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First, I get the love and desire for new classes. So for this exercise I am proposing that instead of 3 new classes, what if Paizo went with only one? What would you want them to fill the freed up space with?
For my exercise I am going to pretend they went with the Ninja.
Instead of the Samurai and the Gunslinger Paizo could have included . .
Ninja clans (with sidebars describing where they could be located on Golarian), special ninja weapons, cool ninja alchemical items, ninja npcs ranging from 1st through 20th level, archetypes for the ninja (if it were a base class), a gamemastery section devoted to the ninja and how to best incorporate them into your games, and a section describing ninja and their roles outside of oriental settings. So instead of 3 classes we get 1 with a lot more support beyond the class description.
Mass combat rules - not your typical mass combat rules but rules to help a gamemaster handle PCs in a mass combat situation.
Fighting Schools (with sidebars describing where and how they fit into the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.
I hate that I feel a couple disclaimers are in order. But these messageboards have changed a lot in a few short years.
I know that the UC class count is set. This is an exercise.
I understand that you might not agree with my premise, this thread isn't for you. Feel free to start a "why Paizo should have put 10 new classes in UC" thread.
All that said, what do you think would have worked as substitution material for a couple of the classes in UC? Maybe the version of UC that you prefer only has one class, but it's the Gunslinger or Samurai.
Tam
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Ok, personally I am happy with what they did. But I also personally would have put the Samurai and Ninja in the Asian source book myself. I know why they didn't though.
So in my case if they did just one it would have been the Gunslinger. If they did that I would have liked it to be a new base class and then offer archetypes for, sniper(rifle specialist), pirate(yes the iconic pirate with cutlass and pistol), and maybe a bombs specialist(yeah I know alchemist sorta covers this). If they went that route then I would say they would need a larger area on gun's, gun powder devices and the effects it would have on a game.
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Ok, personally I am happy with what they did. But I also personally would have put the Samurai and Ninja in the Asian source book myself. I know why they didn't though.
So in my case if they did just one it would have been the Gunslinger. If they did that I would have liked it to be a new base class and then offer archetypes for, sniper(rifle specialist), pirate(yes the iconic pirate with cutlass and pistol), and maybe a bombs specialist(yeah I know alchemist sorta covers this). If they went that route then I would say they would need a larger area on gun's, gun powder devices and the effects it would have on a game.
Thank you. That is a perfect example of the kind of ideas I was hoping to get from people.
Thank you very much.
Tam
To be honest, i would be happier if they turned the 3 classes into 10 level prestige classes.
Then fill the rest of the book with skills, feats, and give build idea on how to turn my Fighter into a gunslinger. The rogue into a sniper or ninja. The monk into a martial artiest. The cavalier into a samurai. The Ranger into a Hermit.
Ok in my opinion, gunslinger stays, but as a alternate class of the alchemist (posted my ideas for this elsewhere)
Can the ninja and the samurai.
Add in more orders for cavalier (samurai can be made with cav)
Add in more rouge talents (including a few for the ninja, but kill the ki stuff)(ninja can be made with rogues)
Ninja and Samurai should just be simple archetypes at the best.
yes and of course, pages and pages of fighter only feats, just to annoy those people that dont like them!! (snark snark)
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Ok, personally I am happy with what they did. But I also personally would have put the Samurai and Ninja in the Asian source book myself. I know why they didn't though.
So in my case if they did just one it would have been the Gunslinger. If they did that I would have liked it to be a new base class and then offer archetypes for, sniper(rifle specialist), pirate(yes the iconic pirate with cutlass and pistol), and maybe a bombs specialist(yeah I know alchemist sorta covers this). If they went that route then I would say they would need a larger area on gun's, gun powder devices and the effects it would have on a game.
Thank you. That is a perfect example of the kind of ideas I was hoping to get from people.
Thank you very much.
Tam
So because I am so perfect, does this mean you are going to join my cult and worship my now? :)
All bow and pray to the Dark_Mistress!
Since the new alternate classes are going to be at most 10% of the book (including support feats, etc) it is possible that the other 90% of the book will have many things of interest.
I'm all for mass combat, fighting styles, more stance feats, more weapons. I wouldn't mind expanded critical hit tables, like warhammer or rolemaster, although the critical hit deck does fill that role fairly well.
I also want to see a Pirate archetype.
Here I have suggestion non-magic enhancements would be nice.
Acid wash (+4 save vs acid, rust, disintegration)
Alchemical chamber (Add Alchemical flask to dam)
Armor razors (Deals 1d6 Slashing)
Armor spikes (Deals 1d6 Piercing)
Barbed (2 pts Dam 1d4 rnds addition hit extend duration)
Bashing (Bash deal dam as if two sizes larger (1d3=1d6 and 1d4=1d8)
Basket hilt (+4 vs Disarm, +1 AC with Combat Expertise)
Bayonet (Deals 1d6 x2 Ranged -8 to hit and 1/2 incerment)
Bladeshatter (When any non axe, hammer or mace fails a attack roll by 10 or more the weapon tke 1d8 dam by passes hardness)
Blood groove (Casues 1 bleed dam every round)
Bow stablizers (+1 To hit)
Bowstring silencer (Make bow totally silent but reducing its range increment by 10ft/2in)
Buoyancy (-1 Check pen when swimming)
Camouflage (+4 to Stealth)
Caster armor (-5% Spell fail)
Crossbow shield (A small shield is attached to the crossbow +1 AC)
Crossbow/Musket scope (Reduce range penality by 1)
Deceptive (+4 Sleight of hand)
Dwarven forged armor (+2 AC -1 Check pen +10% spell fail)
Dwarvencraft weapon (Increase dam by 1 level +2 Hardness, saves, +10 HP )
Elven craft bow (Functions like a club when use as a melee weapon)
Elven forged armor (+1 Max dex -1 Check pen -10% spell fail)
Embossed (+2 to Gather info if stolen)
Enhanced bracing (+2 Dam set againt a charge)
Extended chain (+4 to Trip flails,chain, and whips and +5ft/1in to spiked chain and whips)
Extended Haft (+5ft/1in Reach)
Fast-Donning/Quick release Straps (No increased check penalty, -1 AC, Standard action to remove armor)
Fire retardant I (Fire resistance 5)
Fire retardant II (Fire resistance 10)
Folded weapon (+4 to Hardness)
Forestwarden Shroud (Negating the effect that undergrowth has on the wearer's Acrobatics and Stealth)
Grounded (Electical restance 5)
Heavy (+2 HP +1 Dam -2 to hit)
Heavy pommel (+2 to Parry)
Interlocking Plate (+2 to AC when moving no more the 5ft/1in)
Iron Sight crossbow/musket (+1 To hit)
Light (+2 To hit -1 Dam -1 HP/Hardness)
Lightweight (Lower category of armor type by 1, +5ft/1in movement, and reduce AC, check pen by 1)
Lined (Cold resistance 5)
Mercurial (+1 Dam)
Muffling (+4 to Stealth -2 to other dex skills)
Ornate/Savage (+1 to +5 either /or Diplomacy, Intimidate)
Penetrating (+4 to Sunder)
Percise fitting (-1 to check pen +1 max dex +1 Bluff and Diplomacy)
Perfect balance (+1 AC when taking total defence)
Perfect weighted (+5ft/1in thrown range incerment)
Pistol (Add a pistol to the weapon 2d4 x3 Range 5ft/1in)
Quick quiver (+1 to Initive when using a bow)
Razor sharp/Honed (+1 to critacal threat range)
Reinforced (25% chance of negating any precision damage)
Resilient (+5 HP)
Riding Straps (+1 to Ride)
Rifiled Barrel (+1 To hit +10ft/2in range incerment)
Rusted (-1 Dam, -1 HP, -2 Hardness, -2 save vs rust plus rust disease)
Segmented (+1 Max dex)
Serrated (2 pts Dam 1d4 rnds addition hit extend duration)
Shield blade/axe (Deals +1d4 slashing dam )
Shield sheath (Holds one light weapon drawing the weapon in the shield sheath is a free action and Free feint attempt)
Shield spikes (Deals +1d4 piercing dam)
Spidersilk (Make armor usable by monks, rouge, and ninjas)
Spring-loaded dagger (1d4/19-20x2 can launch Range 5ft/1in +5 to Sleight of hand)
Stability (+4 vs Bull rush +10% spell fail -1 max dex)
Teather (+4 vs disarm and if disarmed you do not drop weapon)
Tempered armor I (DR 1/-)
Tempered armor II (DR 2/-)
Tempered armor III (DR 3/-)
Tempered armor IV (DR 4/-)
Tempered armor V (DR 5/-)
Thin blade (+2 to diarm and bluff -2 dam)
Thunderhead (Add a blackpower charge to weapon +2d4 Dam)
Weapon pair (Reduce two weapon penality by 1 a matched pair of a normal and light weapon)
Vital coverage I (+2 AC vs crit effects)
Vital coverage II (+4 AC vs crit effects)
How about the artificer from Tome of Secrets expand on their technology list their are some great examples in World of warcraft magic and mayhem books.
Creative Director
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Interesting idea... but there's going to be a samurai and a ninja and a gunslinger in Ultimate Combat. That's not really up for a vote.
But the book is hardly ONLY about samurais, ninjas, and gunslingers. There IS gonna be a lot more in there than these three new alternate classes, never fear. Even if you hate all three classes (and even if that hate carries over to the final version of the classes after we process the playtest feedback), the bulk of the book itself will be about other things.
Something about how to use skills in combat would be nice, including Knowledge skills (tactical insight) and less used skills (can't think of any at the moment...Profession: Woodcutter against plant creatures?)
Their is a book that has things like that it called professions by joshua raynack. I do agree that it would be nice to have the the book.
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Interesting idea... but there's going to be a samurai and a ninja and a gunslinger in Ultimate Combat. That's not really up for a vote.
But the book is hardly ONLY about samurais, ninjas, and gunslingers. There IS gonna be a lot more in there than these three new alternate classes, never fear. Even if you hate all three classes (and even if that hate carries over to the final version of the classes after we process the playtest feedback), the bulk of the book itself will be about other things.
I understand that. This thread is simply my attempt to be critical of class glutt while also being constructive. There are always, after all, future books to sway you on.
So says this slave.
Tam
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So, now I will pretend that the Samurai is the only class being published in UC. They could fill the space left by the absence of Gunslinger and Ninja with . . .
Samurai cultural details (not necessarily Tian Xia information, but more generic samurai stuff but with a sidebar that provides some Golarion specifics) like their relationship with their master, an honor system, different flavors of samurai based on weapons and tactics (here I am thinking samurai archers, samurai with ploearms and the like), details on samurai analogs from other oriental lands, detailed samurai equipment.
Again, instead of 3 classes, 1 class with a lot more support than the basic class description.
Tam
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Creative Director
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So, now I will pretend that the Samurai is the only class being published in UC. They could fill the space left by the absence of Gunslinger and Ninja with . . .
Samurai cultural details (not necessarily Tian Xia information, but more generic samurai stuff but with a sidebar that provides some Golarion specifics) like their relationship with their master, an honor system, different flavors of samurai based on weapons and tactics (here I am thinking samurai archers, samurai with ploearms and the like), details on samurai analogs from other oriental lands, detailed samurai equipment.
Again, instead of 3 classes, 1 class with a lot more support than the basic class description.
Tam
Problem with that is that if we were to spend a lot of room talking about cultural details for samurai... that's a significant part of a rules book that's just reprinting stuff you could get from any history book. And if we were to instead make something up based on real world history, but make that cultural stuff generic, then we're just spinning our wheels since we'd just have to redo all of that anyway when we get to them in Tian-Xia books.
The fact that we want to make our rulebooks world-neutral is a REALLY tricky thing to dance around in a lot of cases, since "world-neutral" also sort of means "no long digressions into real-world history." The RPG book line is not the place for that kind of content.
Some of these are planned for the book, I believe, others don't have a prayer of being included. For the purposes of the exercise, however:
Ninja and Samurai are implemented via the superior archetype method rather than the alternate class method.
Gunslinger is gone. Locker-in-an-abyssal-trench-style gone.
A new base class, the martial artist, is included instead and focuses on unarmed butt-kicking without the trappings of the monk's supernatural powers. Archetypes expand the concept immediately by leveraging the martial arts/fighting styles also contained in the book to showcase the differences in (to use real-world examples) boxing vs. karate vs. kung-fu.
Optional/alternate rules for called shots, hit locations, & armor as DR. More importantly, the text includes discussions on coversions of core material to adapt these rules, explanations on the impact they have on the game in play and in encounter design.
Fighting styles, or at least how to work the combination of class abilities & feats into emulating fighting styles. Also, guidelines for determining the factors that lead to certain weapons, armor, or fighting styles being preferred in certain parts of a game world vs. others. I know this is tricky for a non-Golarion specific RPG book, but think of something along the lines of Society write ups in the Gamemastery Guide "Creating a World" chapter.
Mass combat, from the window-dressing focus on the PCs viewpoint to the PCs as generals guiding forces on the battlefield tactical levels. (Yeah, I'm a cake and eat it too kind of guy.) Include siege combat and the sacking of settlements.
Firearms. (Yes, despite my loathing of them in fantasy rpgs...) Stamp 'em in big bold OPTIONAL borders but have an extensive discussion on the impact that they can have on a game world, play styles, and characters (well beyond the few paragraphs they got in the GG). Provide rules for different eras (Renaissance, colonial, industrial eras, etc.)
Most importantly - a big 'ole "How to spice up combat" chapter. Guidelines leveraging decades' worth of game design goodness on how to make combats exciting to run and participate in beyond the simple rolling of die. Or, what extras or subsystems to include to help facillitate this.
Expanded masterwork weapon, armor, & item rules. 'Cause some of us still hate the Christmas Tree effect.
Vehicle combat - land- and water-based.
Aerial combat
Underwater combat
Duels, gladitorial, & tournament combat. I see these more as tweaks & guidelines rather than different rules, but talk about what works & what doesn't.
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Interesting idea... but there's going to be a samurai and a ninja and a gunslinger in Ultimate Combat. That's not really up for a vote.
But the book is hardly ONLY about samurais, ninjas, and gunslingers. There IS gonna be a lot more in there than these three new alternate classes, never fear. Even if you hate all three classes (and even if that hate carries over to the final version of the classes after we process the playtest feedback), the bulk of the book itself will be about other things.
Understood. I would keep the Gunslinger. I would make Samurai and Ninja Archtypes. In fact I would add a few archtypes for each class. I might make a few alternate classes for things that really needed them (Blight Druid comes to mind, though I know that belongs in Ultimate Magic).
Ok, personally I am happy with what they did. But I also personally would have put the Samurai and Ninja in the Asian source book myself. I know why they didn't though.
So in my case if they did just one it would have been the Gunslinger. If they did that I would have liked it to be a new base class and then offer archetypes for, sniper(rifle specialist), pirate(yes the iconic pirate with cutlass and pistol), and maybe a bombs specialist(yeah I know alchemist sorta covers this). If they went that route then I would say they would need a larger area on gun's, gun powder devices and the effects it would have on a game.
I would have likened to see the gunslinger as an archetype that could span across several different classes. While it is built off the fighter class, it'd make sense to see a derivative appear under the rogue, bard, ranger, or even a paladin if one wants to make a stretch.
Unless we should be expecting feat taxes that will allow the other classes to get a taste w/o getting the complete advantage that the alternate base class would receive.
One of my favorite books from the 3.5 days is The Player's Guide to Arcanis. There's a section called Combat Styles of Onara (beginning on pg. 211) where there's an interesting take on a 5 level Prestige Class where you join a combat school style. Each school can easily fit into the 5 levels presented as 1) Trainee, 2) Novice, 3) Adept, 4) Expert, and 5) Master. Then the type of schools are presented and each of them have additional prereqs to enter those schools based on skill ranks, feats, weapon styles and/or region.
Their Weapons & Equipment chapter #7 is also interesting to peruse as well -- especially their take on flintlocks and scatterguns.
I've always been wanting to find a way to integrate these, so now with Ultimate Combat coming out, I'm hoping that some of the inspirations found there could trickle their way in. The chapters in question are designated as OPEN CONTENT under their OGL declaration pg. 373 (aside from the usual proper terms that are specific to their campaign setting).
I would have likened to see the gunslinger as an archetype that could span across several different classes. While it is built off the fighter class, it'd make sense to see a derivative appear under the rogue, bard, ranger, or even a paladin if one wants to make a stretch.
Unless we should be expecting feat taxes that will allow the other classes to get a taste w/o getting the complete advantage that the alternate base class would receive.
You mean like the Amateur Gunslinger feat that allows any character to have Grit and take the various Grit/Deed feats? Granted, the ones in the playtest document are not comprehensive, but it wouldn't be too difficult to expand the selection (and I'm assuming there will probably be more included in Ultimate Combat).
You mean like the Amateur Gunslinger feat that allows any character to have Grit and take the various Grit/Deed feats? Granted, the ones in the playtest document are not comprehensive, but it wouldn't be too difficult to expand the selection (and I'm assuming there will probably be more included in Ultimate Combat).I would have likened to see the gunslinger as an archetype that could span across several different classes. While it is built off the fighter class, it'd make sense to see a derivative appear under the rogue, bard, ranger, or even a paladin if one wants to make a stretch.
Unless we should be expecting feat taxes that will allow the other classes to get a taste w/o getting the complete advantage that the alternate base class would receive.
Essentially, yes.
For this exercise, I'd like to see just a Gunslinger class and/or class variants.
I would of course like the usual gun-related items and feats.
But I would also like a GM's section for guidelines on
- how to work the concept in an existing standard fantasy campaign
- how to use this class and related concepts in part of building a steampunk and/or other alt-history fantasy campaign
I don't feel that need for Ninja and Samurai because the gaming world already has a number of excellent guidelines and systems on "Far East" style gaming and gameplay. Less exists for the fantasy gun user in one place, save for those that are very, very setting specific (e.g., Iron Kingdoms).
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I'm not a mind reader, but I get the impression this round is a lot less set in stone than past ones.
The classes feel much more "Alpha" test than "Beta" test. The APG classes and the Magus seemed to know exactly what they wanted to be, and were just put out for fine tuning. These seem more like "We want these three things, and we don't agree on how we want these things, so let's make something very close to an existing template, run it up the flag pole, and see who salutes.
Samurai as a cavalier works fine I think, with just a little fine tuning (allowing the mount to be traded for a bonded weapon) and would still feel different than a cavalier.
The gunslinger...I love the idea but I think you have to decide on the backstory and work the mechanics forward. I don't think anyone would be opposed to gunslingers being the exclusive keepers of how to make safe gunpowder and manufacture safe guns, the campaign setting basically says it is a tightly kept secret, and it wouldn't be hard to make it so using guns untrained meant could blow up on you.
I think they really have to narrow it to avoid exploit, and I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. I would start off with fewer special features early to avoid level dipping. First level you learn how to make a single shot pistol that will blow up if anyone else tries to use it and gunpowder, and that is it. Add more features as you level, but make them very class exclusive. I love the idea, but I think the execution is muddled by lack of a singular vision.
The ninja...I would almost make multiple templates to have a ninja monk template, a ninja ranger template, and a ninja rogue template. Have them be different clans, and just let each template reflect a different clan. It seems like a base class ninja isn't going to make anyone happy, but several templates could allow people to find the one they want without risking power creep, since none would have "all" of the ninja abilities.