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How do you actually pull this off?
Lets say the guards are acting like a!!~*!!s and you want to use charm person to try and get them to go away.
But you cant actually cast the spell, because anyone ought to know from bard stories that waving hands around + chanting gibberish = casting spell.
This applies to a lot of non-combat spells too.
It was nice of the wizard to help me see what a great person he is. I'm glad he cast the spell on me, instead of turning me into a toad or frying me to pieces. This just shows what a great guy he is, and why i should be his friend.
- Human's ability for self rationalization is insane enough BEFORE you add in magic. With it.. the boundaries aren't endless but they do go pretty far.
How do you actually pull this off?
Lets say the guards are acting like a!!~*!!s and you want to use charm person to try and get them to go away.
But you cant actually cast the spell, because anyone ought to know from bard stories that waving hands around + chanting gibberish = casting spell.
This applies to a lot of non-combat spells too.
It was nice of the wizard to help me see what a great person he is. I'm glad he cast the spell on me, instead of turning me into a toad or frying me to pieces. This just shows what a great guy he is, and why i should be his friend.
- Human's ability for self rationalization is insane enough BEFORE you add in magic. With it.. the boundaries aren't endless but they do go pretty far.
+1
The three B's
Bluff. Bribe. Brick.
Cast an innocuous spell, like light or silent image to cover your spell cast while a party member distract with chatter or a bar fight. Be subtle, don't ask for money.
Distraction really would be necessary. Casting Charm Person on a guard when he's eyeballing you is grounds for rolling initiative, hoping you roll first *and* that he fails his saving throw.
Even trying to do it at a distance so it's not as noticeable, it's considered a Stealth 0 action. IIRC the Range is Close, so even at 10th level you're going to be able to cast it 50 feet away. So the guard has to make a Perception check DC 5 to hear the spellcasting. At least when they're distracted they take a -5, then if you can create some loud ambient noise that may stack on a -2 penalty, a -5, or whatever the DM deems necessary. Just make sure it isn't so loud that a verbal component is impossible to produce.
Cast it on a guard who isn't paying attention to you and maybe it can count as the 'surprise round'. Other than that, if you want to keep charming high level NPCs (who are going to increasingly guarantee success at noticing your spellcasting), you're going to have to use metamagics.
How a target deals with you when you've Charmed them is secondary when you realize what the consequences of failure are, and that you'll likely try to keep it as secret as possible anyway.
Or find a reason to cast any spell in front of the guard. If he doesn't have Spellcraft, he doesn't know it's Charm Person. You could be Identifying a 'magic item' he's holding, healing his wounds, whatever you can come up with.
Another good reason to take the Reach Feat, +1 spell level to extend the range to medium (100 + 10 feet/level), or +2 spell level to extend it to long range (400 + 40 feet/level).
Also Heighten feat, to make it harder to resist at no extra charge.
How do you actually pull this off?
Lets say the guards are acting like a!!~*!!s and you want to use charm person to try and get them to go away.
But you cant actually cast the spell, because anyone ought to know from bard stories that waving hands around + chanting gibberish = casting spell.
This applies to a lot of non-combat spells too.
It was nice of the wizard to help me see what a great person he is. I'm glad he cast the spell on me, instead of turning me into a toad or frying me to pieces. This just shows what a great guy he is, and why i should be his friend.
- Human's ability for self rationalization is insane enough BEFORE you add in magic. With it.. the boundaries aren't endless but they do go pretty far.
Well i mean, couldnt the person infront of you react fast enough to reach over and slap you or something to interfere with the spell casting? Sound an alarm?
Even if not, couldnt his buddies standing next to him do the same?
Not by the rules. If he is casting he either has a surprise round or he won initiative.
PS:Casters don't normally cast close enough to get hit in the face.
Well i mean, couldn't the person infront of you react fast enough to reach over and slap you or something to interfere with the spell casting? Sound an alarm?Even if not, couldn't his buddies standing next to him do the same?
As listed on page 206-207 Pathfinder PHB. Caster Check 1d20 + Caster level + Class Prime ability bonus (example Int for wizard, Wis for cleric, etc).
Casting the Spell Allows Attack of Opportunity..but..Concentration checks are:
Injury = DC 10 + damage taken + the level of spell your trying to cast.
Grappled = DC 10 + grappler CMB + spell level.
Pinned = (See back of book on Pinned) (magic section in error).
Or to avoid the Attack of Opportunity..with Concentration Checks.
Cast Defensively = DC 15 + (spell level x 2).
Injury = DC 10 + damage taken + the level of spell your trying to cast.
Grappled = DC 10 + grappler CMB + spell level.
Pinned = (See back of book on Pinned) (magic section in error).
I'm going to be playing a Sorceror charmer/summoner in Savage Tide. I was also curious on how to use my charms to the best effect. I'll be keeping my eyes on this thread.
How do you actually pull this off?
Lets say the guards are acting like a!!~*!!s and you want to use charm person to try and get them to go away.
But you cant actually cast the spell, because anyone ought to know from bard stories that waving hands around + chanting gibberish = casting spell.
This applies to a lot of non-combat spells too.
It was nice of the wizard to help me see what a great person he is. I'm glad he cast the spell on me, instead of turning me into a toad or frying me to pieces. This just shows what a great guy he is, and why i should be his friend.
- Human's ability for self rationalization is insane enough BEFORE you add in magic. With it.. the boundaries aren't endless but they do go pretty far.
Well i mean, couldnt the person infront of you react fast enough to reach over and slap you or something to interfere with the spell casting? Sound an alarm?
Even if not, couldnt his buddies standing next to him do the same?
Not by the rules. If he is casting he either has a surprise round or he won initiative.
PS:Casters don't normally cast close enough to get hit in the face.What if the person is already physically touching the caster? E.G. Holding onto him.
And wont the charmed person realise that he has been charmed, after the spell wears off and his attitude returns to normal?
For question number 2: The answer is no. I can tell you I am going to charm you, cast the spell, and if you fail the save then you are still my buddy.
For question number 1 most casters avoid physical combat, but to completely answer the question if the guard has grabbed the caster combat has already been started, and the caster has been grappled. If the caster can make his concentration check then the spell goes off, and if the guard makes his save he is still the caster's friend. That does not mean the guard has to do everything the caster says, but if the player can make a good enough diplomacy or bluff check might be able to get by the guard.
I'm going to be playing a Sorceror charmer/summoner in Savage Tide. I was also curious on how to use my charms to the best effect. I'll be keeping my eyes on this thread.
If you are playing Savage Tide you will run into SR at higher levels. I have not read it, but I know most outsiders get it once your characters get to certain levels. They also have really high saves so prepare to make the DC's as high as possible.
How do you actually pull this off?
Lets say the guards are acting like a&#!*!%s and you want to use charm person to try and get them to go away.
But you cant actually cast the spell, because anyone ought to know from bard stories that waving hands around + chanting gibberish = casting spell.
This applies to a lot of non-combat spells too.
Silent / Still spell.
The target retains memories of the time while charmed. Thats a double edged sword, use it to your advantage. If you plan on making serious use of charm, you should have high bluff/diplomacy anyway.
There are no rules for becoming freinds with a person, in the normal manner, within the rules. That being said, the use of charm person as an "icebreaker" to me seems valid (if somewhat ethically questionable).
To wit, if I were to charm a guard, then explain to him that I was worried he wouldn't listen to my requests if I didn't, but that I do truly want his help and consider him a good person who I would be most inclined to be freinds with, and during the span of the charm I proceed to actually build positive experiences and memories with this person, there is little reason to assume he would become furious with me after the charm expires.
Granted, one of the first things I would ask him is "how would you feel if someone charmed you and then tried to become your freind?". His reaction to that query would be very informative.
Short version: nothing in the rules says you can't attempt to raise the charmed persons normal attitude while they are currently freindly under the charm.
There is one thing to remember.
The guard (while your friend), will not let you do anything that he would not let his friends normal do.
So, If the guard is the kind of person, who would let his friend slip into the castle... cool.
If the guard is the kind of person, who would NOT let his friend slip into the castle... well, your still stuck outside. But he will talk to you in a friendly manner now.
The three B's, Bluff, Bribe, Brick.
Also Heighten feat, to make it harder to resist at no extra charge.
I don't think Heighten Spell works that way.
My last sorceror was a very diplomatic type -- lots of bluff, lots of diplomacy, lots of charisma-boosting stuff. Maxed-out Bluff checks (including viper familiar) on people who think you're their friend already; I convinced an assassin we knocked out that I was part of his secret back-up team and we should hurry back to base to report the failure and get reinforcements...
Definitely Still Spell and Silent Spell. They help so much in those roleplaying encounters where you would rather not be spotted casting a spell.
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At higher levels, there is also a pair of advanced feats in the APG: Minor and Major Spell Expertise, which allows you to cast a particular spell you know (in this case, "Charm Person" or "Hypnosis") as a spell-like ability, which avoids a lot of problems of conventional casting.
If you're going to play a spellcaster who specializes in charms, I would go for wizard over sorcerer - at higher levels, most of the things you are running into have SR or high will saves (or immunities) and being a wizard gives you more options as well as higher level spells.
Heighten spell is your friend as well, and in fact I think it's pretty much essential for an enchantment-focused caster, since it allows spells like "Charm Person" to scale with you as you level.
A 7th level Wizard, Enchantment Specialist, with an 18 INT and a 14 CHA, Heighten Spell, Spell Focus (enchant), Greater Spell Focus (enchant):
Can cast Charm Person as a 4th level spell, Save DC goes up to 20. At 14th level he can cast it as a 7th level spell at DC 23 (likely more if he's bumped his INT up or drunk a potion of Owl's Wisdom)
On top of that, an Enchanter Specialist gets the "Enchanting Smile" bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff checks, which helps make up for the fact that neither is a wizard class skill.
The person to really ask this question to is your DM, as there is a ton of DM discretion involved in the adjudication of charm person and similar spells. He or she may adjudicate it somewhat differently than I or anyone else here would. Never hurts to run a few hypotheticals like this past your DM so you aren't surprised the first time you try one in game. Of course he might say your character just has to learn through experience, but if so maybe you can have your character seek out more experienced wizards for advice.
That said, the scenario you require is a tough one for charm person that you should actually try to avoid. Casting such a spell in public, in front of potential witnesses, is bad practice, and could get you killed.
Here are a few ways to do it better.
1. Get your target alone, away from others.
2. Have others in your party distract him before you begin casting - try to avoid having to roll initiative.
3. Be ready with a contingency plan in case he makes his save
4. If you can't avoid the initiative roll, make sure he can't get to you and attack before you cast, either with use of terrain, other characters interposing, or just distance.
5. Once you have him charmed, be careful in what you ask him to do - try to avoid having the DM order the opposed Charisma check.
6. Be nice to him to the extent possible.
7. Remember the spell has a duration, and most people resent being charmed, so make sure you aren't vulnerable to retaliation when it wears off.
Anyway, those are a few thought. Charm Person is a powerful tool, but not an autowin. The smart player will get a lot of mileage out of it. The clumsy player will make a lot of enemies and likely get dead.