a pretty nice power just in itself. I touch you and you loose all Armor bonuses to AC.
A group of raiders have just stolen the parties mystic idol they need to open the secret tomb. The raiders are paddling away in a small boat. The fighter is in Full plate and cant swim after them. The wizard with his 9 strength isnt about to either. Well the oracle dives in all he has to do is touch that boat and puff, floating peices of wood and some very wet raiders.
The only thing that I would wonder and would like an official clarification on is whether this destroys any magical enchantment. My first impulse is to say yes but if (as Polymorph) the effect can be undone with a dispel magic/break enchantment, then i think the magical properties would remain once "reassembled".
LazarX
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The only thing that I would wonder and would like an official clarification on is whether this destroys any magical enchantment. My first impulse is to say yes but if (as Polymorph) the effect can be undone with a dispel magic/break enchantment, then i think the magical properties would remain once "reassembled".
I'd say no. Remeber that a Make Whole spell won't restore the magic of a broken magic item.
| Kalyth |
Kalyth wrote:I'd say no. Remeber that a Make Whole spell won't restore the magic of a broken magic item.
The only thing that I would wonder and would like an official clarification on is whether this destroys any magical enchantment. My first impulse is to say yes but if (as Polymorph) the effect can be undone with a dispel magic/break enchantment, then i think the magical properties would remain once "reassembled".
In the case of broken magic items you are correct. How ever if I used a Normal Polymore Any Object to turn a Longsword +5 in to a fish. And then used break enchantment or dispel magic to return it to its normal form, wouldn't it still be a +5 longsword? The ability duplicates Polymorph any object.
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LazarX
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LazarX wrote:In the case of broken magic items you are correct. How ever if I used a Normal Polymore Any Object to turn a Longsword +5 in to a fish. And then used break enchantment or dispel magic to return it to its normal form, wouldn't it still be a +5 longsword? The ability duplicates Polymorph any object.Kalyth wrote:I'd say no. Remeber that a Make Whole spell won't restore the magic of a broken magic item.
The only thing that I would wonder and would like an official clarification on is whether this destroys any magical enchantment. My first impulse is to say yes but if (as Polymorph) the effect can be undone with a dispel magic/break enchantment, then i think the magical properties would remain once "reassembled".
I tend to think that UnMaking is more destructive in intent and nature than a polymorph spell. UnMaking is seeking to undo the essential build of an item whereas the polymorph is a change. A Nature oracle isn't trying to render an artifact easy to capture, she's trying to destroy it.
| Kalyth |
Kalyth wrote:I tend to think that UnMaking is more destructive in intent and nature than a polymorph spell. UnMaking is seeking to undo the essential build of an item whereas the polymorph is a change. A Nature oracle isn't trying to render an artifact easy to capture, she's trying to destroy it.LazarX wrote:In the case of broken magic items you are correct. How ever if I used a Normal Polymore Any Object to turn a Longsword +5 in to a fish. And then used break enchantment or dispel magic to return it to its normal form, wouldn't it still be a +5 longsword? The ability duplicates Polymorph any object.Kalyth wrote:I'd say no. Remeber that a Make Whole spell won't restore the magic of a broken magic item.
The only thing that I would wonder and would like an official clarification on is whether this destroys any magical enchantment. My first impulse is to say yes but if (as Polymorph) the effect can be undone with a dispel magic/break enchantment, then i think the magical properties would remain once "reassembled".
I agree but since they based the effects on Polymorph Any Object and didnt note any changes to the effects of dispeling or ending the effect then by RAW we would have to follow the effects of the spell save where they are directly altered by the description.
| Ice_Deep |
I think you might be misunderstanding what the ability does. It doesnt change a magic item into another magic item. What it does it polymorph an item into its components parts. It is quite vague and could use a more explaining. My interpetation is thus.
If I used this ability on say a large door blocking the parties way. The door would "Fall apart" into a pile of its components (a few heavy planks of wood, hinge pieces, nails, brass fittings, some brass shavings from the brass inlay in the wood, etc...)
The sunder ability the Oracle has does this as well (bypass door)
Ok so it's worse now because it destroys the players WBL, and stops them from getting magical items where sunder allows you to leave it with 1hp, and "broken".
If you used it on a magical sword, what I see happening is you would end up with; a crude blade, some leather straps that were used to wrap the hilt, a peice of metal that formed the cross bar. I since it is permanent it would destroy the magical enchantment.
Basically the effect "disasembles the target object".Used on the barred door of a prison cell would get you a pile of metal bars for example. Used on a wagon you would get a pile of wooden wagon peices and the metal parts (nails, washers, bolts, screws, etc..)
What use do I have for a bunch of little pieces of metal? Now for breaking the prisoners out, sunder works as werll
Used on a Painted clay pot, you would end up with a wad of clay and some paint.To me it very much is an ability that requires creative use and could prove very useful in certain situations.
Someone wearing Full Plate, Puff, your plate falls off in to a pile of metal plates and leather straps and loose rivets and buckle peices, and mounds of clotht that formed the padding. Chain mail would end up as a pile of small metal rings.
The problem I have with it in most circumstances the Sunder ability and this ability then do 90% the same thing. Anytime you give a character 2 of the same ability (or close enough) to choose from it seems dumb to me. The ability I mentioned in the first post is the one that would have some use, this has almost zero use if you have the sunder ability, or vis versa, accept sunder in most circumstances is far superior.
| Ice_Deep |
Correct me if I am wrong but can you, just in one hit, sunder someone's Full Plate?
That would depend upon the build of the character, but one can maximize the capability of any special ability if one chooses to do so. Just like it's possible the Undo Artifice won't work because the item has a +10 (50K, highly likely for high level) to it's save right?
Is the ability to "deconstruct" the armor any better? In some situations slightly...
Is it worth basically taking almost an exact copy of the same ability that has more versatility instead of a different ability?
Not in a million years, atleast not for me personally unless I design a "deconstuctor".
Now would the ability to permanently (until dispelled) change a item to another so it can be used (I.E. giants big magical sword into the right size/type for the fighter) be worth taking?
Yep...
So I will rule that is the use for it in my games, because to me it doesn't make any sense to have 2 of the same special ability, it's rather dumb.
Unfortunately my GM prob will not rule that way, but I will ask. So thats why I was hoping for official ruling it did something useful. I guess not.
| Kalyth |
In order to be good at sundering you would have to build an oracle as a "Sunderer". This means taking at least two feats (Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder), you when then have to also focus on having a good CMB, working off a 3/4 BAB. You would then have to contend with the fact that the Hardness of the armor increases based of the magical bonus of the armor and the Hitpoints as well (+10 HP per +1). Or you could spend one feat (Extra Revelation) and be able to do it with a touch attack and the item gets a saving throw.
Even agains normal Full Plate (+9 AC) you can neutralize that +9 AC with a touch.
I'm not saying it is the best ability in the game but it is far from useless.
It is kind of like saying that putting ranks in stealth is useless because invisibility exists and can accomplish the same thing.
At 100 Cubic feet per level there are many things that an oracle can effect with one touch in one round, that sunder would be either useless against or would take several rounds to break.
I could touch a wagon and reduce it to a pile of lumber, in one action.
The party trapped without equipment in a barred cell. One touch and the entire cell would fall apart.
Iron manacles, snap gone.
Bunch of bad guys running across and wooden bridge or even a metal bridge. Touch, poof, Happy landings.
Locked in a iron box about to be dropped of a bridge, snap scrap metal.
The out of combat applications of this ability to me blow sunder out of the water. Heck you could even use it to hide things you dont want discovered. Have an ancient relic that the local evil baron is searchign for. Deconstruct it until you are safe then puff dispel magic and its back good as new. Heck each person in the party could carry a peice of it just to make sure the baron doesnt get the whole thing.
Heck at high enough level you could touch a small cottage and reduce it to a pile of construction materials.
I think its a very cool power.
Also note that even though saving throws are allowed unattended objects always fail saving throws, unless they are magical.
Erosion Touch can produce similar effects but in the case of say normal Full Plate (Base HP: 45) even assuming that Erosion Touch by passes hardness, which is not specifically stated in the description, at 11th level it would typically take two uses of Erosion Touch to actually destroy the Full Plate. Add in an addition 10 HP per +1 bonus and the chances of Erosion Touch destroying the Armor drops even further.
On top of that you are destroying potential loot worth 750gp (1500gp/2). I single dispel magic will restore the Full Plate after the battle is over so it can be sold or used.
Many of the Revelations and a lot of class abilities are similar and in alot of cases you won't take both. But I can see uses for having both of them.
| Ice_Deep |
In order to be good at sundering you would have to build an oracle as a "Sunderer". This means taking at least two feats (Improved Sunder and Greater Sunder), you when then have to also focus on having a good CMB, working off a 3/4 BAB. You would then have to contend with the fact that the Hardness of the armor increases based of the magical bonus of the armor and the Hitpoints as well (+10 HP per +1). Or you could spend one feat (Extra Revelation) and be able to do it with a touch attack and the item gets a saving throw.
Even agains normal Full Plate (+9 AC) you can neutralize that +9 AC with a touch.
Well having the proper material (Adamantium) deals with most things hardness, and thus renders the HP less of a issue right? Is there any material/item you can purchase for the relative same cost to provide as much of a benifit as it does? I doubt it. It won't break everything, but for 90% of the times (like non-combat where it almost guarantees success) in many ways makes it 1000% superior to undo artifice.
I'm not saying it is the best ability in the game but it is far from useless.It is kind of like saying that putting ranks in stealth is useless because invisibility exists and can accomplish the same thing.
When did Rogues (the main character he use stealth) get invisibility as a special ability?
Also inviability doesn't render stealth worthless because all invisibility does is add a bonus to your stealth check.
Due to this I think this point is not valid regarding these special abilities.
At 100 Cubic feet per level there are many things that an oracle can effect with one touch in one round, that sunder would be either useless against or would take several rounds to break.I could touch a wagon and reduce it to a pile of lumber, in one action.
The party trapped without equipment in a barred cell. One touch and the entire cell would fall apart.
Iron manacles, snap gone.
Locked in a iron box about to be dropped of a bridge, snap scrap metal.
The out of combat applications of this ability to me blow sunder out of the water. Heck you could even use it to hide things you dont want discovered. Have an ancient relic that the local evil baron is searchign for. Deconstruct it until you are safe then puff dispel magic and its back good as new. Heck each person in the party could carry a peice of it just to make sure the baron doesnt get the whole thing.
Heck at high enough level you could touch a small cottage and reduce it to a pile of construction materials.
I think its a very cool power.
Like I said, plenty of "flavor" but to me they should have combined the Sunder ability and this one or made it have the ability to reconstruct the parts or do something more useful than what it is.
To me it would be like a Rogue having 2 stealth skills, is he going to be put all his points in one, or 1/2 his points in one and 1/2 the other?
The answer is obvious...
Just like it's obvious to not give a character/class 2 special abilities that do 90% the same thing. Sorry, it's dumb. Any character that takes both of these abilities is wasting a special ability 99.9% of the time. Is there any reason you can really justify having both as your first 2 mysteries?
Can you demonstrate any other character/class that has such a limited amount of special abilities to choose from (under 10), gets the same amount or less of choices over his character levels, and has 2 choices almost exactly the same?
I don't think it exists in pathfinder accept this case. It seems to me it's clearly a not to well thought out special ability especially considering it would have a lot more use if it was instantaneousness and not permanent OR had the ability to change weapons/items in minor ways to make the unusable, usable.
How many times has a party killed a giant/big guy with magical armor and if they could resize/change-the-slot of the item they would use it? For me about atleast once every other session (sometimes multiple times over one session). How many times do they wish to break some item? Once or twice a campaign, if that.
I will agree to disagree on it's usefulness. Hopefully maybe paizo will see the error or there ways and FAQ it into a ability that works with sunder and not does the almost exact same thing as it.
Like I said, cool, flavorful? Sure... Useful.. not at all.
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LazarX
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Like I said, plenty of "flavor" but to me they should have combined the Sunder ability and this one or made it have the ability to reconstruct the parts or do something more useful than what it is.
Recombination would be totally against the "Anti-Artificer" theme of this Mystery. I think this extremely powerful "Jericho" ability needs no further enhancement as a capstone.
| Kalyth |
It's not even a capstone ability, you can select it at 11th level and useable a number of times per day equal to your Charisma Modifier, so were talking like 6+ times per day in most cases.
Even with an adamantine weapon Full Plate still has 45 hitpoints. You would still need Improved sunder to avoid an AOA when making a sunder attempt. And you would be using a 3/4 BAB on your CMB against more than likely a FULL BAB target (most full plate users are Full BAB)
Also, no I would not justify having both as my first two mysteries since, I can't take Undo Artifice until 11th level. But I could see someone passing up Erosion Touch and just picking Undo Artifice.
Erosion Touch affects constructs and Golems, things that usually are highly resistant to magical effects. It gives an Oracle a nice touch attack against those creatures. It also give the oracle a nice ability to destroy low hitpoint items reliably. Sundering weapons will generally be pretty easy with Erosion Touch, Heavy armor not so much.
Undo Artifice must target an unliving object, so contructs are out as they are creatures not objects. But undo artifice does far more than sunder, its like sunder on a huge scale. Bypassing any hardness you may encounter. Not only that against an unattended object it an auto-success sunder, regarless of the hitpoints of the item. No door regardless of material or thickness can stop an Oracle with this power. One round and its gone, no attack roll, no damage roll, no saving throw.
Bad guy running up a staircase to get away? Touch, stair case is now a pile of lumber, bad guy falls.
Wooden watch tower with snipers in the top, shooting arrows at the party. Touch, down they come.
The floor of the second story of a building? Undo Artifice and it falls apart. Heck the wall even, easy access.
As for having Undo Artifice transform or resize items. What does that have to do with nature? Doesn't fit thematically at all in my opinion.
| Foghammer |
TL;DR
But I scanned, and I didn't catch any mention of the implications of this line: "...rendering the item into a pile of raw natural materials..."
Raw natural materials, it says. So a +1 longsword would be broken down, not only to constituent parts, but it would go further, becoming a large lump of iron ore (possibly with some carbon additive nearby), leather, wood maybe... It doesn't just take the thing apart, it reverts the materials to a natural state. NATURAL STATE. Very druidy, I think. ("Oh no! Greataxes in my forest?!?" [Poof] Now they're sticks and rocks. All is well.)
I was recently looking this over myself (though I went with a Life Oracle). My first thoughts were "alternative to sundering" and "free raw materials for crafting." Sure, you could just take that +1 longsword, but you really want an iron warhammer. Craft it. You paid half the cost or whatever (via using the longsword as raw materials which would normally cost you gold) and the other half is paid in your own labor.
This has plenty of utility, in my opinion, if you choose to make use of it.
| Ice_Deep |
TL;DR
But I scanned, and I didn't catch any mention of the implications of this line: "...rendering the item into a pile of raw natural materials..."
Raw natural materials, it says. So a +1 longsword would be broken down, not only to constituent parts, but it would go further, becoming a large lump of iron ore (possibly with some carbon additive nearby), leather, wood maybe... It doesn't just take the thing apart, it reverts the materials to a natural state. NATURAL STATE. Very druidy, I think. ("Oh no! Greataxes in my forest?!?" [Poof] Now they're sticks and rocks. All is well.)
I was recently looking this over myself (though I went with a Life Oracle). My first thoughts were "alternative to sundering" and "free raw materials for crafting." Sure, you could just take that +1 longsword, but you really want an iron warhammer. Craft it. You paid half the cost or whatever (via using the longsword as raw materials which would normally cost you gold) and the other half is paid in your own labor.
This has plenty of utility, in my opinion, if you choose to make use of it.
I would use that
I won't use something that I can't make the worthless item into a useful item if Sunder does 90% of the same thing. Thats why I am hoping this gets errata ed to officially something like that.
As it is now (unless I am mistaken) you can't do what you mention because the "spell" for the ability is not instantaneous right?
It's a little vague, and really could use clarification officially it seems.