Elemental Touch (APG)

[Kamelguru]

One of my friends play a magus, and he has the APG spell Elemental Touch.

What he and the GM came to disagree upon last night was if Elemental Touch got overwritten if you cast another spell, like if you were holding a charge of a touch spell.

Unlike every other touch spell in the game, Elemental Touch has a range of "Personal" and Target: You instead of "creature touched".

Elemental Touch Description wrote:

Upon completing the casting of this spell, elemental energy infuses your hands.

Choose an energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You gain a melee touch attack causing 1d6 points of damage of that energy type, along with a special effect described below.

This leads me to understand that unlike holding the charge of the basic touch spells, you instead gain a new feature, which functions independently of other spells.

Though to be sure, I'd like to get an official ruling on this.

[concerro]

Kamelguru wrote:

One of my friends play a magus, and he has the APG spell Elemental Touch.

What he and the GM came to disagree upon last night was if Elemental Touch got overwritten if you cast another spell, like if you were holding a charge of a touch spell.

Unlike every other touch spell in the game, Elemental Touch has a range of "Personal" and Target: You instead of "creature touched".

Elemental Touch Description wrote:

Upon completing the casting of this spell, elemental energy infuses your hands.

Choose an energy type: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. You gain a melee touch attack causing 1d6 points of damage of that energy type, along with a special effect described below.

This leads me to understand that unlike holding the charge of the basic touch spells, you instead gain a new feature, which functions independently of other spells.

Though to be sure, I'd like to get an official ruling on this.

source=PRD/Magic Section:

Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Edit:to clarify. I just posted the general rule which always stands unless another rule "specifically" says otherwise.

[concerro]

After going back and reading the entire spell I see your point.

What we have is a conflict between touch spells, and the duration rules.

edit:for clarification.

[Kalyth]

concerro wrote:

After going back and reading the entire spell I see your point.

What we have is a conflict between touch spells, and the duration rules.

edit:for clarification.

The conflict I see is whether Elemental touch is in fact a Touch Spell. Or is it a spell that alters the caster and gives him an ability for X duration.

As writen Elemental Touch is not a Touch Spell. You never hold it's charge in fact you cant. A charged touch spell can be held up to 1 hour if I remember correctly. Elemental Touch is cast and it lasts X long.

[Magicdealer]

Note the spell is measured in rounds, and not total attacks. The section on touch spells and holding the charge on page 216 CRB talks about making touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged.

Since this spell is not discharged, and does not have a duration of instant, I would treat it more along the lines of a magic weapon or bull's strength spell. It's not a touch spell, it's a buff spell. You don't get to make an attack with it the turn you cast the spell, but you don't discharge it on a successful hit. You get to keep on using it for the full duration.

It is not a touch attack because it does not have a target: creature touched.

[Kamelguru]

Also, comparing the power of the spell with other touch spells of same or lower levels:

Elemental Touch: Lv2. 1d6 damage and a minor effect that allows a save, short duration.

Chill Touch: First level, same damage and duration, save or 1 str damage, save or panic for undead.

Shocking Grasp: First level, scales to 5d6 damage, +3 to hit targets wearing/wielding metal. No save.

Touch of Gracelessness: First level, 1d6+(1/2lv) dex damage, additional effects restricting movement.

Touch of Idiocy: Lv2. 1d6 in all mental stats. No save. Long duration.

Ghoul Touch: Save or paralyzed, 10' radius fort save or be sickened.

[Russ Taylor]

Elemental touch, while usable by other class, was designed with alchemists in mind. Alchemists can't target other creatures with their extracts, so rather than being a touch spell, it gives the caster a damaging touch attack. Hope that clears it up a bit?

So yep, it's a buff spell. You don't get an attack that first round. You could cast another spell (drink another extract) while it was in effect on you.

[Happler]

Better to think of Elemental touch not as a touch spell, but a spell that gives the caster a "weapon" of a touch attack. Kind of reminds me of flame blade, but instead of a scimitar like thing that allows touch attacks, it is just a touch attack.

[Russ Taylor]

Happler wrote:

Better to think of Elemental touch not as a touch spell, but a spell that gives the caster a "weapon" of a touch attack. Kind of reminds me of flame blade, but instead of a scimitar like thing that allows touch attacks, it is just a touch attack.

Or produce flame, which lets you touch as well as throw.

[james maissen]

Kamelguru wrote:

One of my friends play a magus, and he has the APG spell Elemental Touch.

What he and the GM came to disagree upon last night was if Elemental Touch got overwritten if you cast another spell, like if you were holding a charge of a touch spell.

Elemental touch is not a touch spell, and as such the rules on holding the charge do not apply.

Casting another spell while affected by fireshield for example does not dispel the fireshield spell.

Likewise touching an enemy does not discharge the spell entirely as it would for a touch spell.

-James