| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So readying allows you to take a standard action but not a full action. The charge as a standard action is available if only a standard action is available, which in this case it is. I call it legal - it's Lawful AND Good!
I don't agree with you, because I see letting it function as a standard action does not turn it into a standard action (and let it operate as a normal standard action). Charge is a full round action that you can use - under certain circumstances - as if it were a standard action. IMO.
But again.. why not just DELAY? You'll still get the full charge and be finished with this non-sense.
|
...nothing is stopping you from using DELAY to change your initiative count to effectively function as if you "readied" a Charge action.
I just wanted to point out that a delayed action is not the same as a readied action in one very important way with regards to this discussion. A delay does not allow you to interrupt another's action like a readied action does.
If the purpose of the readied action is to interrupt, or to wait for a certain set of circumstances to trigger, a delayed action will not work in place of a readied action. A delayed action could only happen before or after the triggering action. Your charge would occur on the init count before or after...
That is a significant difference IMO...
Cheers
So readying allows you to take a standard action but not a full action. The charge as a standard action is available if only a standard action is available, which in this case it is. I call it legal - it's Lawful AND Good!I don't agree with you, because I see letting it function as a standard action does not turn it into a standard action (and let it operate as a normal standard action). Charge is a full round action that you can use - under certain circumstances - as if it were a standard action. IMO.
Can you explain why those circumstances for using the partial charge do NOT apply?
When you ready actions, you can only ready up to a standard action:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
If only a standard action is available:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
There is nothing here to imply that the standard action charge cannot be taken as the standard action of a readied action. The only stipulation for using charge as a standard action is that when you want to charge you only have a standard action to use. It doesn't say these have to be because of an imposed condition, for example, it just says in effect "if you don't have a full round action available when you want to charge, you can do this instead."
But again.. why not just DELAY? You'll still get the full charge and be finished with this non-sense.
You can. But readying an action allows you to do something else as well and doesn't lose you your initiative place. It's like the two fighters slowly circling each other, looking for an opening, they are moving, and readying actions to deal with the other's attack. For example, both could be just out of range, and readying an action to step in and strike to deny the other the +2 bonus if they try and charge the ten-foot gap between them.
This is a good point to remind people that the rule IS sort of ambiguous, and there is no point in arguing or acting like it's clear cut. We've FAQ'd it, and now we should discuss it. But at no point should that discussion get heated, because we don't actually know which interpretation is correct!
It hasn't deteriorated yet, but I'd like to nip that in the bid.
That is a significant difference IMO...
Very true.. the interrupt part didn't even occur to me until after..
@Dabbler
As far as charging goes.. its very powerful that's the reason its so limited. Many, many things have to go right in order for you to charge. I disagree with letting it fly on a readied action.
Do you think it would be balanced to let every NPC baddie fly and attack at the PCs interrupting their every action? Sometimes it pays to look at it from the other side of the coin.
I can only reiterate that Charge is a Full Round action (which can't be readied). And under certain circumstances it can be used as if it were a standard action. It does not gain the property "standard action" temporarily that allows it to function as one. If you treat this clause as such, you are then opening a can of worms because now all things that can modify standard actions can be applied to this partial charge.
Charge is not a standard action and never will be. Its a balance issue.
Rhino Charge specifically calls out that you are now able to ready a charge. If you were already able to ready such an action... would this be needed? Furthermore, Rhino Charge still does not state that it reduces Charge to a Standard Action, just that you can ready it and places restrictions on the distance you can travel.
@Dabbler
As far as charging goes.. its very powerful that's the reason its so limited.
You get to move up to twice your movement, gain a +2 bonus to hit and take a -2 to AC. Sorry, I fail to see that as 'powerful'.
Many, many things have to go right in order for you to charge.
... you need a straight uninterrupted line to your target and they need to be within move range but greater than ten feet away.
I disagree with letting it fly on a readied action.
I can see, but I fail to understand how the rules actually preclude this, or why anyone would want them to.
Do you think it would be balanced to let every NPC baddie fly and attack at the PCs interrupting their every action? Sometimes it pays to look at it from the other side of the coin.
Yes, I do think it is balanced. After all, you can counter-charge the charger. I can only think of two circumstances in which you might apply it:
To attack a caster as he is casting a spell.To block an attacker from reaching another person.
I can only reiterate that Charge is a Full Round action (which can't be readied).
Except, as clearly stated, when it isn't. If only a standard action is available, a charge can be used as a standard action. Readying only allows the readying of a standard action, making only a standard action available. The two circumstances seem perfectly tailored for one another.
And under certain circumstances it can be used as if it were a standard action.
Like ... when you need to ready an action? I mean, how many circumstances are there where you don't have a full round action to charge in but would want to charge?
It does not gain the property "standard action" temporarily that allows it to function as one. If you treat this clause as such, you are then opening a can of worms because now all things that can modify standard actions can be applied to this partial charge.
Such as?
Charge is not a standard action and never will be. Its a balance issue.
You have not made a case for it being unbalanced. I'm willing to hear one, but you haven't stated one. You get to move and deliver one attack ... big deal. It allows melee combat types something more and flexible in what they can do - and the last time I looked, no-one called them over-powered, quite the opposite in fact!
Rhino Charge specifically calls out that you are now able to ready a charge. If you were already able to ready such an action... would this be needed? Furthermore, Rhino Charge still does not state that it reduces Charge to a Standard Action, just that you can ready it and places restrictions on the distance you can travel.
I can't comment as I do not have the text for Rhino Charge. But to me the "a limited charge can be made if you only have a standard action available" and "readying an action can only ready a standard action or less" mesh together, because in a readied action you only have a standard action available which is exactly the circumstance laid out for the limited version of charge.
So readying allows you to take a standard action but not a full action. The charge as a standard action is available if only a standard action is available, which in this case it is. I call it legal - it's Lawful AND Good!
Nope. The devil's in the details.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge...
You weren't only able to take a standard action on your turn; you had the full normal set of actions and chose to spend a standard at that time on readying. At the time your readied action goes off, you've already spent a standard action that turn.
If you choose to have the stance that charge is underpowered that is your view. I disagree. I find a double move and an attack action to be quite powerful.
Paizo seems to be in agreement because they created the feat called Rhino Charge.
I can't comment as I do not have the text for Rhino Charge.
Interesting.. the feat information is readily available on the internet - if you type in "rhino charge feat" into google. Also.. Alexander Kilcoyne laid it out earlier in the thread. But, I'll post it here for you so you can see for yourself.
Rhino Charge [Combat]Your charges are both violent and unpredictable.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.
Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you to move twice your speed.
I don't see a reason for this feat to exist if Charge worked in the way you're saying.
Now if the discussion moved to the topic of "is this a good idea or not" then that would be completely different. But, to answer the question - if you're using the base rule set then you can't ready a charge.
EDIT: I am of the opinion that RAW says readying a charge is not possible. HOWEVER...
I'm in Dabbler's corner. He's made pretty solid points IMO. Charging isn't a huge deal - in fact, I rarely see people at my table use it.
RAW aside, I don't think I would be able to tell my players that the barbarian could not charge the first bugbear to break through the door because he couldn't ready a charge. It adds a level of tactical decision making for melee types, as well, which is never a bad thing in my mind.
Wizards have to wrack their brain each morning to choose spells for the day at the beginning of the day, but fighters have to wrack their brains throughout each combat to choose the best tactics. Casters have far more options long-term than melee combatants. No one can deny that.
Regardless of RAW/RAI, this will always remain a house rule in games I run. This may not further the debate, but adding my name to the imaginary petition to have it "fixed" is enough.
So readying allows you to take a standard action but not a full action. The charge as a standard action is available if only a standard action is available, which in this case it is. I call it legal - it's Lawful AND Good!Nope. The devil's in the details.
You weren't only able to take a standard action on your turn; you had the full normal set of actions and chose to spend a standard at that time on readying. At the time your readied action goes off, you've already spent a standard action that turn.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge...
I can argue my turn is when the readied action is triggered. Don't get me wrong, I do see your point, but it's a pedantic one of very precise wording over substance and intent. Definitely one for FAQ. We need this clarified.
Edit: Thanks for the vote of confidence, Foghammer. I think it is the way that the partial charge was meant to work - it's intuitive, straightforward and supported by everything I can see.
The existence of Rhino's Charge is evidence of intent. You can not charge as a standard action unless restricted by to a standard action due to events beyond your control.
Now as for a house rule I would allow a charge on a standard action, but no pounce to go with it even if the ability is normally available.
PS:Partial Charge no longer exist.
I know people, myself included, sometimes skim post so:
Rhino Charge [Combat]
Your charges are both violent and unpredictable.
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.
Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you to move twice your speed.
I would like to point out that there is no wording anywhere in the rulebook which states that charging is a standard action (special conditions or not).
If you read the charge entry closely, you'll see that it says that charging is a full-round action. It goes on to say that if you are limited to a standard action on your turn you can still take this *full round action* but only move up to your speed rather than double. This is an exception to the general use. If it had actually said anywhere that you could, under special circumstances, *charge as a standard action* at any point, I could see the point others are trying to make but it just isn't there.
Since charging is a full round action, it cannot be readied by anyone - including characters who are slowed.
I can argue my turn is when the readied action is triggered. Don't get me wrong, I do see your point, but it's a pedantic one of very precise wording over substance and intent. Definitely one for FAQ. We need this clarified.
You can argue it, but I'm afraid a literal reading precludes this. The language used is that you are readying to take an action after your turn but before the next turn.
Now, I agree that this is not the greatest rule in the world, but combined with Rhino Charge I am thinking that there is no Readying a charge. And that's a shame. I will probably end up houseruling that.
Bear in mind: You can still ready an action to intercept an enemy, then during his movement put yourself in a position where he must leave your threatened space to continue his movement. Sure, you lose out on the benefits of a charge, but you still get to force an AoO. It's an option that might crop up.
I would like to point out that there is no wording anywhere in the rulebook which states that charging is a standard action (special conditions or not).
If you read the charge entry closely, you'll see that it says that charging is a full-round action. It goes on to say that if you are limited to a standard action on your turn you can still take this *full round action* but only move up to your speed rather than double. This is an exception to the general use. If it had actually said anywhere that you could, under special circumstances, *charge as a standard action* at any point, I could see the point others are trying to make but it just isn't there.
Since charging is a full round action, it cannot be readied by anyone - including characters who are slowed.
Tem, that makes no sense. You are saying that charging is never less than a full round action, and at the same time admitting that if only a standard action is available you can still charge because the rules say so, but you can't even if you have only have a standard action ... huh?
Why is any version charge available as a standard action at all? Yet a version is there. When you ready an action, you take your turn when the readied action is triggered. Only a standard action is available. Both intent and reason seem quite clear to me.
|
Why is any version charge available as a standard action at all?
So people who set up ambushes and gain a surprise round can actually run in and attack, rather than spend their surprise round lining themselves up beautifully to be full attacked if they lose initiative the next round.
The partial charge is basically mainly for surprise rounds.
Bear in mind: You can still ready an action to intercept an enemy, then during his movement put yourself in a position where he must leave your threatened space to continue his movement. Sure, you lose out on the benefits of a charge, but you still get to force an AoO. It's an option that might crop up.
That does indeed make a lot of sense. However, "rush and hit the guy as he opens the door" also makes sense, yet you say it is precluded. Thing is, I think the preclusion is on shaky ground also. It's down to interpretation and that's not a good thing.
We all know were each other stand, and I doubt the opinion is going to change for most of us
so all I have to say it...
where is the FAQ because it is obviously needed and I am quite curious because it actually came up last night in my session.
We all know were each other stand, and I doubt the opinion is going to change for most of us
so all I have to say it...
where is the FAQ because it is obviously needed and I am quite curious because it actually came up last night in my session.
The FAQ is a tab on the product page for the relevant book. It is a work in progress at best, and I've been told that once it is in better shape they will see about making it easier to find.
It takes me a long time to find it and I know where it is!
|
I'm guessing that the RAI are that charging takes 'all your effort' for a round, however much effort you happen to have available. Someone who's restricted to only a standard action isn't suddenly charging better than they can normally - they're worse, they can only move half speed - and they're still using 'all their effort'. Since you can't be both restricted to a standard action, and not restricted to a standard action at the same time, it's something of a false logic to conclude that being able to charge during that round when you're restricted to a standard action is somehow 'superior' to normal. It's basically the time equivalent of what 'grid physics' does to space... IMHO.
However, "rush and hit the guy as he opens the door" also makes sense, yet you say it is precluded.
Well, you can do that if you're surprising the guy. If he's not surprised, then I guess he sees you coming... what you need is a way to make your charging more violent and unpredictable... hence the Rhino Charge Feat. :)
|
|
The PFSRD says this:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.Therefore, you certainly cannot ready a full charge. As to the notion of a "partial charge," it says the following:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.Note that it says if "you are able to take ONLY a standard action on your turn" you may use this option. You can always CHOOSE to forego your move action in a round, but only in conditions which actually prevent you from doing more than a single standard action can you make this "partial charge." Therefore, I conclude that you cannot ready a partial charge without some kind of feat or item that grants an exception.
EDIT: Ninja'd... several times.
It feels silly; I agree that going by RAW it's not possible. However, against mobile enemies who employ invisibility, it may a melee guy's only option. If you cannot ready a charge "once I see that phase spider attack any one of us", how can you fight creatures who can turn invisible again as a swift/free/move action? Hope that your spellcaster buddies save the day?
A lot of issues would have been solved if charging was worded as a standard action that allows you to move up to your speed, double so if you wish to do it as a full-round action. Then it would have interacted a lot better with the rest of the rules (such as readying). Now it's a special full-round action that needlessly complicates the rules by its awkward categorization. Ugh.
A lot of issues would have been solved if charging was worded as a standard action that allows you to move up to your speed, double so if you wish to do it as a full-round action. Then it would have interacted a lot better with the rest of the rules (such as readying). Now it's a special full-round action that needlessly complicates the rules by its awkward categorization. Ugh.
I feel there are a large number of rules handled this way. They affect non-casters disproportionately because spells are somewhat standardized and always self-contained.
I hope that any future edition of the Pathfinder rules focuses not on sweeping changes to gameplay, but rather on smoothing out rules like these so that they're easier to parse and use during play.
Yup. You can ready a partial charge as long as you don't move before hand.
|
|
I think there's some game logic to not allowing ready charges without a special Feat.
Readying an action basically means you're ready to do something / react quickly enough to interupt something another guy is doing. Swing a sword (no full attack though, so swing it once) fire a shot, complete a spell you're only just holding off on completely casting... that sort of thing. While on the grid a charge looks like instant movement, from here to there, in the game world you're actually running across the distance covered. Sounds obvious, I know, but the point is that it takes more time, and is easier to react to, than anything else you can do as a ready action - even if in 'grid time' it's all 'a standard action'. Basically it's easier to react to a guy running towards you across ten feet or so than it is to being shot, or stabbed as you move past a guy ready to do just that. Someone with the Rhino Charge Feat can charge like lightning, and would probably do very well in organised sports...
The existence of Rhino's Charge is evidence of intent. You can not charge as a standard action unless restricted by to a standard action due to events beyond your control.
PS:Partial Charge no longer exist.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.As to looking at supplemental materials for evidence of intent, you are assuming one mind is coherently writing all the material and this is not the case. This is something where there is a grey area and a given writer can include such and it might not raise any flags, yet along spark sufficient discussion on whether it should be allowed or not without a feat.
We can agree that a slowed PC can charge using a standard action.
Most of us can agree that this slowed PC can ready a charge using a standard action.
For those of us that agree so far, why is a slowed PC suddenly more capable than one that is not so debilitated?
The only thing I could see wrong with allowing someone to ready a charge would be if they had already moved during their turn, this likely should be spelled out as not allowed. This shouldn't be an obstacle however as it's just like one can not 5' step then ready a move and for similar reasons.
-James
I thought all rules went through Jason or Sean for final approval. I don't think writing AP's means you get to write new rules.
I do agree that being restricted should not be the only way to charge as a standard action though.
Yup. You can ready a partial charge as long as you don't move before hand.
I think most of us are in agreement this is how it should work, but it isn't absolutely clear that it does with the very strictest interpretation of the rules. Even those that say it isn't also say they would happily house-rule otherwise. It isn't broken and it allows melee characters to be much more effective.
What no-one disagrees is that moving to place yourself in the way of a charging adversary is permitted, it's getting that whack on them without an AoO.
I hope that any future edition of the Pathfinder rules focuses not on sweeping changes to gameplay, but rather on smoothing out rules like these so that they're easier to parse and use during play.
This I can get behind. There are many of the rules interactions that lead to odd ambiguity and incongruity between players/play groups. I too hope that they release a revised version of the Core Rules that enacts changes like you describe.
But readying an action allows you to do something else as well and doesn't lose you your initiative place.
"Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action."
I am still of the opinion if you cannot normally ready a charge, why should you be able to ready a charge now that your actions are even more restricted?
Should you be able to ready a charge without any feats? This requires a good amount of testing. IMO.
It's plain to me that you CAN ready a charge if you're limited to only a standard action on your turn. Reasoning:
.
.
- If you're limited to only a standard action, you can charge (at 1x speed). This IS a standard action: reference the footnote of the action chart, which says, "May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round."
- You can ready any action that you can perform as a standard action.
- Ergo, you can ready a standard action charge if you're staggered, slowed, or acting in a surprise round.
Now, it is patently ridiculous that a nearly-dead person can counter-charge while a fully healthy one cannot. Thus, I choose to believe that it is also possible to ready a standard action charge when you are not seriously inhibited.
Now, it is patently ridiculous that a nearly-dead person can counter-charge while a fully healthy one cannot. Thus, I choose to believe that it is also possible to ready a standard action charge when you are not seriously inhibited.
But, then you'll be dealing with the question that we're all dealing with. Why would Rhino Charge exist if charge works that way? Why would you need a feat that requires 13 STR, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and BAB +5 to ready a charge, if you already can ready a charge?
It is clear that Paizo did not intend for charge to work in that way.
Playing devil's advocate, if you can ready a restricted charge, you should also be able to ready a restricted withdraw, i.e., "If that guy attacks me, I'm readying an action to get away without taking AoOs." Does that seem unbalanced to anyone?
Playing devil's advocate, if you can ready a restricted charge, you should also be able to ready a restricted withdraw, i.e., "If that guy attacks me, I'm readying an action to get away without taking AoOs." Does that seem unbalanced to anyone?
No not really. Since readying is a standard action, this means that you're still not doing anything else with your turn, right? All this is is a withdraw action that is contingent on the actions of someone else. Still worse than a withdraw action, IMO.
Playing devil's advocate, if you can ready a restricted charge, you should also be able to ready a restricted withdraw, i.e., "If that guy attacks me, I'm readying an action to get away without taking AoOs." Does that seem unbalanced to anyone?
Except I kind of fail to see the tactical benefit to this. If you're going to withdraw, why not withdraw on your round? If you're going to hold your ground, why not hold your ground despite the attack?
Personally, I have no problems myself with allowing a readied withdraw. If you want to waste your action to do even less than you normally can, and take an Initiative penalty on top of that, be my guest.
The only thing I can think of is, you could provide flanking for an ally to get sneak-attack damage without any chance of being hurt yourself. I was really just looking at the only other mechanic I'm aware of that allows you to perform a full-round action in less than a full round and seeing what the effect of a readying-a-restricted-charge ruling would be on that.
My opinion is that the RAW states it can't be done. Note the sentence "You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn." Choosing to restrict yourself is not really a restriction. If it was, one could argue that you could spend a move action (say, standing from prone) and then charge, since you are "restricted" to just a standard action left in that round.
That said, I agree with those that say it makes no sense whatsoever that staggered creatures be able to do something that non-staggered cannot. I also like the tactical options this opens up. Therefore, if/when I run a game I will allow this option (on both sides of the screen). Unless errata changes things however, this is a house rule.
I thought you couldn't take more then a five foot step during a readied action. Readying a charge would break that rule and Rhino charge would supersede that rule
I was really just looking at the only other mechanic I'm aware of that allows you to perform a full-round action in less than a full round and seeing what the effect of a readying-a-restricted-charge ruling would be on that.
This is a good counter point to the argument. Lets at things from a different angle. This withdraw case the exact same circumstance as charge. You provide flanking for the melee characters, sneak attack bonuses and also you can use your AoOs against that foe. If the foe chooses to attack you, then you run away. Effectively nullifying that opponent's turn - should they choose to attack you.
This can also turn degenerate when using Teamwork feats from the APG like this one:
Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this
feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus
on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever
you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it
provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
I think you have to realize that Joana's point was illustrative. If you can use your standard action to ready a charge then can you do the same with Withdraw? They both have similar wordings built into them.
You can create a house rule for charge, nothing is stopping you.
I thought you couldn't take more then a five foot step during a readied action. Readying a charge would break that rule and Rhino charge would supersede that rule
No. You can 5' step as part of a readied action so long as you havn't moved earlier in that turn and do not otherwise move as part of the readied action. There is no limit of 5' movement in a readied action. It is perfectly valid to say "I ready an action to move if that enemy mage casts fireball" (assuming you can succeed at the Spellcraft check to identify the fireball spell being cast, at least).
---
As for withdraw: Yes, for the same reasons I stated above for allowing charging. Absolutely by RAW if you're staggered/slowed/in a surprise round; also by logical extension if you're not. I don't really see any significant tactical benefit to doing this over actually using your turn to provide an active benefit, even with Teamwork feats.
Now, it is patently ridiculous that a nearly-dead person can counter-charge while a fully healthy one cannot. Thus, I choose to believe that it is also possible to ready a standard action charge when you are not seriously inhibited.
I agree, so clearly this was not the intent of the rules to stop you charging when you need to as long as you aren't doing anything else.
Now, it is patently ridiculous that a nearly-dead person can counter-charge while a fully healthy one cannot. Thus, I choose to believe that it is also possible to ready a standard action charge when you are not seriously inhibited.But, then you'll be dealing with the question that we're all dealing with. Why would Rhino Charge exist if charge works that way? Why would you need a feat that requires 13 STR, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and BAB +5 to ready a charge, if you already can ready a charge?
It is clear that Paizo did not intend for charge to work in that way.
What is clear to ME is that charge, no matter how it is done, takes up all your available actions. That seems to be the intent of the wording as I see it: You can't move and then charge, you have to charge or nothing. Readying a charge fits in with this, as long as you don't take any other action but ready a charge and then charge.
Rhino Charge exists to do something other than this - it allows you to manoeuvre into position and then charge. You can even back up to give yourself room to charge and then charge, which I think is the real intent of the feat.
Yeah, Rhino Charge still is hugely effective, even when already allowed to Ready a Charge (if you give up other actions).
By USING THOSE ACTIONS, you can back up (giving yourself room for a charge, and of course APPEAR TO BE RETREATING as far as most enemies are concerned)
or even move forward and then ready a charge (which continues more or less forward).
In the latter case, one gets the interrupt advantage of a Readied Action WITH the 2x Move distance either equalling a Full Charge in distance, or bypassing interceding objects/terrain which would have impeded a normal Full Charge. In other words, Rhino Charge is useful even when you don´t give a rat´s ass about the Readied aspect, but just want to ´break up´ your Charge into normal Movement + partial Charge (with Charge restrictions/penalties only applicable to latter portion).
Sure, it´s ¨less amazing¨ if one realizes that Readied Charges are already available in SOME situations per RAW (+any round one doesn´t take full action allowance, if house-ruling), but it`s still very worth while. Personally, I think Acrobatic Step is a useful feat for allowing 5´ steps in difficult terrain, and I would say Rhino Charge is AT LEAST as good as a Feat even when Readied Charges are more broadly allowed, especially for Charge-focused characters (obviously).
If you look at the number of creatures and/or weapons that do double damage or greater on a charge, it's easy to see where a feat that lets your charge the same foe every round would be very, very powerful.
If you look at the number of creatures and/or weapons that do double damage or greater on a charge, it's easy to see where a feat that lets your charge the same foe every round would be very, very powerful.
I have to admit that I don't like the idea of a pouncing creature moving back and then readying an action (with a trivial trigger) to immediately charge again.
If you look at the number of creatures and/or weapons that do double damage or greater on a charge, it's easy to see where a feat that lets your charge the same foe every round would be very, very powerful.I have to admit that I don't like the idea of a pouncing creature moving back and then readying an action (with a trivial trigger) to immediately charge again.
Well I think with the wording of Rhino Charge, that's what they can already do with that feat. With the partial-charge as I would interpret it, it's not possible, as you cannot move in the same round that you charge even if it's a 'partial charge' in a readied standard action.
I have to admit that I don't like the idea of a pouncing creature moving back and then readying an action (with a trivial trigger) to immediately charge again.Well then what I would suggest is an unpopular reading of pounce that would disallow pouncing in a surprise round.
While pounce allows a full attack during a charge, a full attack still requires a full round action. All that pounce allows is to combine that with a charge.
If you are limited to a standard action then you are not empowered to make a full attack via pounce, just that the act of charging doesn't remove it.
This will fit with your worry, also if you will a similar concern of how a staggered/slowed creature with pounce can get a full attack via charging that they couldn't otherwise get.
But as I said, it's not a popular reading.
-James
Like it. I will use it, balances things very well!
Like it. I will use it, balances things very well!If you are limited to a standard action then you are not empowered to make a full attack via pounce, just that the act of charging doesn't remove it.
This will fit with your worry, also if you will a similar concern of how a staggered/slowed creature with pounce can get a full attack via charging that they couldn't otherwise get.
But as I said, it's not a popular reading.
-James
Actually, I don't think many creatures with pounce also gain extra damage on a charge, so it really makes no difference. If you are right next to something and you have no charge multipliers, you are just as well off full-attacking. So ... where is the problem you are trying to fix?
Actually, I don't think many creatures with pounce also gain extra damage on a charge, so it really makes no difference. If you are right next to something and you have no charge multipliers, you are just as well off full-attacking. So ... where is the problem you are trying to fix?
Pounce with rake > full attack.
Actually, I don't think many creatures with pounce also gain extra damage on a charge, so it really makes no difference. If you are right next to something and you have no charge multipliers, you are just as well off full-attacking. So ... where is the problem you are trying to fix?Pounce with rake > full attack.
Full attack with rake > -2 AC
Full attack with rake > -2 AC
Explain how you're getting rake attacks on a normal (non-grapple, non-pounce) full attack.