And what can you do with them?
Last week, we had a situation in game. Our fighter, Locke, was in the process of chasing down a footpad that had managed to pick his pocket. The footpad ran into an out of the way shack and slammed the door shut. Locke, finding the door locked (heh heh), attempted to kick the door down, with no success. Acknowledging Locke's withering gaze, our DM shrugged and said "dude, what did you expect? Your strength is only 15."
That got me thinking. What do the numbers behind stats actually mean? Where does a 15 strength stand in the scheme of things? Obviously, a fighter with a 15 strength is stronger than someone with a 14 and weaker than someone with a 16, but what does it really mean? How strong is he? Does the 15 only mean a +2 bonus?
It gets even worse when you talk about the mental stats. Assuming a 10 intelligence is average for a human, what does a 20 represent? And, if a wizard "only" has a 13 intelligence, is he considered slow?
Beyond this, at what point is your stat considered superhuman, if at all? A fighter's strength can easily hit the mid twenties before endgame. Just how strong is someone with a score of 25? What does it mean to have a 26 in dexterity?
I'd love to get some opinions on this, because I'm kind of stumped. Should someone be suprised that they couldn't kick down a door because they "only" have a 15 strength? And is a 15 weak? Strong?
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Here's the strength chart from the SRD. You can lift you max heavy load over your head, so figure half again for max bench.
2 6 lb. or less 7-13 lb. 14-20 lb.
3 10 lb. or less 11-20 lb. 21-30 lb.
4 13 lb. or less 14-26 lb. 27-40 lb.
5 16 lb. or less 17-33 lb. 34-50 lb.
6 20 lb. or less 21-40 lb. 41-60 lb.
7 23 lb. or less 24-46 lb. 47-70 lb.
8 26 lb. or less 27-53 lb. 54-80 lb.
9 30 lb. or less 31-60 lb. 61-90 lb.
10 33 lb. or less 34-66 lb. 67-100 lb.
11 38 lb. or less 39-76 lb. 77-115 lb.
12 43 lb. or less 44-86 lb. 87-130 lb.
13 50 lb. or less 51-100 lb. 101-150 lb.
14 58 lb. or less 59-116 lb. 117-175 lb.
15 66 lb. or less 67-133 lb. 134-200 lb.
16 76 lb. or less 77-153 lb. 154-230 lb.
17 86 lb. or less 87-173 lb. 174-260 lb.
18 100 lb. or less 101-200 lb. 201-300 lb.
19 116 lb. or less 117-233 lb. 234-350 lb.
20 133 lb. or less 134-266 lb. 267-400 lb.
21 153 lb. or less 154-306 lb. 307-460 lb.
22 173 lb. or less 174-346 lb. 347-520 lb.
23 200 lb. or less 201-400 lb. 401-600 lb.
24 233 lb. or less 234-466 lb. 467-700 lb.
25 266 lb. or less 267-533 lb. 534-800 lb.
26 306 lb. or less 307-613 lb. 614-920 lb.
27 346 lb. or less 347-693 lb. 694-1,040 lb.
28 400 lb. or less 401-800 lb. 801-1,200 lb.
29 466 lb. or less 467-933 lb. 934-1,400 lb.
+10 ×4 ×4 ×4
My max bench is around 225 or thereabouts, so that would put me at a 13 strength. You have to decide if that's "strong" or not. I think that's pretty average for someone who is fairly active and does some hard manual labor. Not particularly strong, but definitely not wimpy.
A 15 strength would, imo, start getting you into the pretty darned strong range. Max bench would be around 300, which, if you've ever been to the gym, isn't that common at all.
The other abilities are a bit harder to quantify. Dexterity covers quite a few different aspects, like manual dex, quickness, agility etc, so, it's feasible someone could have a low dex score, have very deft hands, but not have quick reflexes or acrobatic ability, but nothing is broken down like that.
I think strength is the only one you'll have a solid "RAW" basis to go off of, the rest are subjective.
If you want to have an idea of how strong a 15 Strength is, just look at the carrying capacity, lift above head, and push/drag weights for the characters in the Core Rulebook. (No idea where this is found in the PRPG Core Rulebook though. Probably near equipment.)
I've always found that doors have a pretty high Break DC. (In the prefab 3.5e game I intermittently DM, the average door the party encounters has a break DC of 26.) Doors are meant to keep people out (or sometimes keep them in) so they're hard to break. My players usually smash them with weapons to bash their way through rather than just breaking the door/lock with strength alone. (No party rogue.)
If I knew a wizard with only 13 INT, I would recommend he consider a change in careers. I wouldn't think he was stupid though, unless I were a wizard with 14 INT, or higher.
20 is the highest anyone can basically have in any ability at level 1 (18 on the 3d6 + 2 racial), so 20 is exceptional, like a paragon. For 20 Intelligence? That person is exceptional, probably possessing savant-like powers of memory recall. If they have 20 INT and a wisdom of 8 or lower, they probably would qualify as an idiot savant. (Is there a more politically correct term for this? I don't know it.)
That's just my take though.
Edit: houstonderek posted while I was typing.
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This post has been eaten twice now, so I'm going cliff notes:
Asperger's (Extremely high functioning autism spectrum): High intelligence, low wisdom (6-8), low to high charisma (say, 7+)
High functioning autistic (think Rain Man): High int, low wis (6-8), low cha (6-8 no presence or force of personality)
Non/low functioning autistic (think blank): ??? int (little to no ability to gauge as there is little to no social interaction, rarely to never talks). low wis (3-6) low cha (3-6).
I have two friend's with Asperger's, one is barely in the autism spectrum, the other is fully in Aspy land. The functional difference is charisma.
She is VERY charismatic, but has trouble with social cues, reading body language, sensing someone's motives, and will make inappropriate remarks on occasion). She's @ 15-16 int.
He is shy, doesn't like being around new people, also has trouble with social cues, body language, etc. He's @ 17-19 int.
All autism spectrum people are going to have below average to very low wisdom scores, and the charisma score is going to indicate the degree of autism, the lower, the more severe.
And what can you do with them?Last week, we had a situation in game. Our fighter, Locke, was in the process of chasing down a footpad that had managed to pick his pocket. The footpad ran into an out of the way shack and slammed the door shut. Locke, finding the door locked (heh heh), attempted to kick the door down, with no success. Acknowledging Locke's withering gaze, our DM shrugged and said "dude, what did you expect? Your strength is only 15."
I'd love to get some opinions on this, because I'm kind of stumped. Should someone be suprised that they couldn't kick down a door because they "only" have a 15 strength? And is a 15 weak? Strong?
For one he is doing it wrong.
Ask any fireman/policeman, you don't kick the door down in real life. You push at it with your theighs and shoulders.
You have more leverage/strength using that method; kicking only uses 1/2 your Strength.
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I suspect that you guys are really over-thinking it. RPG Ability scores can't (and probably shouldn't) be applied to people in the real world. They are there to gauge not ACTUAL strength, int, dex, etc, but NARRATIVE strength, int, dex, etc. It's like trying to measure Harrison Ford's actual physical capabilities by looking at what Indiana Jones and Han Solo have done.
Plus, that roll is only for one attempt. It can take two or three good bashes to drop a door.
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Here is some completely useless information.
From my Player's Handbook, from 2nd edition, there was actually a stat based off of your Str. Score for opening doors. It was called "open Doors"
You had to roll a d20 and get the listed number or below. Now someone with a 15 str. had a an Open doors score of 8.
I know the tables are different. I’m going to try and use the "weight allowance" and correspond that with a "light load” because both books mention that is the point at which a character begins to become encumbered by weight.
So for a 15 Str. on the 2nd edition table you had a weight allowance of 55 pounds. This corresponds to a 14 where 58 pounds or less is a light load.
So perhaps the equivalent score from the 2nd edition table of a 15 would be a 14 on the pathfinder table.
Now the light load for a 15 STR in pathfinder is 66 pounds or less. Lets see what the weight allowance is for 66 pounds is in 2nd edition. The closest I can come to is 70 pounds for a 16 STR in 2nd edition. On that STR chart it would give you a 9 or less on a d 20 roll to open a door.
Percentage wise that translates to a 45% chance to open a door.
But I suppose all if this is fairly useless, because on page 175 of the pathfinder rules book they give you the DCs for breaking things based on a Str. check.
As Houstonderek mentioned earlier, perhaps a "bench press" might be a good way to translate a STR score.
The PHB 2 suggests multiplying an ability score by 10 to get the corresponding IQ score, so a 12 intelligence might be a 120 IQ, a 14 intelligence might be a 140 IQ so on and so forth.
The other ability scores are harder to quantify. I think that Houstonderek gave some good examples of charisma and intelligence.
Ill have to think up some other possible ways of giving the abstract ability scores "meaning"
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I suspect that you guys are really over-thinking it. RPG Ability scores can't (and probably shouldn't) be applied to people in the real world. They are there to gauge not ACTUAL strength, int, dex, etc, but NARRATIVE strength, int, dex, etc. It's like trying to measure Harrison Ford's actual physical capabilities by looking at what Indiana Jones and Han Solo have done.
You know what just occurred to me? You can't measure Harrison Ford's capabilities based upon what Indiana Jones and Han Solo have done, but you also have no choice but to measure Indiana Jones' and Han Solo's capabilities based upon what Harrison Ford has done. How crazy is that?
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The maximum weight you can lift over your head used to be called the Military Press and was used to measure a soldier's strength at least as far back as the Roman Empire. If they couldn't lift the weight of their kit (armor, weapons, etc.) over their head, they were in trouble. So, if you use that rating, your strength would be 15, not 13. Given how much you can bench, if that is "only" a 13 STR, then the average person would be well down in single digits. Lifting 225 might be more common in the gym but it is rare outside of that venue.Here's the strength chart from the SRD. You can lift you max heavy load over your head, so figure half again for max bench. ** spoiler omitted **
My max bench is around 225 or thereabouts, so that would put me at a 13 strength. You have to decide if that's "strong" or not. I think that's pretty average for someone who is fairly active and does some hard manual labor. Not particularly strong, but definitely not wimpy.
A 15 strength would, imo, start getting you into the pretty darned strong range. Max bench would be around 300, which, if you've ever been to the gym, isn't that common at all.
The other abilities are a bit harder to quantify. Dexterity covers quite a few different aspects, like manual dex, quickness, agility...
Yeah, but a bench press is a LOT easier than a military press, that's why I added half again to the max load to find the bench weight. I can push 225 up one or two times, I can only military press @150 (I have a bad shoulder for one, and lower back issues due to slight scoliosis. And, according to the SRD, you can military press your max load, so, mine is 150, hence 13 strength.
re: Int
I'm sure I remember reading in one of the 1st edition books that Intelligence was effectively IQ divided by ten
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Interesting. Rather that jack this thread into one about weightlifting, I'll just say that our military presses are about the same but I can't bench nearly 225. Chalk it up to different physiologies and training styles.
Yeah, but a bench press is a LOT easier than a military press, that's why I added half again to the max load to find the bench weight. I can push 225 up one or two times, I can only military press @150 (I have a bad shoulder for one, and lower back issues due to slight scoliosis. And, according to the SRD, you can military press your max load, so, mine is 150, hence 13 strength.
Well, this thread is about "what do the stats mean", so some Charles Atlas chat couldn't be too off topic, could it? ;-)
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Every stat besides Str has no actual concrete measure for what it means. 10 is an average human, and the other numbers equal the measurements of the many fantastic creatures in the game.
But how smart is a great wyrm? That is something you have to decide for yourself. The Int score only tells you how many skill points it has, and a vague idea of either smarter than a human or dumber than a human.
You just blew my mind maaaaanI suspect that you guys are really over-thinking it. RPG Ability scores can't (and probably shouldn't) be applied to people in the real world. They are there to gauge not ACTUAL strength, int, dex, etc, but NARRATIVE strength, int, dex, etc. It's like trying to measure Harrison Ford's actual physical capabilities by looking at what Indiana Jones and Han Solo have done.You know what just occurred to me? You can't measure Harrison Ford's capabilities based upon what Indiana Jones and Han Solo have done, but you also have no choice but to measure Indiana Jones' and Han Solo's capabilities based upon what Harrison Ford has done. How crazy is that?
EDIT: Comparing ability scores to real-life abilities is akin to asking "how much wood could a woodchuck, chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"
or "why did the chicken cross the road?"